Fish828
Member
i think you acted appropriately. i would have ended the gun show after he dry fired the first gun after asking him not to. and congrats on picking up a bersa .380, i am quite fond of mine
Gun etiquette
- Thread starter sammoh
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sacp81170a
Member
Having taught gun safety, RO'd, RSO'd, taught CCW, etc., I've found that it's not at all uncommon for people who think they "know about guns" to be completely ignorant of gun etiquette and safety rules.
You were in a difficult situation but you could have turned it into a teaching opportunity. Apparently B was completely unaware of any of the rules of gun safety or thought the situation was so casual that they weren't called for. I would have pointed out each safety violation when it happened and explained the proper procedure immediately. Then, if he continued to ignore the rules, I'd have raked him over the coals and told him to get out.
Immediate correction in a courteous manner is all that can be expected of you in such a situation. You made some assumptions about B that turned out not to be true and didn't re-align your thinking quickly enough. It's happened to me, and I've gotten to the point that the very first violation brings a firm, quick and courteous correction. After that, the courteous part becomes more curt.
You did the best you could under the circumstances. Too bad more people aren't as serious about gun safety as you are.
Stony Lane
Member
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2005
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- 32
This is an example of why it is much more difficult to teach men how to shoot. Many men (like "A") have too much ego or macho or ... to admit they don't know everything about guns.
Our mass media is filled with "virtual" gun use, but actual gun ownership and knowledge is fairly low. Many men feel they have to pretend and then get defensive if questioned or corrected.
Women are much more open and make better students. They don't have to be instant experts.
Our mass media is filled with "virtual" gun use, but actual gun ownership and knowledge is fairly low. Many men feel they have to pretend and then get defensive if questioned or corrected.
Women are much more open and make better students. They don't have to be instant experts.
Ok I had to stop reading half way through. First of all, I would advise you not to even show you guns to people who you don't consider your close friends. That's how houses get robbed. Even if it's not from the guy who you showed the guns to. Second, never leave anyone alone, especially someone who you don't know well, with any gun. And third, my family comes from a long line of hunters and competitive shooters, ex marines and the like. When you hand a gun to someone, even though they watched you clear it, they shoud check it again, before even looking at it. I took a couple of guys who worked for me for years to me uncles home, "he has his own keys to a private club", he showed a gun he had just finished to the guy , only after going over the safty aspects I mentioned. The one guy "also ex-marine', took the gun, and failed to rack it to safty check it, and my uncle bitch slapped the guy, right there. My uncle was in his late 60's at the time, i'll never forget it, and my friend won't ever forget to check a gun the proper way again. After we left, he said your uncle was a DI right, I said yep, and he thanked uncle Mike for the valuable lesson. Enough said
rico700
Member
No grey area whatsoever. Your right and they are wrong!
You were not out of line at all and I would trade in A & B for More S&W.
You were not out of line at all and I would trade in A & B for More S&W.
Treo
member
In this situation, where its clear that both guns were unloaded, I would be more concerned about Bs disrespect of my property than of a safety violation. Maybe A should be the one to teach him fire arms safety.
crankshop1000
Member
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2007
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- 372
Sorry Sammoh, you should have left the guns in the safe if they are such delicate treasures (they aren't). My humble opinion is that if you offer the guns for strangers to handle and inspect (which is strange behavior in itself) you should have expected them to get handled.Sounds like you might have some control issues to deal with.
Frankly, after he pulled the trigger while pointing the gun at your stomach.....a body check into the nearest hard surface seems to be called for. Even if he didn't know the 4 Rules, that behavior is so self-evidently stupid that it deserves a painful response to drive the lesson home.
At the very least, he'd have gotten a twisted wrist when I took the pistol back from him QUICKLY, and he would NEVER, under any circumstances, handle another of mine.
At the very least, he'd have gotten a twisted wrist when I took the pistol back from him QUICKLY, and he would NEVER, under any circumstances, handle another of mine.
THe Dove
BOOMER SOONER!!!
Your rules
I think you were correct in putting the guns back in the safe and not going any further. B obviously does not understand, know or respect safe handling of firearms. That said, I think A needs to relax and just stick to watching TV with B until B wants to learn and practice safe firearm handling techniques. I never hand a loaded weapon or a weapon and rounds to any other person at the same time.
