Gun show incident - Opinions?

[Deanimator]

This must have been a while ago unless the state this happened in didn't have a waiting period on buying a handgun which I though most, if not all, do when you buy from a dealer. Wondering how he walked out with it if he didn't have a CCW permit.

I've lived in Ohio since 1986. Ohio has no "waiting period" for ANYTHING, longer than it takes for the NICS check to come back and your credit card to be charged.

Don't draw unwarranted conclusions from YOUR state or reruns of "Law & Order".

 

[heeler]

I have had several different individuals approach me at gun shows while I was walking the aisles in hopes of selling a certain firearm that either could not speak or barely speak the English language wanting to buy said firearm and I always decline the sale.
Always.
Are they an illegal alien or a new comer that just has not mastered our language?
I have no idea but I will not sell to that person on that fact alone.

 

[uspJ]

I think the dealer was in the wrong for several reasons.

-Selling to someone you may believe was going to commit a criminal act.

-Giving them improper advice on how to carry the gun.

-Informing LEO about the guy's when they have not done anything illegal and passed a background check.


I would liked to have heard the conversation between the seller and the officer.

Seller: I just sold a gun to two thugs.

Officer: Well,...this is a gun show.

 

[22-rimfire]

Seller: I just sold a gun to two thugs.

Officer: Well,...this is a gun show.

Being a gunshow makes no difference what so ever. The law is the law. Statements like that give gunshows a bad rap hinting that they will intentionally sell guns to persons who are not allowed to own a firearm.

 

[strambo]

Why is this all of a sudden about race (which was never mentioned) and discrimination? They repeatedly talked about the possibility of committing multiple felonies. Then discussed which one they thought might pass the NICS (they didn't know?).

Their dress and dental work was just more info reinforcing their felonious talk. I wouldn't have sold and would have notified the police.

If they had not been talking about committing felonies, might they have been treated differently? We'll never know, but why is the dealer the racist? He just shouldn't have sold the gun.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

The dealer should have refused the sale...and left it at that.

 

[22-rimfire]

HSO had some good comments. I think the dealer may have played along at first to make the sale and then got nervous overhearing their comments/discussion, and so forth. Descriminating because of somebody's appearance is not a good thing although it is done all the time. Try going into a job interview in shorts, tea shirt, unwashed, and generally unkept appearance at a company who requires their employees to wear coat and tie and see how far you get as far as getting the job.

 

[Vonderek]

I don't see how the dealer was discriminating based upon appearance. First off let's all cut the political correctness out and admit that we all make conscious and subconsious judgments about people and situations. It's called situational awareness and if you don't practice it it's really pointless to even carry a gun. If you go throughout life not making judgments about what's going on around you you probably will become a victim sometime in your life. If you choose to dress and act like a thug I will consider you to be one.

So #1 the customers appeared to be gang members.

#2, the customers asked the dealer about making an illegal sale. At that point the dealer should have decided not to do business with them. It was obvious that their intent was to break the law.

IMO the dealer was wrong to make the sale and also wrong to tip off the police if that's what he actually did. The OP was not privy to that conversation. The dealer may have known the cop and said something to him completely unrelated.

 

[03Shadowbob]

I learn somethign new every day. That's good to know about theStates that do not require waiting period and I appluad them for that.

 

[TNT in Round Rock]

it´s openly played racism.

since the OP didn't state a race specifically, how is it racism ????

 

[tinygnat219]

The customer passed the Background check, asked some perfectly strange questions (we do get them from time to time), and paid in cash. That's all I would care about. However, after trying to do a private sale, I'd refuse to sell to 'em.

I think it's despicable what this dealer did: Knowingly providing wrong information, setting them up for a fall, all while taking their money. Yeah, this is good for the gun owning movement.

