Guns in an apartment?

[Control Group]

A hypothetical question.

I'm going to be moving in May to an apartment in a highly gun-unfriendly city (Madison, WI). If the property owner were to take it into his head to do so, could he legally bar me from keeping guns on the premises? If so, would it have to be in the text of the lease agreement, or could he make it "policy" later on?

On the one hand, it's his private property, which would generally mean that yes, he could. On the other hand, I know that renting an apartment puts the apartment in kind of a semi-private area, where neither he nor I have full private property rights.

To clarify, I don't have any reason to think he would try to prevent me from keeping firearms in the apartment. I don't intend to press the issue - don't ask, don't tell strikes me as a good policy in this instance. But I am curious.

 

[ALHunter]

From my limited recall of landlord tenant law, yes and no.
Unilaterally, he can prevent any illegal item via the lease. If your firearms are all legally purchased, no problem for you.
Bilaterally, he can put a clause in the lease that forbids firearms in apartments. If you sign it, you agree to it. A lease is nothing more than a contract. Some aprtments I've lived at had clauses in lease saying "no boats on trailers in parking lot" or "no RV's in parking lot". If I had a boat on a trailer, even if legally owned, but had signed the lease with that clause in it then I'd be in violation. Most lease forms are standard issue. I highly doubt you will have a problem. On the other hand, if you do, I recommend finding a different apartment complex as a residence.

 

[jnojr]

I would read the contract for anti-gun provisions. If there are none, don't say a word... what the landlord doesn't know isn't going to hurt him. If there are, and if there's an abundance of rental properties available, tell him you'll sign if that clause is stricken. If rentals are tight, though, you may have to suck it up and either store your guns somewhere else, or keep 'em with you and be very stealthy.

 

[Trebor]

Read the lease very carefully before you sign it. Keep an eye out for *anything* that seems unfavorable or odd, not just things that are firearms related. I'm thinking of provisions that allow the landlord to inspect the premises "at any time." Commonly, landlords have the right to inspect with prior notice, but some want to be able to come in unannounced, at any time, to check the condition of the apartment or make sure there are no illegal activities going on.

Generally, firearms aren't mentioned specifically in the lease. Just read it carefully and you'll be OK.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

My understanding is that you renting the property very much makes it yours (so long as you're paying).

Therefore, I think he would have a hard time putting it into force. Especially, if it wasn't in the original lease.

I'm not a lawyer though.

I've rented for many years and have never heard of such a clause anywhere except for a storage lot.

 

[MrAcheson]

You really need a lawyer on this one. My guess is that he can forbid firearms on the premises. I have seen rental storage places in my area that forbid firearms storage there (right next to no jewelry, cash, and hazardous materials). They do this because their insurance considers firearms storage to be at too high risk for theft.

I doubt he can just make it unwritten policy whenever he feels like it and have it stick. But a lot of leases do have "we can change whatever we want when we want it" clauses. If he does add it, there is a good possibility it gives you an "out" to sever the lease and go someplace else. Again it probably depends on local rental laws. Around here I'm pretty sure the lease I sign is the lease I'm held by until the time comes for me to renew. I'm guessing that most places would require you to explicitly sign those rights away instead of giving people broad powers to take them whenever they want.

A lot of this stuff, rental laws and the like, vary state by state and possibly even town by town if you are moving into a city.

 

[Standing Wolf]

On the other hand, I know that renting an apartment puts the apartment in kind of a semi-private area, where neither he nor I have full private property rights.

I believe the law varies a great deal from state to state. In most states, if you're renting it, you enjoy all the rights as if you owned it.

 

[mattf7184]

In FL he can make a no firearms policy part of the lease or as an addition that you must sign to take up occupancy.

I've stayed at places with a no firearms policy on the lease, but as the manager said, if you dont see it, it doesnt matter (he also had a lease with the property owner and had an 870 in his apt). I was desperately looking for a place then, but now will not sign a lease with a complex with a firearms policy because I dont want them to have my money.