I learned this the hard way a long time ago when I was young and dumb. I just about got shot by a person who claimed he knew how to handle revolvers. I knew him for several months and he had loaded some ammo for me so I thought he was gun savvy. Well, I handed him a loaded 45 long Colt, he automatically cocked it and pulled the trigger. It shot about 2 feet from me, before I had a chance to tell him anything. Definately my fault for handing him a loaded firearm. One lesson I learned very quick. He and I both were scared stiff.
The Dove
I think you were correct in putting the guns back in the safe and not going any further. B obviously does not understand, know or respect safe handling of firearms. That said, I think A needs to relax and just stick to watching TV with B until B wants to learn and practice safe firearm handling techniques. I never hand a loaded weapon or a weapon and rounds to any other person at the same time.
I learned this the hard way a long time ago when I was young and dumb. I just about got shot by a person who claimed he knew how to handle revolvers. I knew him for several months and he had loaded some ammo for me so I thought he was gun savvy. Well, I handed him a loaded 45 long Colt, he automatically cocked it and pulled the trigger. It shot about 2 feet from me, before I had a chance to tell him anything. Definately my fault for handing him a loaded firearm. One lesson I learned very quick. He and I both were scared stiff.
The Dove
Kimber1911_06238
Member
you did the right thing, only i would have put them away the first time he pointed the gun at me and dry fired it after specifically being asked not to do so. I mean come on, that's rediculous.
When B dropped the slide on an empty chamber, the red flags probably started flying. At that point, he flunked the one and only test, how many more would he fail? I would not want to find out. A should've said something, but she didn't. More red flags. Right then, I'd have packed the stuff away. I'm guessing any heartburn at that point was not escalated to the levels you actually experienced.
Bottom line(s): 1. regardless what you or A thought, B is not a safe gun handler. 2. You may want to rethink your desire to show off your guns to a stranger (wait till A drops in by herself). 3. Think B. might have been pushing your buttons because A's been talking you up on the way to your house? Alphas being what they are, firearms don't do well in pissing contests. Not that you chose to be actively in one.
Bottom line(s): 1. regardless what you or A thought, B is not a safe gun handler. 2. You may want to rethink your desire to show off your guns to a stranger (wait till A drops in by herself). 3. Think B. might have been pushing your buttons because A's been talking you up on the way to your house? Alphas being what they are, firearms don't do well in pissing contests. Not that you chose to be actively in one.
Couple of questions which are somewhat on topic.
What do you think the default dry firing position is? Obviously if they ask you not to, it shouldn't occur. But most people I know who let others handle their pistols seem to understand that they might be racked and dry fired a couple of times. I think this is especially true when they hand their guns to people they know have at least some handling experience (like rudimentary safety precautions...). Now, if someone does it over and over, I think most people would start to get annoyed.
Along the same lines, what about in a gun store? I'm sure it happens, but I've never heard anyone scolded about it. What is the consensus on this, how much handling is too much?
What do you think the default dry firing position is? Obviously if they ask you not to, it shouldn't occur. But most people I know who let others handle their pistols seem to understand that they might be racked and dry fired a couple of times. I think this is especially true when they hand their guns to people they know have at least some handling experience (like rudimentary safety precautions...). Now, if someone does it over and over, I think most people would start to get annoyed.
Along the same lines, what about in a gun store? I'm sure it happens, but I've never heard anyone scolded about it. What is the consensus on this, how much handling is too much?
stubbicatt
Member
I think you have a right to be upset. It is very upsetting having a firearm pointed at me. In retrospect, perhaps start out by asking, politely, does the new guy know how to handle firearms? He'll say yes. Ask him further do you know not to point it at anybody, to keep it muzzle down, and to not dryfire it? Ask him if he knows what dryfire is. If in fact he does know all these things, he may be a bit perturbed at you, thinking perhaps that you are patronizing him, but he will let it go.
After the "SHOW AND TELL" is over, explain that in the past you have had people who were not properly schooled in the safe handling of firearms, and that you don't disrespect him or anything. He should understand. And good communication is the start of a good friendship.
