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Gun stops terrorist today.

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you know what, nothing happened today. Sit in your chair and wine about the non-important details. That's right take aim, now shoot yourself in the foot.:banghead:

By the way, pretty sneaky, mewachee! I notice has you almost seamlessly went from calling the solider a civilian to calling him a citizen.

Let's just call it a military exercise that ended in a construction workers death.

I didn't switch anything, I went with what I saw on the news first thing this morning. To me it was proof of what is spouted here all day long. Then anti-social shut-ins rip on the post rather than commenting on the intended point.
 
A terrorist, huh? He must've gotten the bulldozer from the Israelis, while they were taking a break from bulldozing Palestinian homes and 200-year old olive groves in "unapproved" areas, so they could move in nice Jewish families. Darn those terrorists. Always using violence against innocents in order to implement their policies.

And there it is, the typical cheap shot from the Ron Paul lunatic fringe that goes unnoticed by the moderators but God forbid gets rebutted with facts because that would be political.

There's a reason why the Libertarian Party will never garner more than token support and it ain't because the rest of us are crazy. :neener:
 
And thread lock in 3... 2...
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Wrong
 
Whoever got there first fixed the problem. With no problems.

Here in the U.S., there would have been enough time for major media to arrive, because all that would happen would be a lot of people calling 911... or maybe not - maybe they'd all be busy taking cell phone video to sell to CNN... And nobody would call...

Sigh...
 
A terrorist, huh? He must've gotten the bulldozer from the Israelis, while they were taking a break from bulldozing Palestinian homes and 200-year old olive groves in "unapproved" areas, so they could move in nice Jewish families. Darn those terrorists. Always using violence against innocents in order to implement their policies.

So you equate bulldozing an empty house or a tree with a rampage like this? The Israelis are suffering dozens of missles a night for the last 5 years yet you don't see them murdering Arabs as retaliation. The Israelis are only doing what our troops are doing in Iraq except the Israelis live in the neighborhood and are looking for a permanent solution whereas we can just leave the area if we so wish. By your way of thinking, if you get into a fender bender with someone, they should have the right to come back later and do massive permanent personal damage to you and your children. Grow up Sans, and read your own signature, it applies to everyone including Israelis. I'm not a huge supporter of Israelis or their policies but your post was just asinine.

And there it is, the typical cheap shot from the Ron Paul lunatic fringe that goes unnoticed by the moderators but God forbid gets rebutted with facts because that would be political.
There's a reason why the Libertarian Party will never garner more than token support and it ain't because the rest of us are crazy.

Paul, that was uncalled for. There are plenty of normal people here that support the Libertarian Way. You just did what Sans did, you make an assumption against a group of people.
 
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George, who is jumping to conclusions? I never said that Palestinians killing peaceful Israelis was justified. I am pointing out the fact that their anger is understandable. And that the Palestinians are not the only terrorists in Gaza.

Israel's government treats Palestinians like dogs, and the Palestinians bite back accordingly. It's an ugly situation there, and it goes far beyond "Israel good, Palestine bad."

dodging230grainers wrote:
I used to respect you, Sans.

Please do a little historical research before you make statements like that

If you think that bulldozing the houses of families of suicide bombers will do anything but breed more hatred for Israel and breed more terrorists...

There's even an Israeli organization to stop the bulldozing. http://www.icahd.org/eng/ Did you used to respect them, too?

A quote from the site: "While all this was happening the hapless family was forced to sit nearby, surrounded by soldiers and police, and watch their whole life collapse. Was this a terrorist family? Had a family member committed a heinous crime? No. The Sbeih family story is similar to thousands of other families in the Jerusalem area who are trying to build lives for themselves and their children.

Through the politicized and cynical manipulation of municipal planning and zoning regulations, the government has made it all but impossible for Jerusalem’s Palestinian residents to obtain building permits. However the government is more than happy to ask thousands of dollars for permit applications that are invariably refused. The Sbeih family applied for a permit five years ago. It was a reasonable request. They own the small plot of land on the edge of the village and merely wanted to build a modest 100-meter (900 sq. ft.) home. They were willing to pay for the permit and to comply with all relevant building codes. However, like virtually all applications it was refused, and the family went ahead and built their home. "

You can be sure they do not decline home permits for nice Israeli families, for what they can build on their own land. Or demolish the homes of Israelis who do the same thing.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Darn those terrorists. Always using violence against innocents in order to implement their policies.

