Gun show incident - Opinions?

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

The "gangstas" mentioned in another gunshow thread reminded me of an incident some might find interesting. Some time ago - never mind how long - at a nearby gun show, I was looking at handguns on a local dealer's tables when two thugs came up. They were laughably stereotypical, the clothes, the dental work, the tats, etc.

They were looking at a 9mm "machine pistol" looking gun - a perfectly legal semi-auto. They asked several questions that made the dealer twitch, including "how hard are these to convert to a machine gun?"

The dealer was obviously ill-at-ease, and hedged on answering any of their questions in a very direct manner. The two thugs openly discussed which had a better chance of passing the background check - after the dealer refused to sell to them "under the table" at least twice. They decided, and thug 2 filled out the paperwork.

While he was filling out the form, thug 1 was asking about carry-conceal laws. "Where is it legal to pack this thing in my ride?"

The dealer told him it was perfectly legal loaded and under the driver's seat, not in the trunk or the glovebox though - all wrong information. I must have given the dealer a surprised look, because he shot me a clear "please don't correct me" look.

I minded my own business.

Thug 2 passed the NICS check, paid in cash - all small notes, and the two left with their prize. They weren't even out of the hall yet when I saw the dealer, away from his table, talking to a local police officer.

I'm not sure how things went after that, but I'm guessing badly.

I've thought about that incident on several occasions since, and I'm still rather mixed about it. On the one hand, two thugs probably had a real bad afternoon after they left the show, and I'm not going to cry over that. On the other hand, I watched a dealer set up at least one thug (who passed the NICS check) for a run-in with the police.

It was ugly all the way around.

My question for you - who was/were the bad guy/s?

KR

 

[wvshooter]

I'm not a moderator but my opinion is this isn't an incident that should be discussed at THR.

We need to support gun shows. Lord knows there are plenty of anti's out there that would love to see them slide into the history books.

 

[TimboKhan]

Dumb questions and preconceived notions about what bad guys look like don't necessarily mean bad guys, although obviously the percentages are higher. Hey, the guy passed the NICS check, right?

I am a big guy, and I have a few tattoos, and for a long time I had a pierced ear along with my long goatee. I don't think I look particularly thuggish or criminal and at worst look maybe like a biker. Plus, I literally grew up with guns and going to gun shows, and I still had a dealer tell me one time that he wouldn't do business with a person of my sort. Really? What is my sort? By "my sort" I wondered if he was talking about my being a former Marine, licensed teacher, intelligent well-read guy, or disabled veteran. I couldn't figure it out and gun shows aren't necessarily the venue I would choose to take a trip through the winter of my soul, so I spent my wad of cash at the next table.

I tell that story to make this point: If the dealer was uncomfortable, he could have refused to do business with them. I was a little insulted when it happened to me, but if the guy doesn't want to take my money that is his prerogative. Selling the guy a pistol and then telling the cops about it seems like a dumb way to go about things. If your going to take his money, take it. If you don't want to sell to a guy, don't. You can be tactful or a jerk or anywhere in between, but at the end of the day if you aren't comfortable selling to someone then you shouldn't.

 

[The Instrumental]

WV, don't we have a responsibility to address issues like this? By sweeping issues like this, encounters that obviously have to do with firearms and are somewhat cloaked in a legal gray-zone, we become less a forum for open discussion and more of a propaganda machine that ignores facts and operates solely based on our outlook on life, replacing facts with rhetoric and denying ourselves chances to learn and grow. We become no better than the Brady Group or other organizations that we lament every day for their closed-mindedness.

Personally, I cringe at the idea of one's perception of a person setting up an encounter with the police. Just because you don't like the look or mannerisms of a person doesn't make them a criminal. In this case, though, it was pretty clear that the two people here had criminal intent based on their attempts to subvert the legal system. At that point, I think the dealer's responsibilities go beyond notifying the police. If the dealer is going through the trouble of lying about concealment laws and trying to get them arrested after the fact, why not just deny them the firearm in the first place? That's a completely legal move, no?

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I don't see a reason to close this thread as long as the discussion remains civil.