After the "SHOW AND TELL" is over, explain that in the past you have had people who were not properly schooled in the safe handling of firearms, and that you don't disrespect him or anything. He should understand. And good communication is the start of a good friendship.
beaucoup ammo
Member
They were in YOUR home. They should respect YOUR wishes especially if they pertain to YOUR firearms.
I believe you showed remarkable restraint in not tossing "B" out on his ear!
I believe you showed remarkable restraint in not tossing "B" out on his ear!
Im283
Member
Well I for one would not be pulling guns out to show off in front of people I was not personally friends with. I don't blame you for wanting to show off for your friend, but I also wonder if you weren't wanting to show off even more for the guy you did not really know.
Also there have been several comments about knocking him around ( or words to that extent.) Put a gun in some dudes hand, then assault him for being dumb???? Who is the dumb one here?
Also you do not invite someone into your home then throw them out on their ear, as some have also suggested. That is just plain rude and has no place.
What should be learned here is to keep your guns put up when someone you do not really know is in your home.
I do not fault B, the guy obviously did not have real firearms knowledge and was probably trying to fake it in front of A.
Also there have been several comments about knocking him around ( or words to that extent.) Put a gun in some dudes hand, then assault him for being dumb???? Who is the dumb one here?
Also you do not invite someone into your home then throw them out on their ear, as some have also suggested. That is just plain rude and has no place.
What should be learned here is to keep your guns put up when someone you do not really know is in your home.
I do not fault B, the guy obviously did not have real firearms knowledge and was probably trying to fake it in front of A.
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sammoh
Member
Frankly, I didn't care if B knew what kind of guns I had. As it is, A, her father and I have had a little "Look what I got!" thing going for years when it comes to firearms. As such, it was more habit than anything to show off my newly acquired firearms to A... despite the presence of B. I had met B and spent a weekend in camp with him when A brought him along for a camping trip. My thoughts of him from that time were that he was an intelligent and respectful man.
In any case, I've had a telephone discussion with A and she understands. She stated as some of you had stated that I should have taken the time to show B proper gun safe handling rules and procedures rather than just taking the handgun from him and putting everything away. Perhaps so, I was just very upset that he seemed to blatantly disregard my request.
As for the guns being fragile or jewels, they're not really quite so expensive or fragile. I picked up the clone (RIA) for $350 NIB and the Bersa for $225 NIB. I bought the S&W used for $500. Yeah, I burned up my gun funds for the next couple months all in one day but hey, what can I say... I'm hooked. Now then, no, it wasn't about their cost or fragility. It was mainly I was shocked and p/o'ed at the lack of safe handling and extremely p/o'ed at the lack of respect that he didn't follow my request nor did he follow suite in how A and I handled the guns.
As for B trying to push my buttons by doing what he did because A talked me up while coming over, if that was the case, he and I will be at odds for a long time. In my family and my home, respect and trust are key. My father was in the army and beat respect into me as I grew up. 20yrs of martial arts training has taught me honor and respect. A knows all of this. If B was just trying to get a rise out of me by deliberately breaking my rules with my possessions, things will go badly for him in my home. I trust A's choice in friends as well as her choice in men. I figured this one wouldn't be a problem.
As I said before, I spoke with A. She understands and will speak with B. I'll have to see what the outcome of this will be.
Sam
Btw, I wouldn't have thrown him out on his ear since I did invite him in and since he is also quite close to A. On the other hand, had he threatened my family or me, I'd have done worse than throw him out on his ear but aside from that, no, I'd not have taken physical action against him.
Sam
In any case, I've had a telephone discussion with A and she understands. She stated as some of you had stated that I should have taken the time to show B proper gun safe handling rules and procedures rather than just taking the handgun from him and putting everything away. Perhaps so, I was just very upset that he seemed to blatantly disregard my request.
As for the guns being fragile or jewels, they're not really quite so expensive or fragile. I picked up the clone (RIA) for $350 NIB and the Bersa for $225 NIB. I bought the S&W used for $500. Yeah, I burned up my gun funds for the next couple months all in one day but hey, what can I say... I'm hooked. Now then, no, it wasn't about their cost or fragility. It was mainly I was shocked and p/o'ed at the lack of safe handling and extremely p/o'ed at the lack of respect that he didn't follow my request nor did he follow suite in how A and I handled the guns.
