Gun shop employee who sold gun used at Newtown pleads guilty to paperwork charge

[evan price]

@ dogtown Tom:

Why does these myths keep getting repeated?
Common abbreviations ARE NOT a violation. ATF says so in their FFL Newsletter and uses them in several places on the 4473.

"All numbers" on the birthdate is also acceptable.........because thats the way FBI NICS asks for it.....ALL NUMBERS, NOT "December"....but "12"

Abbreviate OH for Ohio a violation? Bullhockey. Says right on the 4473 "(U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable....")

That's well and good, but when the inspector says "I want to see it this way." you don't have a lot of leeway.

I had an ffl make me.redo the.4473 because I used check marks in the boxes instead of.Xs and they said their inspector calls EACH check mark a violation because he wants Xs...despite the instructions that say "check the box.that applies".

Anytime you disagree with what the IOI says.........call his supervisor.
And "redoing" a 4473 is CLEARLY a violation if the firearm has already been transferred.

In this case, I filled out the 4473, they took it to the manager for review, and came back out and told me they needed to have me do a brand new form from scratch due to the check marks VS "x"s problem. Also they said they have to keep the incorrectly filled out 4473, it did not get trashed, the inspector requires them to be kept for inspection as well. That puzzled me- why save a mistaken form??? I had asked for the bad form to take home and shred since it has all my personal info on it.

BTW- this was Black Wing Shooting Center in Delaware, Ohio.

They stay on good terms with the inspector but still they want accounting for any extraneous marks and want all blanks filled out with NOT APPLICABLE or N/A and not left blank.

Oddly enough, a pawn shop I regularly frequent often makes scratch-outs, overwrites, etc. and just has the person initial the change. Must be a different inspector.

It's all well and good to say "Call their supervisor" but then what? They can literally close you down on the spot if they say so. You can take them to court but then they fight you with your own tax money and they have as much of it as they want, and they have no need to hurry up about the process.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Boy, they really had to go out and nail someone for something, didn't they?

The sale to Nancy Lanza was perfectly legal.

Unrelated paperwork regarding the sale to another wasn't properly completed.




If the government was really looking into preventing mass shootings, why isn't there any outcry about psychotropic drugs that are involved in almost all of these tragic events?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Gary, right, regardless of the Newtown shooting, the gun shop was not operating in accord with the license it had.

The document states the agency inspected and found violations at Riverview in 2007, 2009, and 2011.

During the one in 2011, "the licensee committed over 500 violations," ATF documents stated.

The ATF inspection in 2011 revealed that Riverview employees:

Allowed a man who said he was a felon to buy ammo and handle firearms.
Let someone buy a firearm and didn't do background check until the next day.
Sold firearms to two people without checking if they were prohibited from buying.

http://www.kpho.com/story/21937184/documents-detail-why-gun-shop-lost-license

 

[alsaqr]

So you're saying the claimed ATF conspiracy to get even with the store for selling the gun to Ms. Lanza is hogwash ...

Pretty much so. There's more to this than 500 Mickey Mouse errors in paperwork. That gunshop had 33 guns come up missing. The shop owner hired his best customer after the guy bought over 500 guns in a 17 month period. Turns out the best customer and employee was a thief.

There is this local article from a Hartford paper:

http://articles.courant.com/2007-06-15/news/0706150032_1_gun-shop-long-guns-hand-guns


This store had inventory tracking problems. The store owner was not aware that guns had disappeared until the police informed them of theft. A mentally ill man stole guns from that store.

The gun shop has had a history of issues, particularly with being unable to track its inventory.

On Saturday, a South Windsor man was arrested after he attempted to steal a long rifle from Riverview Sales.

....................................................................................................

Further investigation revealed that Marsh had an AR-15 assault rifle stashed at a Hartford hotel where he had been staying.

..................................................................................................

It was not the first time that Marsh had taken guns from Riverview Sales.

