Gun counter advice

igotta40 said:
Today at BassPro I overheard a conversation the counter guy was having with a customer who asked about a entry level AR-15. Basically he was advised to try online vendors like Palmetto because their cheapest ones are Black Rain for $699. No big deal, But then he was told that the cheaper ones have a 1: 9 barrel twist, and those aren’t accurate. I’m not an expert on rifle barrels, but that sounded like BS to me. I’m starting to think BassPro is just somewhere to go when you need cargo pants.
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I've found that more times than not, (at places like Bass Pro/Cabela's, and Academy) the person behind the counter has very little knowledge about what they're selling, and that's fine if they don't. What gets under my skin is when they try to talk like they do.
A few years ago I was in the local Cabela's buying some H4831 powder. All they had were 1lb jugs and while talking to a guy behind the counter "that reloaded also". I told him I wished I could find some 5 or 8lb jugs of it, and he laughed pretty loudly, and also asked me pretty loudly to attract the attention of everybody around "what are you going to do with 8lbs of powder???" Of course everybody near the counter stopped and looked. My response was "same thing I'll do with 1lb, just 8 times...:D Then I got serious and explained how powder may vary slightly from lot to lot, talking about standard deviations, and extreme spreads (in as great a detail as I could at the time), AND adding the calibers I loaded with it, AND the velocities I was getting with the charge weights for each. Also results of a few other powders I used and had tried. Then he just stood there with a blank look on his face. Point proven. :cool:
Here and there I run across someone knowledgeable.
LGS is a totally different story.
 
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TacticalJanitor said:
You don't shop?
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There are many means of gathering information about a gun or for that matter anything including to "shop" so that I can physically handle the gun or product but shopping does not rely upon a gun counter clerk to do anything but hand me the gun and then put it back. There is no secret source of information that they, a gun store counter clerk has a secret decoder ring for, that I am not privy to and cannot find and thus utilize. This forum for example. I have heard it said "why should I trust strangers on a forum" and you know, why should I trust a guy behind the counter more so. I will take into account an opinion from a forum from a person who actually owns and has experience with the gun long before some store clerk who does not.
 
TacticalJanitor said:
I agree. LGS counter guys are just people like everyone else.

Last month I was hunting for a clean Gen 4 Glock 19 and found one locally that was painted purple. The young man behind the counter told me (with a straight face) that it, "came directly from Glock that way".

I told him that I'd have to check with my wife before I buy it...then didn't go back. One good fib deserves another. :rofl:
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Lot's of purple Glocks available. https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/purple-glock-pistols/
 
Local Cabela’s employees act like you’re doing them a favor shopping there. I’ll go there to shoulder some guns, listen to their BS and then buy elsewhere, their prices are far from the best and their advice is worse. On the other hand at a small local shop a sales guy was trying to sell an older gentleman (mid 70’s about 150 lbs max) his first deer rifle. Yep a 300 mag, the old guy told him no shots over 100 yards. I had to but in and tell him he might hate life after shooting it, I think he left with a 308. The same sales guy looked at the barrel end of a shotgun when I asked him if it was fix or screw in chokes, he gave me the gun and said “here, look at it, I’m not sure.” Good helps hard to find these days.
 
3Crows said:
I will take into account an opinion from a forum from a person who actually owns and has experience with the gun long before some store clerk who does not.
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Except one has money involved and will either sing praise or disparage.

All gun counter "advice" goes through one ear and out the other.
 
Howland937 said:
We've all heard dubious claims and sketchy advice from across the retail counter at some point. Costs about the same as the advice you get here but it's not unique to the firearms industry.

The thing I'd take most issue with is an employee suggesting a potential customer go spend their nickels elsewhere. Guy needs demoted back to stocking shelves whether he was right or not.
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Actually that gives him more credibility to me.
 
With gun counter guys at a big store you are most likely dealing with someone with a passing knowledge of one type of gun, for example semi auto pistols. But when it comes to hunting rifles, or trap shotguns etc. for example they dont know much. It is a rare person in an urban setting who knows well all these things.
 