As for B trying to push my buttons by doing what he did because A talked me up while coming over, if that was the case, he and I will be at odds for a long time. In my family and my home, respect and trust are key. My father was in the army and beat respect into me as I grew up. 20yrs of martial arts training has taught me honor and respect. A knows all of this. If B was just trying to get a rise out of me by deliberately breaking my rules with my possessions, things will go badly for him in my home. I trust A's choice in friends as well as her choice in men. I figured this one wouldn't be a problem.
As I said before, I spoke with A. She understands and will speak with B. I'll have to see what the outcome of this will be.
Sam
Btw, I wouldn't have thrown him out on his ear since I did invite him in and since he is also quite close to A. On the other hand, had he threatened my family or me, I'd have done worse than throw him out on his ear but aside from that, no, I'd not have taken physical action against him.
Sam
romma
Member
A+B= D.O.A. for somebody soon it sounds like...
Sounds like you spazzed out and embarrassed yourself to me.
Like crankshop1000 said, guns (mine at least) aren't made of crystal and if I hand my 1911 to some kid who I just met. Who has no prior gun experience, I wouldn't be surprised at all when he works the action and controls.
What do you expect him to do? Pet it gently while gazing upon its ultimate glory?
Before invoking the real sophisticated "My house my rules" notion of getting along that other posters have suggested, you might try to explaining what you meant before handing him another gun to man-handle.
Many people don't know that dropping the slide on an empty gun creates unnecessary wear. I suspect that most people don't know what "Don't dry-fire" means either.
/Dry firing doesn't hurt modern weapons that aren't rimfire. I dry-fire my weapons 1000's and 1000's of times in practice.
Like crankshop1000 said, guns (mine at least) aren't made of crystal and if I hand my 1911 to some kid who I just met. Who has no prior gun experience, I wouldn't be surprised at all when he works the action and controls.
What do you expect him to do? Pet it gently while gazing upon its ultimate glory?
Before invoking the real sophisticated "My house my rules" notion of getting along that other posters have suggested, you might try to explaining what you meant before handing him another gun to man-handle.
Many people don't know that dropping the slide on an empty gun creates unnecessary wear. I suspect that most people don't know what "Don't dry-fire" means either.
/Dry firing doesn't hurt modern weapons that aren't rimfire. I dry-fire my weapons 1000's and 1000's of times in practice.
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Im283
Member
Sam I must have missed in the thread that you sort of knew the guy and had already developed an opinion of him. In that case I might have broke out the new guns too.
I don't understand why he dry fired them when you asked him not too, hard to believe he did not know what that mean, but then who knows.
If someone threatens you , well that is different. Glad to read that tossing him out was not what you were going to do. Sounds to me like he made an ass out of himself by up and leaving.
he ought to have apoligized for the dry fire and made some ammends.
I don't understand why he dry fired them when you asked him not too, hard to believe he did not know what that mean, but then who knows.
If someone threatens you , well that is different. Glad to read that tossing him out was not what you were going to do. Sounds to me like he made an ass out of himself by up and leaving.
he ought to have apoligized for the dry fire and made some ammends.
waterhouse
Member
From an outside perspective, my guess is that B knows very little about guns. If your opinion of him after spending a weekend camping with him was that he was intelligent and respectful, I'd guess you were probably correct.
While it is true that while in your house and handling your guns he should have followed your rules, I'm guessing he had no idea what your rules meant (i.e. he was unfamiliar with the terms you were using.) Being a man in front of his recent female friend, he may have been hesitant, as most men are, to admit that he had no idea what you were talking about when you were saying things like double action single action dry fire magazine slide release.
When you took your guns back, I'm willing to be he had no idea why, or why you were upset.
As with many problems, I think the root of this one lies in communication, or lack thereof. I've met some folks who seemed like nice people but turned out to be real problems on a simple weekend camping trip. If B was decently behaved for 48 hours out in the woods, he might not be that bad a guy.
This might be a good opportunity to get A to sit down with B, go over the 4 rules, explain some terminology, and convert another gun owner into a safe shooter. Even if she ends up dumping him shortly after that, it's a teaching opportunity, and the more safe shooters that are out there the better.