Your own words Sans.

Are the Israelis also terrorists? NO! They do not target women and children. Innocents are always unfortunate collateral damage. If you equate the collateral damage the Israelis cause to terrorism, then you are in essense also cursing U.S policy AND U.S troops because we ALSO cause collateral damage. This is why your post is childish. Historically, the Israelis imprison Jewish terrorists, the Arabs do not. This is the difference. Collateral damage DOES NOT equal terrorism. Targeting the innocent DOES!

You can be sure they do not decline home permits for nice Israeli families, for what they can build on their own land. Or demolish the homes of Israelis who do the same thing.

No one said Israeli policy was good or right or proper. Nor do I feel that U.S Eminent Domain Laws are Constitutional. When the U.S Government took my families property for a new highway, did that give me the right to go on a rampage?

I hate when people like you make me defend the policies of governments that I disagree with, make sense first and think before you write.
 
When the Israelis are bulldozing the house belonging to the family of a dead man, who do you suppose they are targeting? Terrorists? Or the wife and children of a dead man? That's sure to bring peace and understanding between the Israelis and Palestinians.

If you call intentionally demolishing a house belonging to a dead suicide bomber's family "collateral damage," then you need to re-check what "collateral damage" is.

-Sans Authoritas
 
You are equating the Israeli policy of Collective Punishment with Collateral Damage. They are not the same in terms of what is terrorism and what is a disputed policy. For the record, I agree with the Israelis demolishing the homes of terrorists and do not call that extreme. Don't take a bulldozer down a narrow crowded street and no one will come to demolish your house, sounds fair to me!

Here in America it is called defending your property and your kin. Now, had Mr. Achmed taken a bulldozer to destroy an Army base full of soldiers and not civillians, I would call that an act of patriotism on his part, even if I would not agree on the reasoning. Do you not yet see the difference? Let me bring it home for you. We are at war with the Arabs so Osama dropped a few buildings on the heads of three thousand civilians, intentionally! Same thing?
 
Why is it that we always get off- track in threads like this? Dump the politics and contribute.

It's not politics, it's semantics. Semantics is important when you realize that we just had a 5-4 ruling on what amounts to semantics.
 
George, semantically speaking, they're not destroying the homes of terrorists. The terrorist is dead. They're destroying the homes of women and children.


Here in America it is called defending your property and your kin. Now, had Mr. Achmed taken a bulldozer to destroy an Army base full of soldiers and not civillians, I would call that an act of patriotism on his part, even if I would not agree on the reasoning. Do you not yet see the difference? Let me bring it home for you. We are at war with the Arabs so Osama dropped a few buildings on the heads of three thousand civillians, intentionally! Same thing?

I do see the difference. The Palestinian who was trying to kill any Israeli was a terrorist. But those Israelis who think they are stopping terrorism by destroying the houses of the families of dead terrorists are doing nothing but breeding more terrorism. I never said anything about collateral damage. If they're taking helicopters in and destroying a house with known terrorists in it, and some houses to the sides are damaged, that's one thing, and it's not something to which I was referring.

I am talking about the policy of going in after the fact: "collective punishment." A violation of logic and the antithesis to the effective attainment of an intended end if ever there were one.

Terrorism is wrong, whether as an individual act or a government policy. Whether it is incendiary bombs set aloft on jetstreams, or FDR and Truman's use of incendiary and nuclear weapons on civilians.

-Sans Authoritas
 
From our stand point Sans, until we experience here what they are experiencing there, I don't think we have the right to a POV.

It's the Hatfields & McCoys, and it doesn't matter why it started or who started it. It will end when there are no more Hatfield or no more McCoys. Either that or they will see the error of their ways (both of them) and get drunk together and let bygones be bygones. Will that happen?
 
