Group size

[DMW1116]

Ok. You called me out. Here is my response.

 

[LiveLife]

Groups? Nah - like I said, they tell me nothing.

< Bullseye match shooters >

a "group" doesn't measure how accurate the gun & shooter are

I was taught to shoot matches by a seasoned bullseye match shooter and we practiced shooting for groups at 25/50 yards. When developing my USPSA match loads, group size at 10-15-25 yards was absolutely used to determine the most accurate loads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

IMHO, shooting for groups is the standard by which match shooters gauge how consistent/accurate/precise their guns and loads are - https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/loads-for-the-bullseye-shooter/99418

"Serious target shooters ... demand the most accurate guns and ammunition possible. Bullseye shooters ... need extreme accuracy to be competitive. Bullseye competitions place the targets at 25 and 50 yards. At 50 yards, the B-6 target 10-ring is 3.36 inches in diameter, and the X-ring is 1.695 inches in diameter."
​

55 groups were shot using 15-30 shot groups at 25 yards with average measuring 1.90 inches. But depending on the powder/primer/charge, group size varied from 1.35" to 3.28" and how would you have known that without shooting for groups?

Groups #1 - http://www.shootingtimes.com/files/2018/06/45-ACP-BULLSEYE-LOADS-ACCURACY-VELOCITY.jpg
Groups #2 - https://files.osgnetworks.tv/11/files/2018/06/45-ACP-BULLSEYE-LOADS-ACCURACY-VELOCITY-CONT.jpg

For me, I have used 1" at 7 yards, 2" at 10-15 yards, 3" at 25 yards as group size standard by which I deem whether a pistol/load is accurate (Most fullsize and some compact factory stock pistols are capable of this) and those producing 2" at 25 yards to be very accurate.

This listing shows smallest/largest groups shot by factory pistols that produce smaller than 2" groups and larger than 2" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10940688

A group, on the other hand, tells a much truer story, as both the good shots and the bad shots are permanently recorded - even the ones that missed by feet.

"Permanently recorded" - why is this important? As proof?

For comparison testing as group size measured with particular shooting variables.

I did ammunition comparison testing shooting 30,000 rounds of 22LR of various brands/weights/lots out of several 10/22s and Take Down. To "permanently record" groups for comparison using same variable of new 10/22 and T/CR22, I shot 10,000 rounds of around 30 different brands/weights/lots of ammunition at 50/100 yards to sort accuracy of ammunition.

Group size comparison during 4000/2000 round break-in - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/page-2#post-12162737

Group size comparison during accurizing 10/22 and T/CR22 - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/real-world-accurizing-22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/

Compilation of ammunition from most accurate (1/2"-3/4") to least accurate (2"+) at 50 yards - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...t-shipped-pricing.902560/page-5#post-12304852

Yes, holes on target speak volumes.

 

[fxvr5]

I put a much heavier demand on myself than the vast majority of people here could possibly imagine.

Please tell us so we don't have to imagine . . .

 

[.38 Special]

"Permanently recorded" - why is this important? As proof? As a reminder?
I don't need either. Maybe some do, but, I don't need or want a reminder - and as far as proof goes - who cares? I know exactly what I'm capable of & believe me - I put a much heavier demand on myself than the vast majority of people here could possibly imagine.
But - this isn't about me - it's about "groups".
I'm still not convinced groups tell you anything meaningful about a person's ability to hit a target.
To my way of thinking it's Yoda-like - you either hit or hit not - there is no try.

Well, let's say you have a one inch target, and you miss it five times. What did you learn? Nothing, other than that you can't hit that target at that distance.

Now, put up a 12" paper with a 1" aiming point. Shoot it five times. Even if you miss the aiming point every time, you still have several useful bits of information.

 

[Hangingrock]

I have a basic handgun range on the property. With that said past the mid point of my seventh decade we mostly shoot 10Yds an under. Occasionally we still shoot 25 & 50 yards but not that often. .

 

[Varminterror]

I'm still not convinced groups tell you anything meaningful about a person's ability to hit a target.
To my way of thinking it's Yoda-like - you either hit or hit not - there is no try.

Groups certainly tell you whether a person is able to hit the same place more than once. So you can either hit the same place more than once, or you can’t.

By its nature, games designed around “hitting targets, or not” are always more forgiving of precision, of raw ability to hit where intended, than games designed around group shooting. If a shooter can’t put bullets very near eachother into a group, they inherently would not be able to pass/fail hit a target of that size either…

 

[MrBorland]

Groups certainly tell you whether a person is able to hit the same place more than once. So you can either hit the same place more than once, our you can’t.

...or even what you're aiming at even a single time .

On these gun boards some claim to make head shots on squirrels with their Ruger Mk .22LR pistol. Sure, that'd be preferable, but how many of these folks are actually able to do it? Seems to me those who can do it consistently would should be able to print a very respectable group. Conversely, I suspect those head-shot advocates who can't print a nice group on demand have selective memory.

By its nature, games designed around “hitting targets, or not” are always more forgiving of precision, of raw ability to hit where intended, than games designed around group shooting.

+1

...ever notice "plinking" isn't an Olympic sport?

 

[21H40]

I quit shooting for "groups" decades ago.
IMHO it's largely a waste of time.
I mean - why bother?

Without the repetition of groups, how do you know the accidental hit from the intended hit? I guess you don't need them if you're already at the top of your game and don't want to improve.

YMMV

 

[Hal]

...or even what you're aiming at even a single time .

On these gun boards some claim to make head shots on squirrels with their Ruger Mk .22LR pistol. Sure, that'd be preferable, but how many of these folks are actually able to do it? Seems to me those who can do it consistently would should be able to print a very respectable group. Conversely, I suspect those head-shot advocates who can't print a nice group on demand have selective memory.



+1

...ever notice "plinking" isn't an Olympic sport?

Well, there is the biathlon....

Come to think of it. Speaking of Bullseye. Since that's scored by where you hit, not how close together your shots are, that's another example of "group size" not having any meaning. A person could shoot an outstanding "group" and still lose to someone that put a larger group of shots into a higher-scoring area of the target.

 

[Jim Watson]

That is what those screws on the sight are for, so you can make your group center on the target.

 

[MrBorland]

A person could shoot an outstanding "group" and still lose to someone that put a larger group of shots into a higher-scoring area of the target.

I once lost a match like that. But with sights properly adjusted, I won a bunch of others, which minute-of-zipcode groups wouldn’t have

 

[Varminterror]

Speaking of Bullseye. Since that's scored by where you hit, not how close together your shots are, that's another example of "group size" not having any meaning. A person could shoot an outstanding "group" and still lose to someone that put a larger group of shots into a higher-scoring area of the target.

And that guy with the larger group, centered on the target will lose to a guy who shot a smaller group, centered on the target…

“Accuracy” is a matter of adjusting your sight, aligning where your group where you want it to go. “Precision” is being able to repeatedly put bullets in the same place.

Really can’t adjust sights without shooting groups.