Guns and lease agreements

[Frank Ettin]

2nd Amendment. What if an apartment told you, "if you live here and are female you can't vote"

What an ignorant and nonsensical comment. Why it's ignorant and nonsensical is fully explained in post 15, which you obviously hadn't read, or if read it, you didn't understand it.

 

[Sun Tzu warrior]

There are ways to retain your common law rights under the uniform commercial code, when signing a contract, you may want to educate yourself. Hint; UCC1-207. This could absolve you of the moral delima cited by the moderator in post 15 which I happen to agree with.

 

[ShadowsEye]

Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law), a "no guns" clause is valid and enforceable.

In Minnesota it's illegal for a landlord to forbid the legal ownership of guns on rented property.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law), a "no guns" clause is valid and enforceable.

In Minnesota it's illegal for a landlord to forbid the legal ownership of guns on rented property.

Okay, I knew that was the case in at least one State. If that's the case in Minnesota, that might be the State.

There are ways to retain your common law rights under the uniform commercial code, when signing a contract, you may want to educate yourself. Hint; UCC1-207....

It depends.

1. The UCC was a model law. It needed to be adopted separately in each State. Not every State has adopted the UCC in exactly the same form, and some States may not have adopted portions of the model. So one would need to look at the UCC as adopted in the particular State in which the transaction takes place.
   
   
2. How a particular State's UCC might apply in a particular case or to a particular transaction could be affected by case law.
   
   
3. UCC Article 1, Section 1-207 reads:

   (1) A party who with explicit reservation of rights performs or promises performance or assents to performance in a manner demanded or offered by the other party does not thereby prejudice the rights reserved. Such words as "without prejudice", "under protest" or the like are sufficient.
   
   (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an accord and satisfaction.

   Exactly what right are being reserved? Is a lessee performing if he is violating a provision of the lease? Are there any court decision on point in the OP's or any other jurisdiction (involving partial performance and partial breach of a residential lease)?

 

[Bhamrichard]

That means you are subject to eviction if you are caught in violation. An eviction can be reported to credit reporting agencies and affect your future ability to get credit -- and might also affect your employment.

Uhm, don't think so. If you skip out on paying your rent, and collection proceedings are started, that can go on your credit report. The act of being evicted for "cause" other than a monetary one, cannot be legally reported to your credit file. See "Fair Credit Reporting Act".

 

[Frank Ettin]

...The act of being evicted for "cause" other than a monetary one, cannot be legally reported to your credit file. See "Fair Credit Reporting Act".

There are a variety of ways a non-monetary eviction for cause can generate a discoverable negative history. Most evictions will include a money judgement, at least for costs; and that can be reported it not immediately paid.

Also, there are number of other reporting mechanisms, e.g., see here (item 7) and here.

 

[CarolinaChuck]

Sea lawyers... The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...

Chuck

 

[Frank Ettin]

Sea lawyers...

Actually, I'm a very real lawyer. Retired now, but I practiced successfully for over thirty years before I retired.

What kind of lawyer are you?

..The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...

Nonsense. As I point out the U. S. Supreme Court has been quite clear that the Constitution does not regulate private conduct.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Don't you mean, "Don't enter in a contract you don't plan to abide by"?

Yes....darn smart phone and idiot user.

 

[thorazine]

Hi all, I am contemplating moving to a different state I'm having trouble finding an apartment/house in the area that doesn't have a no firearms policy- these seem to be boiler-plate like the restricted dog breeds most of them have(German sheperds really?). In my youth I lived for a year(saving for a house) in a apartment with these rules after a shooting in the neighborhood I brought a gun back from my parents and kept it in the house figuring they could just ask me to leave.
In the same situation today (as a licensed vet) I don't want to get in any trouble. Does anyone know if these have the for e of law or I get asked to leave worst case?

Did you ask (verbally) or did you read it in the lease agreement?

I'm guessing you asked.

For I have rented condo type / townhouse type units through large management type companies and there has never been "no firearms" wordings in the lease agreement.

If you inquire ahead of time your just asking to have the lease amended and a "no firearms" provision inserted.

Just ask for a copy of the lease in advance so you can "review it" and don't mention anything about firearms.