George, I think it's safe to say that both sides have some idiots doing some really stupid things that will never accomplish the ends they claim to seek.

Given the history of the region, it's unlikely that anything positive will happen before something very atrocious and catastrophic happens.

Is it possible? Yes. I honestly think the best thing the Israelis could do is immediately and completely open the walls and checkpoints, as well as grant Palestinians full rights of Israeli citizens, if they so desired. There would doubtless be a rocky time for a while, but I think it is one of the only things that could accomplish any long-term good.

-Sans Authoritas
 
George, I did not intend to be one-sided. I thought it was obvious what they can do. The Palestinians have plenty they can do, starting with not being idiots by blowing themselves up in marketplaces and discos and breeding more hatred against the Palestinian people, and they can stop parading terrorist leaders' corpses through the streets as though they are some kind of heroes.

-Sans Authoritas
 
Sans,

I see where you're coming from, but try to imagine the picture.

The country was founded 60 years ago through a hard struggle, after its independence fought several wars to defend itself against complete annihilation by outnumbering enemy forces that would promise to slaughter every Jew in Israel and reclaim their occupied, oppressed territory that makes up about 1/500th of the middle east.

Once those wars are over, and Israel wants to live in peace, all other arab countries reject immigration from the Palestinians living in Israel, begin funding terrorism and teaching hatred to children in schools, and then you have suicide bombings and intifadas slaughtering civilians throughout the 90's up until now.

And when an Israeli artillery squad accidentally kills two children in Gaza because daddy is firing rockets in the backyard at a nearby Israeli town like S'derot, people freak out.

When a commandeered front loader starts pancaking civilians in a Jerusalem market, and unfortunately the only retaliation the Israeli gov. thought of was to demolish his house, people freak out.


Please, put yourself in Israel's shoes. Surely, you Sans, of all people, know media propaganda stations such as CNN love to deceive people. Media like CNN loves to make palestinians look like the poor, oppressed underdog, and the Israelis as this overpowering military regime.

While Israel does not always do the right thing, I'm pretty sure its clear most of the time who strives for peace and who doesn't.
 
Dodging,
The country was founded 60 years ago through a hard struggle,

Yes, against the people who had lived there for centuries after they departed, and right after the Brits, in great part, decided to stage another political intervention in the Middle East with the approbation of the League of Nations, by creating a new nation where people had been living peacefully. It was an influx of people who fled Europe after being driven out and slaughtered, only to drive out the current occupants of the land which they left millenia ago, so they could set up their little government using weapons and equipment supplied by the U.S. government.

If your family had been living there for centuries in relative peace, and Jews of the diaspora all of a sudden returned and told you to pound sand with the approbation of the UN, a bunch of bureaucrats who don't know you, who don't have any right over your land, and who don't care about you, your land or culture, I'll wager you'd be a little resentful, too.

That is not to say that killing Israeli civilians who also try to live peacefully is justified.

In addition, the people living under the U.S. government owe nothing to the Israeli government. Let them sort out their own issues. They've no right to use my coerced money, and especially no right to use my coerced money to give to Israel.

The U.S. government should not be the policeman of the world. Let the Israelis and Palestinians sort out their problems on their own. They need to stop dragging the U.S. government, and by impressions, the people who live under the U.S. government, into entangling alliances.

I have little respect for either side. And I certainly don't want my money being used to support any of it.

-Sans Authoritas
 
know media propaganda stations such as CNN love to deceive people. Media like CNN loves to make palestinians look like the poor, oppressed underdog, and the Israelis as this overpowering military regime.

I keep hearing US media is controlled by Jews, yet the Palestinians are underdogs? How does this work?
 
What stories are you reading?? No gun stop a terrorist, nor did a terrorist get killed. He was NOT a terrorist. NOT NOT NOT. Why do you assume hes a terrorist? Please explain.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L02464503.htm

Please do read the REAL story.

Palestinian building worker kills 3 with bulldozer

* Militant groups do not claim attack but call it "natural"

* Little sign of militant support at attacker's home

* Police now say two of victims were women, paragraph 11

Point 1. No militant groups claimed the attack.

