Group size

[Old Dog]

I'm probably getting too het up about it, but it does get on my nerves from time to time.

Nah, I understand that. I remember when I first discovered the "gun boards" on the internet -- it was like, "Holy cow, there's some really experienced and fantastic shooters out there!" Then I realized that I've been all around the country (and overseas) and somehow was never witnessing all this great handgun shooting that was seemingly happening in gun clubs and public ranges all around me, yet I kept missing it... I had this epiphany -- "Is is possible that people are lying/exaggerating/embellishing/posing on the internet? Nah!"

A group, on the other hand, tells a much truer story, as both the good shots and the bad shots are permanently recorded - even the ones that missed by feet.

Good point.

 

[wcwhitey]

My group size has doubled over years. I sometimes get frustrated, old eyes and all. But then I look down the range at others targets. I still shoot pretty good!

 

[I6turbo]

I rarely shoot at an indoor range, or at any public range, but the last time I was at an indoor range, probably 6 years ago or so to test out a gun, there were only a couple other guys there. One of them was shooting about 3 different handguns offhand, all looked to be Glocks best I could tell, shooting at targets about 12 yards out. He was consistently shooting magazines full of rounds into groups smaller than the size of the end of a coke can, probably no more than 1 or 2 seconds between shots at most. I felt kind of embarrassed at my shooting compared to his. But I believe seeing that made me quite a bit better shooter today (than I was then) because I knew for a fact that it could be done, so I started trying harder and worked on my technique.

 

[Pat Riot]

About 25 years ago I knew a guy who was kind of a mentor to me regarding reloading. He would show me these really nice targets with 5 holes clustered in a small circle in the bullets eye with little notes in the target listing the gun, the load, the distance. He shot at a range that I never frequented as it was a ways off. So we rarely shot together.
One day I went to my range and there was my friend Mark shooting his revolvers. He had a mess of targets on the bench behind him with a variety of groupings on the targets but none like he usually showed me. He was a little taken aback when he saw me. I commented on how his targets didn’t look as nice as the ones he usually showed me. His response: “What, do you think I would show off my bad ones?”
He fell a couple of notches on my respect ladder but since then I don’t always take other people’s targets at face value.

 

[sgt127]

This is me. In full tactical glory. I’ve always been able to shoot raggedy rat hole sized groups.

A friend pointed out, I’m too slow.

I’m working on faster. Good hits. On a 3/4 size IDPA target, are fine.

 

[35 Whelen]

After watching a bunch of supposedly hot shot shooters and their group sizes I have found I am not nearly as bad as I was thinking. Maybe if I get some tactical pants and a tight t-shirt with a gun logo on it I can even improve a little. I wouldn't want to go up against Hickock 45 but there are quite a few I can still hang with.

It's very rare that I watch gun videos on YouTube as anyone with a camera and an account can appoint themselves an expert. The one exception is Hickock 45. That dude can shoot (without wearing tactical pants), and I have the deepest respect for he and his abilities.

I hunt deer, hogs and javelina on my property and due to the topography and trees, 75 yds. is a pretty long shot. So I committed a few years ago to hunting with handguns (and occasionally a 135+ year old '73 Winchester). I found that shooting handguns with meaningful accuracy took lots of primers, powder, time casting bullets and practicing from field positions. I'm sure my neighbors thought I'd lost my mind during this period. But in this sense, group sizes do matter and the ability to hit the vitals of a deer at 75 yds. with a revolver is quite important. Attaining that goal is gratifying.

Regarding the attire, I'm not sure why some shooters wear the tacticool clothes. Maybe it's so the world will know they are, or have been shooting? Most of the hunters in this part of the world drive ATV's from their camps to their enclosed deer blinds. I can't help but wonder why they bother wearing camo. But in either case, to each his or her own.

35W

 

[kidneyboy]

I often have posted this picture with the intent of showing off a nice gun, but it's also sitting on one of my "bragging" targets, shot during a fairly intensive three-year effort to earn my "Master" rating in NRA Bullseye competition (I never did quite make it.)

View attachment 1126503

This is a 25 yard "timed" target (ten shots in twenty seconds) and the score is enough to make High Master - if you can do it every time. The black is 5.5" and you can see I used most of it. Call it a 3.5" group at best, with a specially prepped match gun, optical sights, custom grip, negligible recoil, an utterly amazing trigger, and thousands of hours of focused training.

Obviously there are plenty of folks who are better at that game than I ever was, but I didn't exactly suck at it either. So my hat is off to anyone capable of that kind of accuracy. And for anyone who claims to be able to cut those groups in half, with stock service pistols, and yet is unknown to anyone in the competition world, I'll call him a damn liar.

I spent a couple decades shooting NRA Bullseye competitions. That, sir, is an excellent target.
Outside of bullseye competitions I have seen very few people shoot well enough offhand to hold the 9 ring at 25 yards. From a rest, without much human interaction, most modern firearms are capable of it.