 

[rtroha]

Unless there is a state law prohibiting a "no guns" clause in a residential lease (and AFAIK only one State, I think Michigan, has such a law)

Add Ohio to the list, at least for concealed handgun licensees.

(b) A landlord may not prohibit or restrict a tenant who is a licensee and who on or after the effective date of this amendment enters into a rental agreement with the landlord for the use of residential premises, and the tenant's guest while the tenant is present, from lawfully carrying or possessing a handgun on those residential premises.

 

[Bubbles]

Also add Virginia, when I rented out my TH my attorney told me that I couldn't have that in a lease (not that I wanted to anyway).

 

[Frank Ettin]

Add Ohio to the list, at least for concealed handgun licensees.

Also add Virginia, when I rented out my TH my attorney told me that I couldn't have that in a lease (not that I wanted to anyway).

Okay.

So far we have some confirmation that Minnesota, Ohio (if the tenant has a concealed handgun permit) and Virginia prohibit a "no guns" clause in a residential lease. Any more?

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

qwert65-

1. You will have more flexibility modifying your lease with an individual as opposed to a big company so look to them.

2. Poke around on google and find the standard lease forms for your area. Real Estate Agents always have freebies. See e.g. Southern Maryland Realtors page here.

3. Find the form lease with the language you like the best and take it with you when you see the place. Once you negotiate the details, pull out the one you like and fill it out. Your landlord may sign it right there.

4. If your landlord is an individual with his own form lease, it is probably from Legalzoom, point out all the jurisdictional specific language in yours, that is not in his (for example in FL, Radon Gas warnings). As long as your form is from some reputable local organization he will probably go with yours.

5. If your landlord is insistent, tell him you will have to look at his in more detail. Scan his lease into your computer, and mark it up in word. Take out all inapplicable language (i.e. references to wood floors if the apartment is carpeted, references to common hallways if you are renting a whole house), and the language that offends you, make the lease as pretty and professional as possible and send it back. The better formatted your lease looks, the more likely the landlord is to take it. You would be surprised how often this works -- even with big companies. Also, if your landlord doesn't have the authority or temperament to take inapplicable language out of a lease, you probably don't want to live there.

 

[Bhamrichard]

The man can not abridge your Contitutional rights, even under contract, without being held liable. It is that simple...

Balderdash... The Constitution applies to the Federal Government, some but not all of that document (with amendments) have been incorporated against the states. However it does absolutely zero against a private citizen.

If you sign a contract with a person, or business entity, you just agreed to whatever is in that contract, and it is entirely enforceable as written.

 

[k_dawg]

Think of it this way, would YOU wish to knowingly move into a place which loudly and proudly proclaimed "No Coloreds Allowed" or "Jews Unwelcome"

?

 

[slumlord44]

Never heard of that one unless it was Federaly Subsidised Housing. Think they ban guns in the projects. Personaly have no problem with guns. Criminal activity, yes, guns as long as they are legal, no problem. Maybe they will leave some when they move out? I would try asking one of the places you are looking at and see what they say. As stated earlier, I would be hesitant to sign a lease and just ignore the no gun thing. That would piss me off. Asking would not.

 

[TenDriver]

The best thing to do is rent from small-scale landlords rather than through a PMC. They just want a quiet tenant who pays on time and usually don't try to foist five pages of boilerplate on you.[/QUOTE

Entirely true. I have a rental house. My rules are simple. Don't trash it. Pay me on time. If you can't pay me on time, keep me in the loop and we'll work with you.

You'd be surprised how many people have trouble with that few rules.

Not knowing where the OP is looking for an apartment, but I'd go find a house to rent for a while. We charge less than what a comparable apartment goes for and it seems we're not the only ones.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

I don't have much tolerance for landlords with long lease agreements. The more words there are, the more they are trying to screw you. Find someone friendly who is renting a small house. In my experience, the costs of renting a small house (at least in the Midwest) are about the same as the cost of a two or three bedroom apartment, with greater freedom and flexibility. I have never lived in an apartment longer than three months, simply because I don't like the nosiness, inflexibility, and loud neighbors.