While it is true that while in your house and handling your guns he should have followed your rules, I'm guessing he had no idea what your rules meant (i.e. he was unfamiliar with the terms you were using.) Being a man in front of his recent female friend, he may have been hesitant, as most men are, to admit that he had no idea what you were talking about when you were saying things like double action single action dry fire magazine slide release.
When you took your guns back, I'm willing to be he had no idea why, or why you were upset.
As with many problems, I think the root of this one lies in communication, or lack thereof. I've met some folks who seemed like nice people but turned out to be real problems on a simple weekend camping trip. If B was decently behaved for 48 hours out in the woods, he might not be that bad a guy.
This might be a good opportunity to get A to sit down with B, go over the 4 rules, explain some terminology, and convert another gun owner into a safe shooter. Even if she ends up dumping him shortly after that, it's a teaching opportunity, and the more safe shooters that are out there the better.
RKBABob
Member
B either doesn't understand what dry fire means, or B has no respect for those around him. If its the latter case, then its good to set boundaries with B early. He's the kind of guy who will borrow your tools and never return them... help himself to your beer... and show up uninvited at bedtime.
Now B won't do those things to you, even if its only because he thinks you're a mean, nasty ogre.
If he's truly ignorant of what dry fire means, then he will have to be politely educated... preferably at the same time you instruct him on safe muzzle direction and trigger finger discipline.
I hope A forgives you.
Now B won't do those things to you, even if its only because he thinks you're a mean, nasty ogre.
If he's truly ignorant of what dry fire means, then he will have to be politely educated... preferably at the same time you instruct him on safe muzzle direction and trigger finger discipline.
I hope A forgives you.
eagle45
Member
I agree that B probably is not as knowledgeable about guns as he wants to appear, and especially in front of A. Could be he got defensive and got his feelings hurt when he was corrected in front of B. Mind you, I'm not saying you were wrong in your requirements for your own guns.
I've had similar things happen when friends gather at my house. The guys eventually end up downstairs at the gun safe. If there is anyone there whose knowledge and gun safety habits I'm unsure of, I try to give a quick gun safety run through, 'just as a friendly reminder' and review the basics. Most guys are pretty receptive to this, and if done in front of everyone nobody feels like they are being singled out. The two things I've noticed most often even after this is pointing the weapon at people and flipping the cylinder shut on a revolver. That really tells me that the guys are not experienced shooters. A lot of people think pointing a gun anywhere is ok after it has been checked. Experienced shooters know better. Same with flipping the cylinder shut 'hollywood style'. In fact most people guilty of that admit that they saw it in a movie somewhere.
If I notice someone seems interested, I'll try to get them back to the safe one on one, and let them handle a few more if they want to. The idea is to get them more interested if possible.
I've had similar things happen when friends gather at my house. The guys eventually end up downstairs at the gun safe. If there is anyone there whose knowledge and gun safety habits I'm unsure of, I try to give a quick gun safety run through, 'just as a friendly reminder' and review the basics. Most guys are pretty receptive to this, and if done in front of everyone nobody feels like they are being singled out. The two things I've noticed most often even after this is pointing the weapon at people and flipping the cylinder shut on a revolver. That really tells me that the guys are not experienced shooters. A lot of people think pointing a gun anywhere is ok after it has been checked. Experienced shooters know better. Same with flipping the cylinder shut 'hollywood style'. In fact most people guilty of that admit that they saw it in a movie somewhere.
If I notice someone seems interested, I'll try to get them back to the safe one on one, and let them handle a few more if they want to. The idea is to get them more interested if possible.
WinchesterAA
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2006
- Messages
- 870
I don't buy guns I can't dryfire for that very reason. I take a lot of people shooting, most of them new.
XD Fan
Member
You behaved correctly.
I'm with catfish101. It sounds like "B" is an inconsiderate ******* and if I needed to do it all over myself, I'd do it the exact same way. If "A" or "B" continue to pass blame onto you, deny it and make sure "B" gets all the blame for that particular situation because you did nothing wrong or out of line. If "B" wants to act like that he's going to get a harsh response. It's Neuton's Law that says "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." Everything has it's consequences and he got just what he had coming to him.
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