Gun Purchases - personal address on ID

[ttinlv]

I haven't called ATF yet on this. And I must say the last few times that I have, they have been very nice and answer some enforcement questions I had.

I was looking at purchasing a new handgun this past Saturday. I had my CCW and my driver's license so the purchase should have been relatively quick. When the gun shop started filling out the ownership transfer for the handgun, they noticed that my driver's license had my PO Box address on it. At that point the guy tore up the transfer paper and said he couldn't sell it to me without a physical address. I asked him when did this start, as just last year I had purchased a handgun from that very shop with the same store owners. He said it was ATF cracking down on them.

That's why I'll call ATF myself, what difference would a physical address over a PO Box have? Anyone can get one of the UPS store type mailboxes which have a street address and I could tell Motor Vehicles that that was my new address and mail a new license there.

I use my PO Box address for security reason, for all my bills and any legal stuff I have. While there have been US Post Office box breakins, it's a whole lot less vunerable than the mailbox sitting on street, usually an unlockable one at that.

 

[GhostlyKarliion]

well, get to calling and let us know what you find out!

 

[drphil]

I have often wondered this myself and how it applies to people who do not have a permanent residence. If a “residential” address is required then homeless people and nomads (RVers) essentially lose their 2A rights. From a security standpoint I don’t see why they would want you to give the location where the recently purchased firearm will be stored. That seems like a situation ripe to be taken advantage of (stolen records, hacked computer, disgruntled employee). Also, is the address is even provided to the NICS? I thought they just used name, DOB, height, weight, eye color, and birthplace

 

[Bubbles]

The addresses on your driver's license and second form of ID must match or the FFL can't go through with the sale. What address is on your CCW?

 

[waterhouse]

If you turn Form 4473 over there is a section titled "Instructions to Transferor/Seller".

Section 1 clearly states "The buyer must provide a valid form of government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth . . . "

That "must" is not my emphasis added, it is bold on the form.

The shop made a mistake last time when they let you purchase with a P.O. box on your license.

Anyone can get one of the UPS store type mailboxes which have a street address and I could tell Motor Vehicles that that was my new address and mail a new license there.

And if you did this, and then put that address as your residential address on the 4473, and then signed section 16 where you certify that your answers are true and correct, you have committed perjury, which is a felony. Good bye gun ownership.

 

[shdwfx]

The addresses on your driver's license and second form of ID must match or the FFL can't go through with the sale. What address is on your CCW?

While true in Virginia, requiring two forms of ID is a state-specific law and goes beyond ATF requirements.
My state only requires a single photo-ID for firearms purchases.

 

[MT GUNNY]

At one time I used my work address.

 

[yhtomit]

I think in the late 90s, far more restrictive rules were put in place (I suspect the usual bugaboos were dragged out and propped up in their usual places -- kiddie porn, drug use by minors, terrorists raising money by stamp collecting) restricting private mailbox designations.

I had long had people mail me at "Planet 413" at a private mailbox company in Austin while I was a student at UT -- Box seemed boring, and there was no ambiguity about it anyhow. No harm, no foul.

As was explained to me then (I may have been badly informed and may have misunderstood, and it may be that it's a law observed mostly in the breach -- I have not sought new information), that mail sent to such commercial mail receiving agents must not be labeled to as to imply that it is going to something *other* than a receiving agent. So, no "suite," "apartment" or even "planet." Just either #413, or "Box 413."

But Yes, *residence* address is what the form says.

timothy

 

[yhtomit]

EDIT: D'oh! I thought I was immune to this double-posting nonsense Alas.

timothy

 

[obm]

I picked up a S&W revolver and a Caspian frame yesterday with my driver's license w/a PO Box address, I put down my residense address on the yellow form. I picked them up at different FFLs and neither balked. I took it down to the local PD(we have gun registration here in Hawaii), showed my license with PO Box address, gave my residence address, got the guns registered and went home no problem. Been doing this for years and never had a problem.

 

[Zundfolge]

I still find the idea of PO boxes on a driver's licenses to be odd.

How does a PO box prove you are a resident of said state?

The addresses on your driver's license and second form of ID must match or the FFL can't go through with the sale.

Second form of ID? I've never been asked for anything other than a driver's license.

 

[AK103K]

My drivers licenses had only a PO Box as the address for years, as it was the only address we had. We never got mail delivery at our house, and our house never had a "street" address.

The state eventually changed their requirements, which required a physical address on the license, and since we didnt have an address, they went with the nearest cross roads. So our new address was the cross roads and the PO Box. Funny part was, our PO Box wasnt in the same zip code as the house address. But that doesnt matter. The second line in the address is the delivery address, regardless what the first line is.

Then the county went to 911 and assigned an address to each house. So now the address was the 911 street address, and the PO Box that was still in another zip code. In reality, the address didnt exist, but it was still the legal address, as we still had no mail delivery at the house.

We have since moved, and again, we live where there is no 911, and no real street address's. We again have a physical address that does not match the PO Boxes zip code, but it is still our legal address, and the one what goes on our drivers license and the 4473 when they are filled out.