In terms of the contract, Frank Ettin wonders why we have a society with no honesty. I wonder why we have a society in which people think they have any say over someone else's fundamental right. I'm fine in dealing fairly with people who deal fairly with me. However, these policies have little force.

I also believe that when you are forced to deal with someone who insists on such policies and cannot find another option due to some pressing concern, you have no obligation to comply, as they have come from a position of power to deny a fundamental right.

Rich vs. poor, landlord vs. renter, lender vs. debtor, govt. vs. citizen/subject, and attacker vs. defender are the oldest social conflicts we know. Our best fortune in this country is that life often offers us other options, and our best choice is to simply avoid those people and institutions that would put us in the position of these kinds of power struggles.

 

[lemaymiami]

I've read most all of the comments here and actually find both sides (Mr. Ettin on the strictly legal side and the man from Texas on the practical side...) have very valid points of view. My take is a bit sideways but comes from being the cop in between a wide variety of civil disputes before they wound up in court....

Landlords (and their attorneys) face a variety of difficulties any time that one of their tenants uses a firearm in any situation (lawful or otherwise). If they allow their tenants to keep weapons they end up on the "deep pockets" end of civil situations. If they prohibit weapons they discourage decent folk that happen to be gun owners.... As a result many include this sort of clause in their leases - not because of any intent to scrutinize and take action against their tenants - but certainly to place themselves in a better situation if a civil action results from the use of a firearm on their premises...
That local restaurant with the "no firearms allowed" sign is acting from a similar point of view.....

Here's how I see it.... in real life we all face choices and as adults will have to deal with the consequences. If every party to any contract strictly lived up to the agreements... there'd never be the slightest need for attorneys. Of course, that's just not how folks behave in real life. And if you're going to keep a firearm where you're not allowed - it's probably a pretty good idea not to mention it or display it, etc. (and a quiet prayer that it's never needed might also be in order.....).

Given those contradictions I would never have a problem with anyone making the choice to violate the part of any rental contract prohibiting the keeping of firearms in their own residence provided they realize the consequences if there were ever a problem that occurred afterward. Pretty simple to avoid eviction by moving before any civil action (if necessary). A choice to have the means to defend yourself and family and at the same time break one of the elements of a rental contract wouldn't be a difficult one for most of us... I can actually see the landlord's position as well since we live in a society where a pack of hungry lawyers is a possible outcome for any dispute.... not to mention the actual need to use a firearm to defend your life or another's.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I don't have much tolerance for landlords with long lease agreements. The more words there are, the more they are trying to screw you....

If you want to know why contracts, not just leases, are getting longer and more involved, you have only to look at some of your other comments in your post.

...In terms of the contract, Frank Ettin wonders why we have a society with no honesty. I wonder why we have a society in which people think they have any say over someone else's fundamental right. I'm fine in dealing fairly with people who deal fairly with me....

Honesty is not elastic. And dealing fairly is making the terms of the deal clear. Dealing fairly does not mean making the deal on your terms. If you don't like the terms, look elsewhere.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

+1 to lemaymiami… I really agree with the idea of the difficulty of the contradictions in this world, and you expressed our dilemma quite well. Things are seldom as “cut and dried” as people like to make it, and in fact that is one of the points I was trying to make. Things are easy when people are on the same level in terms of social power, but when differing levels come into play, things get sticky. I can see that my view of this aspect differs from Frank Ettin’s, and that is fine. I applaud his willingness to consider honesty as a kind of perfect duty that must always be adhered to. (However, if you read my first post, I did state that your first task if you don’t like lease terms is to look elsewhere, so on that point we agree.)

In the end, it is your decision to act according to your moral code, whatever that is. Act, and there are consequences to you and others no matter what you do.

 

[Torian]

I have found this to be the case in a couple apartment complexes that I've stayed in. Any time I've brought this up, I've been able to insert language into the lease like "lawfully owned firearms are permitted". The most these guys could do is try to evict you, but since you would be an otherwise good tenant paying their bills on time, I find it unlikely. That aside, I never proceed with just a verbal contract...I will write it in myself and ask them to sign off on it.

 

[qwert65]

Some good suggestions thanks guys I'm looking at houses to rent for now hopefully I won't need to consider breaking a lease