 

[ms6852]

Pre-conceived notions and stereo typing can and will always lead on you being wrong and the individual being hurt in ways one does not see. I was always wrongly accused of being a pothead and untrustworthy and a criminal because I had very long hair. I was than accursed of being a pot head because I used to part my hair in the middle. It hurts because you may not be hired, or in my case promoted. Any way I served my country 21 years in the Army through several conflicts and was honorably discharged. No criminal records will be found against me other than speeding tickets.
The point I am trying to make is you cannot make judgement calls based on looks. If that is the case than nobody in Washington is a crook.

 

[rm86]

It's funny how if a celebrity was to make a comment like this they'd be called racist an out of the job for a year while studios boycotted them. For all you know these were two guys obssessed with Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2. I don't see how a gun dealer would sell a gun to would be criminals then immediately afterwards go and tell a cop he just sold a gun to some suspicious thugs. It doesn't make any sense to me...

 

[Elmer]

The dealer was obviously ill-at-ease, and hedged on answering any of their questions in a very direct manner. The two thugs openly discussed which had a better chance of passing the background check - after the dealer refused to sell to them "under the table" at least twice. They decided, and thug 2 filled out the paperwork.

I would think that was sufficient reason to turn down the sale....... conspiracy to commit a felony and a possible strawman sale.

 

[vaupet]

I would think that people with real criminal intentions would'nt show them so openly, these people probably or some weird kind of mall-ninja, pretending to be though guys. At our club, firearm-enthusiast discus the subject of transforming into full-auto, without enyone ever doing it.

If they pass the background-check, I don't see wy they should not be aible to buy the firearms.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

If you're not comfortable with the questions they're asking simply don't sell.

 

[Mp7]

it´s openly played racism.

i might find the music u listen too, the belief you hold
and your appearance stereotypically boring .....

But that is no reason to treat u differently.


Setting someone up like that is not high-roadish.
The dealer should have stopped talkn to them
if he had bad feelings. But setting them up
and then snitching .....

Things like that give gunowners and your country
a bad name.

 

[Demitrios]

Here's where it gets into a very grey are. Are they acting like their stereotypical look or are they simply new to the firearm scene? It's so difficult to answer that question without actually being there.

#1 - They were "bad guys" looking to make an illegal purchase, in which case the seller should have simply said no or asked more questions till he or she felt comfortable/uncomfortable selling the firearm and acted upon that feeling, even if the consequences meant having words with the "thug types".

#2 - They were new to purchasing hand guns and simply lacked the education when it came to buying or trading at a gun show and needed to be informed of. . . whatever the dealer felt necessary to inform them of, be it legal or just practical advice in what they were purchasing and why.

#3 - They were just complete morons and had no business purchasing a firearm until they had more experience, in which case the seller really can't make a very easy judgement call. "Are they idiots and I just don't plain sell to them?" or "Should I sell to them because a firearms purchase may help give them the experience they need?".

Simply put at least the dealer had the intelligence to remember those magical three letters, C.Y.A. and informed a police officer. Honestly if they purchaser had passed the NICS check I believe there's little room for worry in a legal sense. However the moral dillemna should have been looked at more closely by the purchaser. If they passed the legal aspect he shouldn't have felt the need to inform a police officer, if he was that uncomfortable he shouldn't have sold the firearm at all.

 

[Officers'Wife]

"how hard are these to convert to a machine gun?"

sell to them "under the table" at least twice.

The two thugs openly discussed which had a better chance of passing the background check

And there was a question something was hinky?

I wasn't there and cannot say for sure, but if I read this incident in a novel I would assume one of three things.

A,) two after-teens in a rite of passage.
B.) An undercover cop gathering evidence on either the other party or the seller.
C.) a reporter writing a story on the easy availability of fully automatic weapons via the gunshow loophole.

I would not suspect actual criminal activity for several reasons, the main being it's too easy and far less public to obtain weapons from 'other' sources.

 

[Sgt_R]

I wouldn't have sold to them. I then would have informed the local LEO that, based on their words and actions, I believed the 2 men may have intended to commit a crime (purchasing "under the table," etc.).

