Gun Gripes: IV8888 and John Lovell on gun comfort/grip

[JeeperCreeper]

So I just watched the most recent "Gun Gripes" video with IraqVeteran8888 and John Lovell/WarriorPoetSociety. I really must say this is one of the first times I've disagreed and become slightly annoyed with either of the presenters opinions.

Normally I don't get bothered by opinions of youtube personalities and I honestly do love IV8888 and WPS videos, and they will continue to be some of my favorites. But I must say I really disagree with them on this one... not necessarily what they are saying, but the degree to which they are saying it.

Now, I don't wanna get into a whole debate about "expert's opinions" and "appeal to authority" and "youtube is trash" arguments, but I really wanna get into what they are saying.

The consensus of the video is (my translation): I'm sick of people complaining about guns not fitting their hands. If you're a normal person, a gun should fit your hand. If it doesn't, train to have the gun fit your hand. It's because you're holding it wrong. But maybe not. I dunno, just stop saying that some guns are more comfortable than others.

I truly think this is a low-key defence piece on why you should learn to like Glock.

My take:
-Most people don't train with firearms for a living, finding a comfortable gun is important for the average Joe and Jill
-All things being equal, pick the more comfortable gun
-There are plenty of good guns out there, pick the comfortable one
-No two hands are the same no matter how similar they are
-Training can overcome a lot of things, but training is easier when you start with a nice platform that is COMFORTABLE

In the end, I do agree that people do make excuses and complain (just like I'm doing), but I think they are downplaying ergonomics and preference to an extreme. It annoyed me. I had to say something.

 

[entropy]

My Take: Pick the gun you shoot well, even if it feels funny in your hand. Springfield xD's feel good in my hand, but I don't like shooting them, and I don't shoot them well. Glocks feel like holding a 2x4 at an odd angle, but I shoot them very, very well. I am not following my own advice at the moment, as i don't own any Glocks. Fortunately, I also shoot 1911's well, and they feel good in my hands, and I do own one.

 

[jr_watkins]

I like both of these 'youtube personalities', but they are just that. They may have a point about most hands fit most guns, but I won't ever buy I gun that I don't like the way it feels. I expect neither would anyone else and that is a good thing. What would be the point or reason to do so?

 

[JeeperCreeper]

My Take: Pick the gun you shoot well, even if it feels funny in your hand. Springfield xD's feel good in my hand, but I don't like shooting them, and I don't shoot them well. Glocks feel like holding a 2x4 at an odd angle, but I shoot them very, very well. I am not following my own advice at the moment, as i don't own any Glocks. Fortunately, I also shoot 1911's well, and they feel good in my hands, and I do own one.

Interesting... I've always found that I can shoot the most comfortable guns the best (generally speaking).

Having said that, I think shooting any gun "proficiently" should not matter even if it is shaped like a bowling ball...

And I guess I am ignoring that as well too, as next time I go to the range, I wanna shoot all my buddy's Glocks even though I hate holding them just to see how I do as it has been about 2 years since I've fired one. Maybe I'll be a convert.

 

[Wisco]

The consensus of the video is: I'm sick of people complaining about guns not fitting their hands. If you're a normal person, a gun should fit your hand. If it doesn't, train to have the gun fit your hand. It's because you're holding it wrong. But maybe not. I dunno, just stop saying that some guns are more comfortable than others.

Dumb.

He’s sick of it? Good for him.

A gun is just like any other tool or accessory - it needs to work for you the way you want it to work, feel the way you want it to feel, look the way you want. Especially for $500, $1000, $5000, etc.

Sorry, but no internet commando is going to tell me to shut up when I say one thing feels better than another or use that as a reason in my selection process.

“Oh, hey counter guy at the LGS, I’m going to buy a pistol, but it doesn’t matter which one as long as it meets a bunch of criteria that doesn’t include ergonomics,” said no one ever.

I’m sick of unqualified people making gun videos. Sorry, bro, a national guard mortarman and pawn shop clerk a firearms expert does not one make.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I’m sick of unqualified people making gun videos. Sorry, bro, a national guard mortarman and pawn shop clerk a firearms expert does not one make.