JERUSALEM, July 2 (Reuters) - A Palestinian construction worker rampaged in a bulldozer along one of west Jerusalem's busiest streets on Wednesday, killing three Israelis as he crushed cars and overturned a bus before being shot dead.

NO mention of him being terrorist, lets read on.

There was no claim of responsibility from militant groups and police said they were trying to establish if 30-year-old Hosam Dwayyat had acted alone. At his family home in the Arab east of the city, there was no sign of the crowds and banners that normally accompany the funerals of Palestinian guerrillas.

Nope. No chanting, no huge crowd, nothing indicating he was a terrorist.

Neighbours and relatives, including an uncle, said Dwayyat was divorced from a Jewish Israeli. Police said he had a history of drug offences but no known political affiliation.
I HIGHLY doubt a Palestinian Terrorist would marry a Jewish women.

Read the rest of the story to reinforce this FACT.

Dwayyat drove the 20-tonne earthmoving vehicle for 500 metres (yards) along Jaffa Road, rolling over cars, crushing some occupants, and ramming into a crowded number 13 bus, flipping it on its side with his mechanical shovel.

Dramatic television footage showed the vehicle later at a standstill and a policeman in the cab, as rescue workers and passersby surveyed the wreckage. However, the bulldozer started moving again and a struggle could be seen inside the cab.

A man in civilian clothes leapt aboard and fired a pistol into the cab, followed by a helmeted policeman in body armour who fired an automatic rifle. The officer later said he fired twice at the wounded driver to ensure he was no further threat.

"The only way to stop him was with a bullet to the head," witness Moshe Oren said afterwards. "We were relieved."

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the attack "was an act of senseless, murderous violence". An aide to Abbas called it an attempt to wreck peace negotiations and urged Israel to show restraint in its response.

Abbas's opponents in Hamas and Islamic Jihad said the attack was a "natural" response by Palestinians to Israeli aggression but, nearly two weeks into a truce in the Gaza Strip, neither Islamist group said it was responsible for the incident.

U.S. President George W. Bush called Olmert to offer condolences, Israeli spokesman Regev said.

Medical officials said more than 40 people were taken to hospital. Police at first identified the dead as two Israeli men and a woman, but then corrected this to one man and two women.

BLOODSHED

It was the first Arab attack in Jewish west Jerusalem since a gunman killed eight students on March 6 at a rabbinical seminary a short distance from Jaffa Road.

The scene in the aftermath of the incident was reminiscent of suicide bombings that destroyed buses on Jaffa Road during a wave of attacks in 1996 and during the first years of a Palestinian uprising that began in 2000.

Since then, fatal attacks on Israelis have become relatively rare, despite frequent rocket and mortar fire from Gaza. Israeli forces have killed more than 360 Palestinians this year, mostly in Gaza. More than 100 of the Palestinian dead were civilians.

Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said in Gaza his group did not expect the attack to "influence the Gaza calm".

"There is a continued aggression against our people in the West Bank and Jerusalem and so it is natural that our people there will respond to such aggression," he said.

Hamas's allies, Islamic Jihad, said in a statement: "The Jerusalem Brigades bless the heroic operation in Jerusalem as the natural reaction to the crimes of the occupation."

Unlike Palestinians in the blockaded Gaza Strip and in the occupied West Bank, those living in occupied east Jerusalem have free access to the Jewish west of the city and to Israel.

Arab and Jewish populations do not mix extensively, but thousands of Palestinians work on Israel's roads and building sites. The gunman who attacked the seminary in March was from east Jerusalem. That attack was claimed by Hamas officials.

At Gaza's border crossing with Egypt, Egyptian forces used water cannon and Hamas security forces had to restrain a crowd jostling for access during a brief opening of the Rafah crossing point between the Palestinian enclave and its Arab neighbour.

Some Palestinians threw stones at Egyptian forces and also complained of Hamas's failure to speed their passage to Egypt, the only access to the outside world for most Gazans, who are blocked from other land, sea and air routes by Israel.

So please, stop calling this guy a terrorist. If this makes him a terrorist, then lets call everyone who kills someone a terrorist..ERR or lets not.
 
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