 

[DMW1116]

Bullseye is a tough game. I think everyone that tries it will shoot a target like that often enough to make them keep trying. My first timed fire target was a 96 and I’ve been trying to tie or beat that for 2 years now. That’s with specific pistols and/or specific loads. Bone stock pistols with factory ammo are right out, except my 22.

 

[.38 Special]

Bullseye made me fully understand my limitations! I simply don't quite have whatever it takes to be a truly great handgun shot. Perhaps that is I why I get annoyed with the extravagant liars...

 

[MrBorland]

A change in life's priorities, so I don't compete any longer, and only rarely make it to the range. That said, I've always started from the position of "fundamentals first", since all good shooting's based on it.

Sight picture, trigger control, one shot at a time. Do that well, with sufficient time, and if your sight picture includes a single small aiming point, you're going to shoot a nice group (keeping in mind the target is just a recording device, not the process)...

...but while shooting 25 yard cloverleafs is a good and useful skill, IMO, it's also a skill looking for an application, so you can open your sight picture and speed things up a bit. But getting these hits still requires good fundamentals. Especially true in stressful situations.


There are some really good shooters out there, so I don't automatically discount claims that don't exceed the limits of credulity and have at least some backing to them. But given the general level of marksmanship at your average range, and that it's easy to be more into the trappings of shooting, rather than actually shooting well, I take the many Youtube and gun forums claims that don't show the target with a grain of salt.

 

[DMW1116]

A lot of people poo poo good groups on paper when talking about action or defensive shooting. If I can’t shoot the absolute best groups I can at the range, it’s only going to get worse when the range becomes bi-directional, all the targets are moving, and I’m shooting as fast as I can.

 

[Bartojc]

Practice, practice, and more practice is key both rifle and handgun. When I started reloading I started shooting more. Its amazing how much one can improve going from shooting a few times a year to a few times a month. Then start shooting every week or more and one can get pretty good with little or no training. I'm not nearly as good as some of the posts I see with group size. When I go to my range or shoot with friends I realize I need to give myself a little credit as I'm not as bad as I think. There's always someone better, and with the internet it doesn't take but a minute to see a nice "group" that you'll likely never duplicate. Don't worry about group size just try to keep making yourself better. That's what I do and most days I come home feeling pretty good. If I have a bad day just try to realize what you were doing wrong and make it better next time out. You'll feel food when you do

-Jeff

 

[Riomouse911]

If I can keep every shot in the 8-ring of a B-27 target, I am happy. 25 yards, 3 yards, two hand, one hand, weak hand, whatever. All I can ever want is placing my shots within the vital zone of a threat.

My final qual targets, after almost 32 years I am calling it quits next week. I picked a diverse group of handguns to cover almost any situation. (Hopefully, I will never need to use one defensively!)

Glock 43X


CZ SP-01:


S&W Model 69:


Ruger LCP II:


CZ 2075 RAMI:


Anything better, and I am really happy.

Stay safe.

 

[Rodfac]

Nicely done, Rio...and many thanks from we civilians that, all too often, took your service and that of your brothers, for granted. PS: Welcome to the over the hill gang! Rod

 

[.38 Special]

A lot of people poo poo good groups on paper when talking about action or defensive shooting. If I can’t shoot the absolute best groups I can at the range, it’s only going to get worse when the range becomes bi-directional, all the targets are moving, and I’m shooting as fast as I can.

I've been thinking on this lately, and have sort-of decided that marksmanship may be fairly far down the list when it comes to defense shooting. The target is usually quite large and quite close...

I will always remember, though, the poor fellow at the CCW qualifications a decade or so back. He was having trouble keeping all his shots on the full-sized human silhouette at seven yards. I can only assume that he was terrified of his gun - a compact Kimber in .45 ACP - and was yanking the trigger with his eyes closed. He certainly had a big brass pair, though - the range master told him that his score didn't quite pass muster, and he argued the point! Assuming he ever mastered the basics, his self-confidence will surely see him through any sort of troubles.

 

[MrBorland]

I've been thinking on this lately, and have sort-of decided that marksmanship may be fairly far down the list when it comes to defense shooting. The target is usually quite large and quite close...

Over time, my definition of "marksmanship" has gone from the common one (hitting the 10-ring) to something more open - seeing what you need to hit, and hitting it when you need to hit it. For someone at the range, it might be a tight group anywhere on the target and under no particular time constraint. The Bullseye shooter sees the 10-ring and needs to shoot it, and do so under the time allotted. The action shooter sees the different scoring zones and shoots as quickly and accurately as possible to best their score. Ideally, the defense shooter will quickly stop the threat without sending errant rounds to possibly hit others. JMO, but given that we're responsible for every round that leaves our weapon, it's important to not divorce "marksmanship" from self-defense concepts, then.