 

[gun guy]

upset ove gang violence, the mayor of LA told the chief of police to come down hard on gansta bangas, so the word went out, anyone that looks the part, shake em down, put em up against the wall. soon if you looked like you just fell off the cover of a rap album, you could expect to be hassled, searched, photoed, etc. After the FBI arrested about 20 police officers, and charged them with various civil right violations, the practice stopped.
It's called the constitution just because you dont like the way somebody looks, you don't get to decide if they deserve their civil rights. If they passed the background check, they have as much right to buy a mac-9 as the good ol bunny hunter does the 22. When you set yourself up as the moral police, it's the first step towards fascism, and alot of good americans died to prevent that way of life from reaching these shores. when we, as gun owners, begin to pick on other gun owners, because their guns, way of life, religion, etc differs from ours, we are no better than those we fought to defeat. As long as they obey the law, (thats the key point) they have the freedom, to carry what they want, drive what they want, speak intelligently for or against issues, groups, etc. If it bothers you, just consider, how many of your rights, do you want to give up, to take away theirs?

 

[JohnBT]

"If they passed the background check, they have as much right to buy a mac-9"

Not if the money belonged to someone else. That's called a straw purchase.

____________

I do judge books by the cover. Or maybe the cover art. There is a lot of good information available to those with a sharp eye.
____________

My advice to my clients is to go ahead and dress the way you want, but understand that the world will be making judgements about you and whether or not they want to hire you and have you around. That's reality.

John

 

[SSN Vet]

The two thugs openly discussed which had a better chance of passing the background check

sounds like a good reason to suspect a straw purchase and deny the sale...

"how hard are these to convert to a machine gun?"

sounds like plenty of reason to suspect a crime, since converting it to FA would indeed be a crime.

Hypocrassy?

Perhaps the dealer feared being accused of racism, as the OP already has been.

 

[stchman]

Why would the gun dealer SELL THEM THE GUN and then go snitch to the police????!!!!! Sounds like the dealer was more concerned with money.

If I was the dealer I would have refused to sell them a firearm after they asked questions of this nature (converting to full auto) and bypassing the law to "sell under the table".

If I was a gun dealer and a customer came up to me, asked to see the gun, said he/she will take it, filled out the 4473, passed the NICS check, then I have no problem. Regardless of looks you cannot automatically assume someone is a criminal by their clothing.

Criminals don't come to gun shows, talk BS about full auto and bypassing laws, to buy a gun.

 

[Nushif]

I've told my wife in front of a gun dealer several times:
"I can't do the check, because my license isn't updated yet. You buy it for me."
Is that a straw purpose?

We both are heavily tattooed and do wear our ink proudly. Along with that... I sometimes go bald.
Am I bad company?

I understand the caution in selling firearms, but at some point the PURPOSEFULL act of setting someone up for jailtime (via bad info) should also carry consequences.
As for the charges of racism, they're bogus. I think it's more an issue of "culturalism" which also makes the shooting community so indigestible to Antis and just reinforces that somehow all gun owners are middle aged at least, well dressed, say Sir and Ma'am are upstanding members of society, conservative value a nuclear family and watch FOX.

Let's face reality here. We're a varied lot and these people in this case may very well be crooks. But not selling to someone because you "don't like their face" may very well be your right. That doesn't make you any less of a *#+@ though.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Quote:
Originally Posted by MP7
it´s openly played racism.

since the OP didn't state a race specifically, how is it racism ????

That's what I was wondering too. Most "thug" looking guys I see are white. Maybe the seller hates white people.

 

[ArmedBear]

I've told my wife in front of a gun dealer several times:
"I can't do the check, because my license isn't updated yet. You buy it for me."
Is that a straw purpose?

Possibly. Does the dealer know you're married to the woman you're standing with?

We both are heavily tattooed and do wear our ink proudly. Along with that... I sometimes go bald.
Am I bad company?

No. But you have the IQ of a houseplant if you don't think that you will be perceived differently, by some people, than someone who isn't heavily tattooed. That's what "wearing proudly" means: you are willing to proudly accept the social and economic consequences, good or bad, of not hiding your ink. If you display your tattoos and then whine about the fact that people don't react positively, that's not pride. If you display them to people who you know will like them, that would be hardly worth mentioning, and it's not pride, either.

at some point the PURPOSEFULL act of setting someone up for jailtime (via bad info) should also carry consequences

At some point, maybe. But not necessarily here. I assume you meant "intentional".

well dressed, say Sir and Ma'am are upstanding members of society

Well, if you think that the shooting community would be more palatable to antis if it were known for being dressed in gang clothes (and anyone who lives in our society knows damn well what those are), being especially rude to people, and being scumbags, you really need to think again...