However, I wouldn't set someone up like that. It's bad for the customers (maybe they were good guys who watched too much tv, and will now have a record for improperly transporting a firearm), and potentially bad for the LEO as well (if they really are bad guys, you've just armed them and then set them up for a showdown with the police).

R

 

[hso]

Everyone, dealer and customer(s), participating in a suspected straw purchase were in the wrong.

Judging a book by it's cover is wrong, but behavior is the key to determining if you should go ahead with a sale of a firearm. Skinhead, 'banger, biker, well dressed WASP with a gold card, if they give you an indication that they are not on the up and up you should stop the sale. If they just fit your idea of what a miscreant looks like, but have all the proper paperwork AND they don't give you any reason to doubt them proceed and leave your prejudices or inexperience behind.

 

[RyanM]

A lot of the above story could easily be the seller's or the re-teller's prejudices talking, more than what actually happened.

"How easily is this converted into a machine gun?" That's something you hear a lot from stupid or ignorant people of every color, creed, caste, etc. Especially when looking at "assault style" guns. I've heard lots of "sportsman" hunter types talking about how AR-15s and whatever should be illegal, because they're so "easy" to convert to full auto. Sounds like the dealer said "it's really hard, and it's also illegal" or something similar. They were still interested in the gun anyway.

Asking to "sell under the table." Well, that depends entirely on your and the dealer's knowledge of the law. I've probably set off some people's "under the table" alarms by asking if they'd ship a long gun straight to me, because they were in state. It's completely legal, but Gunbroker's FAQ or something says "it's illegal to ever ship a gun to anyone but an FFL, ever," and most people go by that instead. In most other states, it'd be legal to ship a handgun direct to someone in your state, too.

And in any case, pistols can be sold between individuals paperwork-free in KY legally. So the two people easily could have been ignorant of the law that says only individuals can do that, but not FFLs. Considering the incredible amount of misinformation out there about gunshows, any newbie could have made the wrong assumption there.

Finally, the two were discussing who should buy it, which may have seemed like a straw purchase. On the other hand, if the dealer made it clear that purchasing on behalf of someone else is illegal, then it really wouldn't be hard for one person to buy the gun, keep it at his residence, and go shooting with his buddy on a regular basis. Lots of people are close enough with their friends to have a notion of "communal property," even though the law says it belongs to only one person.

And there are a lot of things that can bar you from firearms ownership. Drug possession as a kid, drug possession committed by your kid in some cases. I've even heard of unpaid tickets flagging a guy's file as "fugitive from justice." It's not just felons and wifebeaters. And hey, maybe neither guy knew the exact crimes that would make the check come back "denied" (was it explained?), and guy #1 had a couple speeding tickets.

And culture clashes count for a lot. Really, the closest analogue I can think of for the non-gangster "gangstas," is Cowboy Action Shooting. I think everyone outside that sport can agree the participants are a little strange. They dress funny, talk funny, are obsessed with guns, and even go by fake names. And they glorify a fictionalized, romanticized vision of a rather unpleasantly violent time in America's past. Sound familiar? "Cowboy" is just further in the past, and easier to romanticize. You and I are no more really familiar with the "cowboy" life, than upper-middle class suburbanite "gangstas" are to real gangster culture.

 

[627PCFan]

"looking at a 9mm "machine pistol" looking gun - a perfectly legal semi-auto. "how hard are these to convert to a machine gun?""

That would have put me at rest, I doubt they knew enough about guns to disassemble it to mod it to FA. Regardless, if I was selling its my right to reserve judgement for sale, and I wouldn't have sold. If something seems off, it usually is.