 

[another okie]

When we changed health insurers recently they required physical home addresses for everyone. It's a treasury regulation that grew out of the Patriot Act. It's not in the act itself, but in a regulation under the act issued by the department. That wouldn't explain the ATF change on the 4473, but it suggests Big Brother is tired of not being to find his slaves.

 

[Daryl Licht]

I ran into this same situation at the Wananmacher gun show in Tulsa a couple of years ago. My DL had my PO box as my address and the FFL would not accept it. The atf is always present at that show, so I asked them about it. The agents there said that ID must have your physical address, or the dealer cannot sell you the gun.

I would not have approached the atf, had the FFL's lovely assistant accepted the second for of ID I offered, my voter registration card, which did show my address. He did say that since the voter ID was a government issued document that it was acceptable.

 

[bogie]

Guys, here's an easy thing to do... Next time you've got business at the local DMV, whatever, get yourself a State ID card - they have them available for folks who do not/can not drive, etc... Costs about $10 here in Missouri.

Put your street address on the ID card.

And put it in a drawer. If you lose your wallet, for whatever reason, it makes things a LOT easier to get new ID... (lady at the DMV suggested this when I got mugged back around 1994...)

 

[AZgotGun]

Arizona CCW, no address is on it.
AZ DMV will not issue an ID card and a License. Only one or the other.
Even my US Passport does not have any address on it.
Birth Certificates are valid identification for nearly everything. How may still live at that address? a few to really not many at all.

And I too have P.O. Box on my drivers license. AZ DMV gives you a choice as to which address you would like on your license, residence or mailing.

So this is looking like another instance where a state'ss laws and regulations conflict with federal gun laws and regulations.

 

[Thernlund]

If a “residential” address is required then homeless people and nomads (RVers) essentially lose their 2A rights.

That's right. No need to ban anything. Just regulate you out of it. Bit by bit small segments of society get edged out until one day all the small segments that were edged out actually sum up to the majority of the population.

This idea applies to alot more than guns.


-T.

 

[obm]

I still find the idea of PO boxes on a driver's licenses to be odd.

How does a PO box prove you are a resident of said state?

Don't know about other states, but Hawaii DMV does ask you for a street address and they keep it on file if you opt to put a PO Box on the license.

And when I got my PO Box at the Post Office, they also asked for a street address, in fact, I think you needed to prove you had a street address with a utility bill or something...I don't recall the DMV asking for that proof...but I could be wrong...

 

[drphil]

Thank you Thernlund, that is exactly my point. I must have missed the part in the preamble to the constitution “all of these protections and rights only pertain to those with a government sanctioned residence ... wait… actually this only applies to the second amendment”.

Not only is it difficult to maintain a current address for nomads, RV’ers, and people who live in rural areas (like AK103K) but for college students as well (many college students change their address yearly, if not more). When you change your physical address, it is almost certain that some document containing personal information will be sent there (even if you keep the same mailing address). With all of the identity theft going on, I am not a fan of social security and bank statements getting sent to my “physical address”. It takes some skill to keep track of every agency and let them know that you have moved. After several months, if you are lucky enough finally get all mail going to your “mailing address” the last thing you want to do is change your “physical address” and have to start the process all over again.

I do understand the need to determine which state you are a residence of (in order to determine what firearms you are allowed to buy). Why not just deal with the people who get caught bringing un-approved “stuff” into the state. But I concede the motive is to make firearm ownership as difficult as possible so requiring EVERYONE prove where they call home is superior to simply prosecuting people who break the law and transport un-approved items across state lines. Maybe the DMV should put breathalyzers into all cars so you have the opportunity to prove you are not drunk.

I am curious to see how the REAL ID Act plays out with firearm purchases. I assume that if a state does not comply, its residents will not have an acceptable form of ID to purchase firearms.

In the end, we must ask ourselves why they need the address and not just proof that you live in a specific state.

To those in doubt of the effort it takes to change where you get your mail: get a PO Box, then try and get all mail directed to it. Report back on how long it takes before you stop getting mail (with your name on it) in your mailbox.

 

[Gator]

From the ATF Dec '02 newsletter:

Q. Some of my customers live in extremely remote areas of the State, and their State-issued driver’s licenses or other identification cards list only a post office box and not the address of their residence. Can I sell a firearm to these customers?

A. Section 922(t)(1)(C) of the GCA requires that firearms purchasers provide a licensee with a valid “identification document” prior to the transfer of a firearm. An “identification document” is defined by law and regulation as having, among other things, a “residence address” as opposed to a mailing address. ATF acknowledges that some purchasers may need to provide a combination of government-issued documents to the licensee in order to properly establish their identity. For instance, a licensed dealer may accept a valid driver’s license that accurately reflects the purchaser’s name, date of birth, mailing address, and photograph, along with a separate government-issued document (such as a vehicle registration document or tax bill) that accurately reflects the purchaser’s residence address. If the person wishing to acquire a firearm cannot produce a government-issued document with a residence address, then the licensee cannot lawfully transfer a firearm to that person.