Well I may have exaggerated the "point of the video", and John Lovell is a highly regarded trainer and an Army Ranger. He def knows his stuff.

I just got annoyed by his rant and decided to rant myself.

 

[tarosean]

coincidence that there are a few glocks on the table?

 

[Wisco]

Well I may have exaggerated the "point of the video", and John Lovell is a highly regarded trainer and an Army Ranger. He def knows his stuff.

I just got annoyed by his rant and decided to rant myself.

I didn’t watch much of the video. I’m not a fan of the main presenter. No disrespect to an actual qualified person, like the other guy in the video, but I’m guessing if he’s legit he wouldn’t be worried anyway.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I didn’t watch much of the video. I’m not a fan of the main presenter. No disrespect to an actual qualified person, like the other guy in the video, but I’m guessing if he’s legit he wouldn’t be worried anyway.

Yeah the normal "co-host" is the gun shop guy named Chad if I remember. I think they are entertaining.

But this video they brought in John Lovell. He's pretty legit and he was talking about it through an instructor's perspective. Like I said, I didn't wholly disagree but "how" they said it really rubbed my buttons in a bad way.

Regardless, I'd love to take one of John's classes one day... or maybe that dude Tanto and Boone from 13 hours since they run a class too... anyways...

 

[JeeperCreeper]

coincidence that there are a few glocks on the table?

Yeah... I was triggered...

 

[mjsdwash]

this is for plastic gun people. Obviously never handled a fitted gun - common with a shotgun, but can certainly be done with pistols. I have a 1911 fitted by me to me, made from some walnut handrails. It feels like holding a can of beer in terms of weight and balance. It points perfectly, and does not feel like a gun. Just like your holding a fist with some weight on it. One of the long forgotten (apparently) reasons for wood grips was the ability to fit it to yourself.

 

[murf]

@ 13:30 in the video, the guy in black says, "this just doesn't fit my hand". this, and a few other not so intelligent comments, puts this video in the reject pile.

murf

 

[Old Dog]

Uncanny -- just watched the video and suffered the same reaction as the OP.

And I will continue to disagree with that premise that if it doesn't feel right you're "not holding it right." Ergonomics is a very real science; some handguns have 'em, some don't. Glocks have never fit my hands and believe me, I've been trying to shoot them since about 1988 or so ... On the other hand (get it?), full-sized 1911s (with arched mainspring housings), CZ-75 pistols, Beretta M9/M92 and most SIG P-series pistols feel to me as though they were custom-designed to fit my hands.

Yeah, almost seemed like a stealth plug for Glocks ...

 

[badkarmamib]

Big fan of Lovell's, not so much on Eric. I need to watch this video again when I am at home, so I can hear it all. I agree that Lovell can come off as a Glock fanboy. I ran into a buddy at the range last weekend. He loves Glocks. After owning a 19 and a 17, I never could get comfortable with them. His had aftermarket sights that raised the sight picture, and Talon grips. Felt awesome in the hand. I started thinking about picking one up on the way home. He told me to shoot it till empty. I REALLY didn't like it. My trigger finger kept sliding down the shoe and scraping the trigger guard. Didn't matter how I held it, it kept rubbing. I feel like, with enough practice, I could overcome it. But, I shoot my M&P just fine, without adapting.

The Beretta 92 is hailed as the perfect gun, for the guy who wears size XXXXXL gloves. I have average-sized hands, and they fit me PERFECTLY. Like it was molded for my grip. I am still trying to justify getting another one. Used to hate the way 1911's fit in my hand. Tried another one about 4 years ago, and loved it. Had a Sig SP2022 that fit my hands great when I was a mechanic. Switched to a desk job, lost the calluses, the Sig felt more like a brick than a Glock does.

Point is: People are different, people change. That is why the gun shop sells more than one gun, and why a person will sell a gun after carrying it for 5 years. While I appreciate what a Glock is, I know what it isn't: It isn't for me.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Uncanny -- just watched the video and suffered the same reaction as the OP.