Barnfixer said:
Local Cabela’s employees act like you’re doing them a favor shopping there. I’ll go there to shoulder some guns, listen to their BS and then buy elsewhere, their prices are far from the best and their advice is worse. On the other hand at a small local shop a sales guy was trying to sell an older gentleman (mid 70’s about 150 lbs max) his first deer rifle. Yep a 300 mag, the old guy told him no shots over 100 yards. I had to but in and tell him he might hate life after shooting it, I think he left with a 308. The same sales guy looked at the barrel end of a shotgun when I asked him if it was fix or screw in chokes, he gave me the gun and said “here, look at it, I’m not sure.” Good helps hard to find these days.
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Easy way to check full choke if a US dime will not fit in the muzzle its full choke
 
OP here. I guess what I have issue with is the employee’s blanket dismissal of an entire category of rifle barrel. Why would manufacturers knowingly continue to produce inherently inaccurate products, even if they are entry level items? Where’s the logic in that? Maybe he could have worded his advice differently, like maybe explain the reasons for a variety of available barrel twists.
 
rizbunk77 said:
Actually that gives him more credibility to me.
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Not me. He's either a crappy employee trying to stick it to his employer or he's a crappy employee peddling "junk" because that's the best he can do. If he doesn't believe in the product he's selling he should either sell somewhere else or not be selling.
igotta40 said:
he could have worded his advice differently, like maybe explain the reasons for a variety of available barrel twists.
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He may not have had the words...just passing off something he'd heard from someone else in trying to seem informed.
 
I was at a LGS in GA a while back and one of the counter warriors was holding a .50 desert Eagle, the other one was trying to talk him out of it saying it was over kill, I decided to listen for a while and the second guy just blew it when he said " well even if you don't hit him even if you are close it will take him out"
 
If a 1-9 twist barrel is inaccurate it's because it's a sub-par barrel. It isn't up to snuff for the very long, heavy, bullets almost everyone seems to prefer now but pretty dam good in the weights it's designed to shoot.

Back to the OP: My LGS owner knows what he is talking about. In other stores the only question I ask sales staff is "Do you have so and so?".
 
Many years behind the counter. When asked about a choice, I tried to provide pros and cons. Shotguns, black powder and reloading were my areas of expertise plus I’m a pretty good appraiser but I offer opinions only if asked. Had coworkers that drove me up a wall with their misguided advice.
 
A 1:9 barrel will be a tack driver out to 300 yards with a 69 SMK. At 600 yards, that 69 SMK will float like a spit ball. A bud of mine was shooting some brand of 72 or 75 grain bullet out to 600 yards in a 1:9 barrel, and the bullets were not tumbling. But, as a general rule, anything heavier than a 69 grain bullet will be unstable in a 1:9 barrel.

I remember the year Colt Industries had a table on Commercial Row at Camp Perry. I handled the HBar's on the table, asked the Colt Executive what barrel twist, and was told they were 1:9. Then I asked why Colt was not installing barrel twists that I could use out to 6 00 yards, and with that, I got a lecture from the Colt Executive. Colt was selling all the 1:9 HBars it could make and was not going to change anything. Anyone who wanted different was just an idiot. I was gobsmacked by the arrogance of the Executive behind the table. Due to the shock, I was not quick enough on the take to ask why the heck Colt spent all that time and money bringing people and rifles out to Camp Perry which none of the shooters could use in the competition. It really showed what a bunch of clueless clucks were running Colt.

Anyway, there was a time when 1:9 was a de facto standard, and I am going to say, if you stick with 69 grain or lighter bullets, the rifle will group just fine at 300 yards. Which is, a long way out there.
 
The nearest cabelas to me has an old retired cop, and the gentleman still will wear his badge sometimes. He knows 1911s, s&w revolvers, and gives advice quietly and in small doses. I’d rather deal with him than anyone else! And to some, it’s just a job. And some are newbies to the shooting sports, and are enamored with being around it constantly… I happen to like our local Scheels; prices are very good, and they have things others don’t. But their full time gun department guys are waaaaay differently from the “helpers”. And the kids at the registers? WOW!! I bought a set of 30-06 dies awhile back, and the price was wrong. They called back to the firearm guys… the conversation was both hilarious and cringeworthy!!! All in all, I’d say many of the “internet warriors” have probably given stupider advice… and I mourn the loss of the grungy old lgs with a grizzled wizened old character behind the counter; genre deaf as a post, but he was very much acquainted with every item on the shelves and racks, or in the pile of old boxes in the corner…
 
1/9” twist not accurate?
Please don’t tell that to my two DPMS carbines!
Either, with 40-65gr Sierra, Hornady, or Nosler bullets will shoot under 1” 5-shots @100yds.
Also, my Remington Mod-7 .223 w/ 1/12”. With 55gr Sierra BTSPT GameKings it’s 1/2 MOA.
And, to top it off, my M700 in .22-250 is 1/14” and shoots occasional 1-hole groups at 100yds. As many as you want through the same 3/8” hole!