 

[CHEVELLE427]

some just want to look the bad guy part, we don't know because we do not know anything about the to in question, 1 did pass he check so all should be fine and no reason to try to get them in trouble with the law,

the country has turned into just a tattle tail society. it has got to were neighbor against neighbor now days.

if the kid asked how to carry the gun and the dealer told him bad info on the purpose of getting him in trouble,
if it went to court the dealer would have to come back into town to tell his version and be asked why he sold the gun if he was in doubt to start with

LONG STORY SHORT

i had a kid once that wanted and did buy an sks
FTF SELL NON DEALER,
he looked the gang part and was also white, i had no problem selling him the gun UNTIL he started talking.

said he wanted a hand gun but could not have one because he was on probation.

i still had the gun in my hands and his money, we both had a receipt he requested to have written up . i handed him his money back.




he got up set . started spouting off how he has a receipt for a gun and wanted it, .i explained i could not sell it to him as he said he was on probation,
then he wanted me to sell it to his buddy in the car,
AGAIN I TOLD HIM I COULD NOT DO THAT EITHER AS IT WOULD BE A STRAW PURCHASE.

again he demanded his gun and
SAYS DO WE NEED TO GET THE LAW INVOLVED.

i said i guess we do so i called 911

HE QUICKLY LEFT BUT STILL CALLING ME ON THE PHONE.

law came ran a check then tracked him down and arrested him on a felon buying a weapon.

HE GOT 8 MONTHS

THIS ALL STARTED AROUND 6PM.
by time the law got done it was 1:30am

CSI BOYS CAME AND TOOK THE SKS TO PRINT IT
gun had to stay with them till court.

funny thing was the kid said he never bought the gun but i think the receipt is what got him he filled out and signed, and the security video tape showing him at my place.

funny thing was CSI GUY said he could not get any prints from the gun, but when i picked it up there was no print dust any were on the gun, had a dirt bike stole years ago, it was found 10 min after it was taken, when i got it back it has black dust all over it, that stuff is hard to get off when it gets in scratches and cracks,
I DON'T THINK THEY DUSTED THE SKS
his prints were all over the gun from end to end



ALWAYS WONDERED HOW MANY WOULD HAVE STILL SOLD HIM THE GUN JUST TO GET THE $350

I KNOW 1 THAT WOULDNT--------ME

 

[1911fan]

Let's see...dealer makes full profit on a gun he sold to "iffy" individuals. Thereupon, he gives them improper advice on where to carry the gun in the car, thus setting them up for improper carry and likely confiscation. At this point, he runs to the nearest cop and narcs them off.

Oh, well, at least he made his profit and helped to get one of those evil guns off the street.

What's not to like???

ed

P.S.

Can you say "hypocritical"?

ed

 

[03Shadowbob]

This must have been a while ago unless the state this happened in didn't have a waiting period on buying a handgun which I though most, if not all, do when you buy from a dealer. Wondering how he walked out with it if he didn't have a CCW permit.
As far as the dealer, he should have picked up on the fact they may have been up to no good and not sold to them.
Personally I think it's a jerk move to sell to the guy then rat him out. If he was good enough to sell the gun to then that should be the end of it.

 

[JoeMal]

Some people need to mind their own business.

As mentioned, if you aren't comfortable selling, then don't. But if you do, treat them like you would every other customer.

 

[Deanimator]

Any time I see somebody THAT obvious, I immediately have three thoughts:

1. BATFE
2. Bloomberg
3. Daley

That's what the Soviets used to refer to as a "provocation".

Criminals are usually stupid, but not usually THAT stupid.

 

[Sam1911]

This must have been a while ago unless the state this happened in didn't have a waiting period on buying a handgun which I though most, if not all, do when you buy from a dealer.

I don't know the number for sure, but one site I queried indicated that only eleven states still have a waiting period for buying a handgun.

 

[jbrown50]

Thug 2 passed the NICS check, paid in cash - all small notes, and the two left with their prize. They weren't even out of the hall yet when I saw the dealer, away from his table, talking to a local police officer.

If I was the police officer my question to the dealer would have been: "Since you went through with the sale anyway, what was it that would have prevented you from selling to these guys?"

 

[22-rimfire]

In KY, you pay the money, complete the paperwork and pass the NICS check. You leave with the firearm. There is no waiting period (as it should be) and it makes no difference if they have a CCW permit.

If I was the dealer, I would have simply refused to sell them a firearm regardless of whether or not they might pass the NICs check. They asked questions indicating their possible criminal intent. Dealers are free to sell to whomever they want to. I might very well have flagged them with an officer to keep an eye on them as well.