And I will continue to disagree with that premise that if it doesn't feel right you're "not holding it right." Ergonomics is a very real science; some handguns have 'em, some don't. Glocks have never fit my hands and believe me, I've been trying to shoot them since about 1988 or so ... On the other hand (get it?), full-sized 1911s (with arched mainspring housings), CZ-75 pistols, Beretta M9/M92 and most SIG P-series pistols feel to me as though they were custom-designed to fit my hands.

Yeah, almost seemed like a stealth plug for Glocks ...

You may be my "hand twin" like Joey had on "Friends!"

I shoot Glocks well, but they have never felt right to me. Likewise, though my hands aren't particularly large, M92s and P-series SIGs fit me perfectly.

I find 1911s pleasant enough to shoot, but I'm not a fan of the grip safety. My Dad's Argentine Ballester Molina fits me nicely.

 

[Pudge]

I think much of the discussion comes from a training point of view. If you are gripping a firearm in a comfortable manner, and he can show you a technique which will allow faster hits on target, even if less comfortable, should you ignore it? What if, that technique coupled with a tool you find to be less comfortable, improve your performance over what you are capable of with a weapon and grip you find more comfortable? Should there be a focus of training that extends beyond doing what you're already doing?

Here at The high Road, I have read criticism of my carry firearm, my stance, my carry location, and so forth. This is the internet, should I ignore it and do what I find comfortable, or is there some wisdom in listening to others who may have more knowledge and experience, and perish the thought, might be better shots due in part to their techniques and weapons?

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I think much of the discussion comes from a training point of view. If you are gripping a firearm in a comfortable manner, and he can show you a technique which will allow faster hits on target, even if less comfortable, should you ignore it? What if, that technique coupled with a tool you find to be less comfortable, improve your performance over what you are capable of with a weapon and grip you find more comfortable? Should there be a focus of training that extends beyond doing what you're already doing?

Here at The high Road, I have read criticism of my carry firearm, my stance, my carry location, and so forth. This is the internet, should I ignore it and do what I find comfortable, or is there some wisdom in listening to others who may have more knowledge and experience, and perish the thought, might be better shots due in part to their techniques and weapons?

I full-heartedly agree with you on that....

...I just feel like the video didn't say that. That's why I was so annoyed: because I agreed, but not too the degree that they were saying it.

It was like to make a point, they went inflammatory with click -bait for views and arguments. I guess it worked on me.

Assuming that something isn't comfortable is because I'm doing it wrong was more the take away from what I heard.

 

[tarosean]

@ 13:30 in the video, the guy in black says, "this just doesn't fit my hand". this, and a few other not so intelligent comments, puts this video in the reject pile.

Indeed strange that the canik (sp?) tang was too wide for his hands. Yet it must be a grip issue when it comes to other people's opinions.

I loath my pinky hanging free, round butts (handguns people.. get your mind outta the gutter) and a few other things. No training will get me to like or want them...

 

[Pudge]

I will admit I did not watch the entire video. But that's what I took from what I saw. I think John is tired of hearing "that (weapon/technique) won't work for me", when he is pointing out a way for a trainee to improve. They may have gone overboard in bashing ergonomics and worshiping Glock, but I didn't stick around. Ergonomically I find a 4" square butt K Frame to be about ideal. But I'm not going to try to conceal that (especially with the target grips). So now we're sacrificing ergonomics for tactical performance, and I think that was their point. But as I said, I didn't watch the entire video. And I'm not getting a Glock either way.

 

[entropy]

@ 13:30 in the video, the guy in black says, "this just doesn't fit my hand". this, and a few other not so intelligent comments, puts this video in the reject pile.

murf

I'll bet whether it fits his hand or not, he can shoot the hell out of it. At the end IV888 does say "pick a platform and stick with it." I think that's the best advice in the whole video. I'd add learn to shoot the others somewhat well also. What will happen when you have tens of thousands of rounds downrange with say a 1911, then shoot a Glock, is you'll have nice tight groups just a little higher than you'd have them with the 1911. Know this, and you'll be dead on with both. Well, it works for me, at any rate. YMMV.