 

[armoredman]

it´s openly played racism

Please point to the place where the race of EITHER the purchasers OR the dealer is spelled out. If not, please keep such comments to yourself, as that is an insult to anyone reading. If you believe everything is racist, then perhaps the racist is you.

I have denied sales while working an FFL, for straw man sales among other reasons, some poorly done, some slick. This was a CLEAR no sale, and please leave. The dealer is at fault. Since there is no way to know what happened later, I am willing to bet the dealer faced some legal trouble of his own for this act.
If it makes you uncomfortable, don't make the sale.

 

[gym]

If he was legally able to purchase the gun and had the money and wasn't on probation, then he could buy it, otherwise no.

 

[Deus Machina]

it´s openly played racism

Since no race was ever mentioned, it's not.

Racism should not be the first thing people jump to the second something inconveniences someone. This works the same as the Brady bunch's claims of gun owners snapping--it's what, around here, we call 'projection'.

Aside from that, everyone involved was in the wrong.

The buyers for asking about converting it, discussing who best would pass the NICS, and general stupidity.
The seller for selling it after them asking, discussing, and then setting them up.

If I took my AK to the show, and someone asked "How easy would that be to convert to FA", they will get a polite but very firm "no idea, it's very much illegal, and I'll have no part in it." From that point, I will answer their questions about that if they just didn't know or, if they persist, tell them to have a good day, walk away, and alert security. I'll either postpone a crime waiting to happen, or get an ATF 'informant' (ahem) or Bloomberg thug kicked out, and either is just dandy by me.

If I was a dealer, after the way these guys acted, I would simply tell them "I don't feel comfortable selling to you. I'm suspicious you will illegally manufacture a machine gun/commit a straw sale/intend to carry illegally/etc. You can find the pamphlet on local laws over at that booth. Have a nice day." and ask security to keep an eye on them.

Even if they passed the NICS, talking over which one would be most likely to means they either didn't expect to pass it up, or it's a straight-up straw sale. No thank you, sir.

 

[Bubbles]

When we had the initial interview for our FFL the ATF inspector made it very clear that we could refuse to make a sale to anyone for any reason, and they would back us up.

We have had two instances where we had to eject people from the premises for asking us to sell guns under the table, build sterile guns, etc. Afterwards the sheriff's department was called and surveillance tape handed over.

 

[Cosmoline]

I would think that was sufficient reason to turn down the sale....... conspiracy to commit a felony and a possible strawman sale.

My thought as well. If they're openly talking about which one should roll the dice on the NICS, there's no way the transaction should be made.

 

[philpost]

Either refuse the sale, based on a legitimate reason (like asking for an under the table sale), or don't. But to purposely mis-inform someone, then set them up with cops is a no-class move. And finally, based on my own observations + the running commentary of the manager of my local range on Facebook, you can't spit in the world of firearms without hitting an idiot. Guitar & tattoo shops are the same way. But hopefully you CAN try to educate and inform people. Especially ones you're taking money from.

 

[Kentucky_Rifleman]

since the OP didn't state a race specifically, how is it racism ????

I didn't mention ethnicity in the original post - and I won't get into specifics now, but the two were of differing ethnicities, one of which appeared to be the same as the seller, so I can say that the dealer's actions seem more classism than racism.

Maybe I'm as guilty as the dealer since I didn't speak up. Maybe it's classism on my part too, but I'd like to think my silence had more to do with my habit of minding my own business.

As for the tats, they weren't your run-of-the-mill ink; they were serious looking gang stuff. I've looked at gang ink in some detail (research for a project I was working on). It looked like the real deal to me.

Having read what everyone posted, I think I agree with those who said that the behavior exhibited was enough to keep me from selling to them, had I been the dealer. I'd have probably refused to sell to two good ol' boys behaving the same way.

KR