Marsh, who, according to relatives, is mentally ill, had previously received a two-year suspended sentence after it was discovered in June 2011 that he had stolen 12 firearms from Riverview Sales


Store employees were not aware that Marsh had taken 12 guns from the store in the first incident until they were alerted in June 2011.[/QUOTE] Bold=mine.




http://enfield.patch.com/groups/pol...hop-subject-of-federal-investigation-6dbc18c1

 

[Bubba613]

The document states the agency inspected and found violations at Riverview in 2007, 2009, and 2011.

During the one in 2011, "the licensee committed over 500 violations," ATF documents stated.

The ATF inspection in 2011 revealed that Riverview employees:

Allowed a man who said he was a felon to buy ammo and handle firearms.
Let someone buy a firearm and didn't do background check until the next day.
Sold firearms to two people without checking if they were prohibited from buying.

OK, if that's actually what happened then they deserved to lose their license. But note that ATF does not distinguish between violations like selling guns to people without background checks and failing to check if the gun is a rifle pistol or other on the 4473.

 

[larryh1108]

This store had inventory tracking problems. The store owner was not aware that guns had disappeared until the police informed them of theft. A mentally ill man stole guns from that store:

HuH?

Here's a c&p from the article you linked to (article was from 2007):

During that inventory, Laguercia determined that 33 guns -- 32 hand guns and a rifle -- were missing. That's when he contacted federal authorities, according to the affidavit.

So, you can now see how things get misrepresented. The owner discovered the missing guns and called authorities. You clearly stated that the owner was unaware until the police informed him of the missing guns. How you can read the same thing and come up with your twist is nothing short of amazing.

 

[alsaqr]

So, you can now see how things get misrepresented. The owner discovered the missing guns and called authorities. You clearly stated that the owner was unaware until the police informed him of the missing guns. How you can read the same thing and come up with your twist is nothing short of amazing.

What twist. Learn to read in context before going off. There were at least two incidents. Go to my second link and read this:

Store employees were not aware that Marsh had taken 12 guns from the store in the first incident until they were alerted in June 2011.

 

[dogtown tom]

evan price @ dogtown Tom:

Quote:
Why does these myths keep getting repeated?
Common abbreviations ARE NOT a violation. ATF says so in their FFL Newsletter and uses them in several places on the 4473.

"All numbers" on the birthdate is also acceptable.........because thats the way FBI NICS asks for it.....ALL NUMBERS, NOT "December"....but "12"

Abbreviate OH for Ohio a violation? Bullhockey. Says right on the 4473 "(U.S. Postal abbreviations are acceptable....")

That's well and good, but when the inspector says "I want to see it this way." you don't have a lot of leeway.

Bull.
An IOI doesn't get to invent regulations because they make him happier or make his job easier. Asking the licensee to do anything beyond what is required under Federal law or ATF regulation? Sure, he can ask, but has no authority to require you to do so.

Quote:
I had an ffl make me.redo the.4473 because I used check marks in the boxes instead of.Xs and they said their inspector calls EACH check mark a violation because he wants Xs...despite the instructions that say "check the box.that applies".

Anytime you disagree with what the IOI says.........call his supervisor.
And "redoing" a 4473 is CLEARLY a violation if the firearm has already been transferred.

In this case, I filled out the 4473, they took it to the manager for review, and came back out and told me they needed to have me do a brand new form from scratch due to the check marks VS "x"s problem. Also they said they have to keep the incorrectly filled out 4473, it did not get trashed, the inspector requires them to be kept for inspection as well. That puzzled me- why save a mistaken form??? I had asked for the bad form to take home and shred since it has all my personal info on it.

BTW- this was Black Wing Shooting Center in Delaware, Ohio.

They stay on good terms with the inspector but still they want accounting for any extraneous marks and want all blanks filled out with NOT APPLICABLE or N/A and not left blank.

So you are hearing all the "ATF wants it this way...." from a gun store?
Good grief.

Oddly enough, a pawn shop I regularly frequent often makes scratch-outs, overwrites, etc. and just has the person initial the change. Must be a different inspector.

Probably not. just a licensee who knows the regulations.

It's all well and good to say "Call their supervisor" but then what?