 

[labnoti]

Didn't watch the video and could care less about Glocks vs other autos. I've been shooting more revolvers lately, but they have changeable grips, and in some cases, very radical changes are practical and even convenient.

In brass playing (trumpet, trombone, horn etc.), newbies are prone to going on a "mouthpiece safari," trying all the different variables in mouthpiece diameter, cup shape, and rim style. At the end of the day, mouthpieces do make a difference, but newbies are much better off just learning how to play.

 

[AZAndy]

I can shoot an N-Frame S&W as long as the backstrap isn't covered by the grip. If it is covered, like with one of those cushy Pachmeyr rubber grips, I can't get my finger on the trigger properly. What would the Mega Tactical Experts have me do, stand sideways with one hand on the grip and the other on the trigger? Pshaw, I say! Fie upon them!

 

[Kendal Black]

A great many YouTube commentators are scrambling for subject matter. If there is nothing much to be said, they must say it anyway. The alternative is not posting a video, and that will never do.

Most people can learn to shoot most guns. If the above duo had simply said that, the video would have been eighteen minutes shorter.

 

[Mizar]

A human can adapt, but a tool cannot. One should learn how to use his tools and quit making a big deal about it - he just needs to adapt. I'm an (somewhat) average build - 5.9 feet, M sized gloves and guess what, maybe more than 95% of the guns that are sold do fit me, more or less. True, some guns fit me better than others, but it's not such a big deal. It's nothing to write home about... For instance - can I shoot Glocks well? Well, yes I do. But do I LIKE them? Hell no! And from that I can make the perfect excuse that "Glocks just ain't built for me..." Bollocks - they are fine guns, but I just don't like them from purely mechanical point of view, so I made up the perfect excuse.
Now, minor changes to a platform are to be expected - different grips, triggers, hammers. But they are more of a custom fit, not really needed. A competition shooter can make a big deal about it, but in the end it's just a very minor difference - he will be quicker by 0.1 seconds and that will make a huge improvement in his scores, but in defensive shooting that is just a statistical error, I believe. Now, some people have bigger, or smaller hands - this will make a difference. But they are more of a minority (without any disrespect to them).

Just one more, final (useless) example - a friend bought recently a SIG 2022. I don't like how it handles - the grip feels like a trout trying to escape from my hold, but surprisingly, I shoot that gun rather well. In the live fire exercise that "uncomfortable" gun was just printing pretty good groups on the target. Again and again. Slow and fast shooting didn't made a difference - that gun did shoot well. And that's all that matters to me. The rest is just whining from our side, nothing more...

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I just think that most of y’all are just old farts that don’t like change or being told that you’re doing something wrong.
Just spend a day or two behind a gun counter and you will find that the majority of people that come looking for a gun have no clue on how to properly hold a gun. And you will also here, that gun doesn’t fit my hand.
Did you know that S&W spent around $40,000 designing the grip of the M&P. It comes with three back straps and you will find people that don’t like it because it doesn’t fit there hand.
The take I get from this video is people say “ This gun doesn’t fit my hand “ as an excuse for not being able to shoot a certain gun. And they are telling you that most often it is the way they are holding the gun that is the problem. And that when shooting a gun, comfort should not be your priority.
Now in the video it was said that it is true that some guns don’t fit some hands. Some to big, some to small.
Don’t get me wrong, there are guns I don’t care for due to the way they feel in my hand and some I like more for the same reason.
I carried a Beretta 92 in the Corps and never really cared for it. I hated the way it felt in my hand, but I could shoot it pretty good.
I got a sweet deal a few years ago on a FNS9. The price was to good to pass up. But the gun felt like a brick in my hand. After shooting it I found that it was not that it didn’t fit my hand, it was just different from what I was used to. I had to change my grip a little and learned to shoot it very well.
Now I was never all that fond of Glocks but in 2002 my department switched from the S&W 4046 to the Glock 22. I learned how to shoot it and like it. Then I went and bought a M&P. I really liked the way it felt in my hand, but it was love at first shoot.
So if the reason you can’t shoot a gun is because it doesn’t fit your hand, it just might be the excuse you are using for not taking the time to learn to shoot the gun. But then again, it just might not fit your hand.