 

[Trashyshoots]

Had to research that one…

https://www.gungoddess.com/products/concealment-leggings

90$? Who do they think they are? Lululemon?

 

[jmorris]

^ He was looking at prices…

 

[buck460XVR]

Did you get younger for saying this? This crap is so common from the older crowd online, I figure there must be some kind of exchange rate where lame smack talking online earns days back on your youth or something, otherwise, I just don’t quite see the motivation.

Worse, with grey in my beard, I still haven’t gotten the memo on when I can start cashing in. If I need to start bad mouthing younger folks to earn days back, I’d rather start early and stay younger for a hell of a lot longer… but maybe that’s the trade off, as if I have to act that bitter just for going blind and grey, maybe I’d rather just let death take me on time instead of bartering to be bitter longer.

It was a joke. So sorry you couldn't see that.

....it was very obviously a joke. No need for anyone to get so defensive, even if the comment did hit a nerve. I sure the comment had more to do with "Posers" and folks that are prone to "Posturing", than folks that actually need the stuff. Comes down to "if you can't walk the walk, don't talk the talk". You see it all the time, in every recreational endeavor. Go to a busy biker bar on Saturday night and you see folks walk in with full leathers and wearing a doo-rag, after parking their Prius out back. Go to a Turkey Shoot at the local trap range and folks show up wearing a brand new Orvis shooting vest and Ray-Ban shooting glasses, and no gun. As for camo......go to those same venues and it too will be rampant. Years ago, when I had little monies to spare, the local Army Surplus store was where I bought most of my work/casual wear, both in camo and Army green. Used to get razzed all the time by folks calling me "Army boy" or "whatch ya huntin' today?". Few years later, cargo pants and camo patterns became a fashion statement and I quit wearin' the stuff just because I didn't want to be identified with those folks. When it's cold out or nightime, my wife and I still wear full leathers when on the Road King. But we take 'em off and leave 'em on the bike when we park, so we aren't called "posers" when we walk in. When I go to the Sporting Clays clubhouse and see the guy with the package folds still on his vest and wearing his yellow shooting glasses in the brightly lit room, I just smile to myself and remember back when I too looked like that, yet had a hard time hittin' the majority of the birds tossed. We have all been there at one time or the other. I got over taking it personal a long time ago.

As for getting old and not being the sniper with a handgun like we used to be......gettin' old sucks. But it still beats the alternative. Failing eyes, loosing strength in our wrists, and a tendency to shake more when shooting freehand, comes with the privilege of living for more than a half century. Still better than not shooting at all.

 

[Bill Raby]

Last time I was at the shooting range there was a couple guys there sharing a scoped hunting rifle. They were shooting at 7 yards and getting 20 inch groups. They were pretty excited about it. Stayed safe and had a good time so its all good. They probably could have done better if they were wearing tactical pants.

What is a lot more important than group size is to see someone at the shooting range that thinks he is hot stuff. Then show him how much better you are at shooting than he is causing him to go home in humiliation. Or at least say that you did on a internet forum. Then everyone can be in awe of your amazing skills.

All the tactical stuff is just silly. If you wear body armor to the shooting range I am going to laugh at you. I usually wear pajamas to the shooting range. Its my day off and I don't care if anyone laughs.

 

[doubleh]

[QUOTE="Bill Raby, post: 12533385, member: 251863" I usually wear pajamas to the shooting range.[/QUOTE]

You just made my day.

 

[21H40]

I usually wear pajamas to the shooting range. Its my day off and I don't care if anyone laughs.

But, they are at least in an approved tactical color like FDE, ODG, or ninja black, right?
Does Magpul make PJ's? Crap. Now I have to reconsider my EDPJ plan...

 

[Hal]

I've been thinking on this and finally figured out why I disagree with it: it's all too easy to line up a one inch target, hit it every once in a while, and then tell yourself "Hey, I can hit a one inch target!" The misses are easily forgotten, even if they missed by feet.

A group, on the other hand, tells a much truer story, as both the good shots and the bad shots are permanently recorded - even the ones that missed by feet.

"Permanently recorded" - why is this important? As proof? As a reminder?
I don't need either. Maybe some do, but, I don't need or want a reminder - and as far as proof goes - who cares? I know exactly what I'm capable of & believe me - I put a much heavier demand on myself than the vast majority of people here could possibly imagine.
But - this isn't about me - it's about "groups".
I'm still not convinced groups tell you anything meaningful about a person's ability to hit a target.
To my way of thinking it's Yoda-like - you either hit or hit not - there is no try.

 

[DMW1116]

If your groups are bigger than the target, it’s going to be tough to hit it reliably.

 

[LiveLife]

For me, groups represent the capability for consistent accuracy. I like to see how well I can do, see what the gun and load can do, hopefully continue to improve or even get to the point that I'm happy with my performance, and then work to keep it up or make it more consistent.

Same for me as "Holes on target speak volumes" about the gun, load and shooter