If the IOI as requiring the licensee to do something not required by law or ATF regulation they are out of line. Their supervisor will set them straight. Ive not had to do that on any of my IOI's, but I have called the supervisors of two IOIs in different states who were giving incorrect advice to the dealer shipping to me. (and they fixed the problem that day)

They can literally close you down on the spot if they say so.

Bull.
License revocation doesn't happen on the spot, over night or even withn a week............it is a lengthy process.

You can take them to court but then they fight you with your own tax money and they have as much of it as they want, and they have no need to hurry up about the process.

Having an ATF supervisor correct the actions of an ignorant IOI isn't going to be a court case. I think you believe every compliance inspection is a battle between licensee and IOI......it isn't.

 

[Bubbles]

License revocation doesn't happen on the spot, over night or even withn a week............it is a lengthy process.

While the revocation process isn't quick, the ATF does have and use other methods to pull a license.

Case in point: a local FFL/SOT's books were so bad the ATF basically told him to relinquish his license on the spot or face prosectution when his compliance inspection was done. Protip: "misplacing" post-samples is never a good thing. The only reason I know is that we handled disposal of his Title II firearms; he was in a neighboring county and the NFA branch approved the F3's for what they could find from him to us in a matter of hours.

As for the shop in the OP, I did ask what the errors were as there is a big difference between a clerical error versus inventory management issues, whether it's because a crooked employee is seling guns out the back door or your books are just that bad.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Bubbles said...

OK, if that's actually what happened then they deserved to lose their license.

Boom, there it is.

All of the rest of the argument for saying bad things about the ATF is well and good, but not meaningful to the case at hand, huh?

But note that ATF does not distinguish between violations like selling guns to people without background checks and failing to check if the gun is a rifle pistol or other on the 4473.

Riverview was an ongoing screwed up store that was repeatedly warned, repeatedly instructed, and repeatedly failed to correct their overt disregard for their problems.

 

[Bubbles]

Pssssst... "Bubbles" did not say that. "Bubba613" did. And Bubbles isn't a Bubba.

 

[alsaqr]

i'm not a fan of the BATFE. Had my own run-in with a rogue BATFE supervisor as the NCOIC of an Army EOD unit. The guy wanted me to commit a felony by lying to a federal judge in order protect his agents rears. Nooo way.

Off and on for the past 30+ years i've complied with the explosive storage, accountability, and licensing requirements of the BATFE. Never had a problem.

i've read the 12 page BATFE document through three times. The BATFE charged the gunshop owner with numerous serious violations. Over 300 of those violations were for failure to "completely, accurately and timely" record transactions in the A & D book. A failure to properly record transactions in the bound book is a big deal.

If anyone is interested in the facts of this case go to post 76. Click on the link. At the bottom of the article click on the link for the 12 page BATFE report.

And Mr. Dibella, the subject of the OP. Mr. Dibella allowed a known felon to handle guns.

 

[Bubba613]

Bull.
An IOI doesn't get to invent regulations because they make him happier or make his job easier. Asking the licensee to do anything beyond what is required under Federal law or ATF regulation? Sure, he can ask, but has no authority to require you to do so.

Horse-hockey. Inspectors make up rules all the time.

 

[Jackal]

Was Nancy Lanza ever charged with anything?

Unlikely, since she was murdered by her own son.

 

[dogtown tom]

Bubba613

Quote:
Bull.
An IOI doesn't get to invent regulations because they make him happier or make his job easier. Asking the licensee to do anything beyond what is required under Federal law or ATF regulation? Sure, he can ask, but has no authority to require you to do so.

Horse-hockey. Inspectors make up rules all the time.

No kidding?
Did you comprehend anything in my post? Thats the freaking point! If they make up rules report them.

Good grief.

 

[Bubba613]

They "interpret" rules all the time, effectively making them up. I just had a case of this.

 

[JohnBT]

This thread needs to be put out of its misery. It's deteriorated to petty carping about things that have nothing to do with the Newtown gun store and its years of problems preceeding the multiple murders.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I agree. It's gone on long enough.