No, they won’t shoot 80gr MatchKings into 3” at 600yds like my RRA NM AR with a 1/8” Wilson barrel, but they aren’t MATCH rifles either…
And none will shoot 55gr FMJ ball much better than 1.5moa, if that…
 
rizbunk77 said: ↑Actually that gives him more credibility to me.

Howland937 said:
Not me. He's either a crappy employee trying to stick it to his employer or he's a crappy employee peddling "junk" because that's the best he can do. If he doesn't believe in the product he's selling he should either sell somewhere else or not be selling...
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No.......he's the best kind of employee. The one that knows what he's talking about and actually cares about customer satisfaction. "Believing in your product" has nothing to do with anything if that product is the wrong tool for the job.

If someone goes into a Subaru dealership and says "I need a truck or SUV capable of towing a 8,000 pound load" and the salesman says "I got just the Outback for you!".......thats a terrible salesman. The Outback isn't rated for half that, and a good salesman would know. Referring the customer to a Ford dealership would be the right thing to do as nothing in the Subaru lineup is intended for that load.

Ever see the movie "Miracle on 34th Street"?
There is a scene in that movie where the Macy's Santa Claus, Kris Kringle, tells a shopper to go to another store for her sons Christmas gift. Valuing his honesty and helpfulness, she tells his boss that she will now become a loyal Macy's customer.

Short term success is selling what you have regardless of the buyers needs.
Long term success is built on trust. When your customer finds out that your salesman gave bad advice, you ain't gonna get a second chance.
 
@3Crows is exactly what I do. When I walk into lgs I have done my research and I just rely on folks to get me gun out case to handle myself or last couple I walk in ask do you have x, yes, what is price, x, I'll take it.

I don't discount a kbiwledgable lgs owner but it is my money to spend
 
Howland937 said:
Not me. He's either a crappy employee trying to stick it to his employer or he's a crappy employee peddling "junk" because that's the best he can do. If he doesn't believe in the product he's selling he should either sell somewhere else or not be selling.

He may not have had the words...just passing off something he'd heard from someone else in trying to seem informed.
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Having been on the other side of the sales counter quite a bit, I'm on the side of the employee suggesting "better options for the price." The stories I could share of trying to explain why my personal pick would be Item A over Item B, or getting talked to by The Boss for being brutally honest with the regular, returning customers. Let's just say one of those conversations involved advising a customer to buy a 50 round box of Major Manufacturer "law enforcement issue handgun ammo" instead of a 20 round box of questionable boutique handgun ammo that may have had been the acronym for Rest In Peace. And then the number of times people told me they could buy a Smith and Ruger XFG-8600 "down the street" for a price that was below our cost on the same gun... :scrutiny:

As for .223 barrel twist rates, I have a CZ527FS with a 20" 1-9" twist barrel, a Colt 6920 with a 16" 1-7" twist barrel, and an Armalite M15 National Match rifle with a 20" Wilson 1-7" twist barrel chambered by White Oak Armament. I've long argued that barrel and bullet quality are FAR more important than specific twist rates. A good 1-7" twist barrel like the Wilson on my match rifle will shoot knots with 52 grain match bullets, and still handle the long 80 grain match bullets for reliably shooting beyond 300 yards in windy conditions. The CZ seems to shoot the little 52 grain match bullets equally as well as it does a 65 grain Sierra Gameking SPBT. And the Colt M4gery will do 1.5-2 MOA with either a good lot of 55 grain M193 type ball ammo, or my standard 69 grain Nosler Custom Competition match loads, which is probably all my eyes are good for with a red dot now that my age will start with a 4 on my next birthday. The limiting factory for any of these 3 rifles is the ammo quality, not the twist rate.
 
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