If he just feels like it later, unless it is in the lease that he can (highly unlikely, doubt it would hold up in court), he cannot just make random rules as far as I recall. To make you abide by it, it has to be in writing. Also, you would be under duress if he made you sign a new agreement while you stayed there and it would not hold up in court.

 

[Typhoon]

My understanding is that you renting the property very much makes it yours (so long as you're paying).

That's the law in California, anyway, particularly when it is a dwelling. I would imagine that a similar concept is true in most jurisdictions.

Storage space vs. dwelling? I haven’t really examined that. I do know that most jurisdictions have strict regulations regarding landlords’ ability to enter your house/apartment. Except for emergencies (fire, flood, etc.) there is usually a statutorily defined notice period that must be given before a landlord can enter your space (typically 24 hours, or by your written permission.) Also, I would find it difficult to believe that anything you can own legally can be forbidden in your legally rented space. Common areas in apartment complexes (yard, pool) are deemed to be public spaces. Yard/pool in a rented house typically are deemed to be private areas, and subject to the same "use" policy as indoors.

Check your lease, and the appropriate code (available on the Internet). I wouldn’t worry, but find a good way to secure your weapons. Better safe than sorry…

 

[DelayedReaction]

It has to be in the lease, as far as I know. I live in an apartment that's on university property, and one of the requirements of the lease is that I abide by the Code of Student Conduct (I'm a student so it applies). The code prohibits possession of firearms, so I'm not allowed to keep it in my apartment.

Only a few more months until I move out...

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

My lease says "no firearms are to be stored in the apartment". If I break this rule, my landlord would be fully within his rights to evict me. It isn't illegal for me to store a gun in my apartment. My only liability for getting cought with a gun in the apartment is the loss of my lease.

Landlords generally have the right to inspect their property. They absolutely do not have the right to rumage through their tenant's personal belongings. So if your guns are out in the open you may have a problem. But if they're not in plain sight (locked in a safe, perhaps) your landlord would have no legal means to discover them. If he finds them via illegal means (such as searching inside a locked container) then he would have no legal means to act against you.

If you must, sign the lease even though it says "no guns". Make sure that they're locked up out of sight and you shouldn't have any problems.

 

[mustangsally]

My landlady asked me if I had a gun rack I was planning to mount on the wall, because, if so, she wanted to have her contractor do it for me. I love Montana.

 

[beerslurpy]

Read your lease, that is where any anti-gun clauses are going to hide.

I've never come across a lease with anti-gun provisions and Ive rented in MD, CA and FL. Most apartments to great lengths to avoid drug problems, because that is the well from which property confiscation springs.

Since guns arent illegal, most places arent going to go out of their way to limit their liability in that regard.

That being said, I would be wary of "maintenance checks" and other excuses for the apt people to enter your rented abode. If they see contraband, they will contact the police. If they see things that merely look like contraband, they will contact the police. My friend in CA has a ton of "assault weapons" which he fortunately registered. The landlord came into his apartment when he was out and called the police when they saw all the reloading equipment and magazines lying around. Dunno if his guns were out of in a closet/safe.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Landlords generally have the right to inspect their property.

It depends on the state. I have rented in two different states, and in both the landlord was allowed BY LAW to enter only by appointment, except in the event of a bona fide emergency. In most states, landlords do not have any right to walk into your apartment for a look-see any time they feel the urge.

 

[Trebor]

It depends on the state. I have rented in two different states, and in both the landlord was allowed BY LAW to enter only by appointment, except in the event of a bona fide emergency. In most states, landlords do not have any right to walk into your apartment for a look-see any time they feel the urge.

It also depends on the lease. Even in states where landlords can normally only enter after making an appointment, if you sign a lease that says otherwise, you may have just signed your rights away. Even if you think the law is on your side, check the lease carefully.

 

[whm1974]

It also depends on the lease. Even in states where landlords can normally only enter after making an appointment, if you sign a lease that says otherwise, you may have just signed your rights away. Even if you think the law is on your side, check the lease carefully.

I would doublecheck that. The law may not allow that on a lease. Landlords do put stuff on contracts they know that isn't legal.

-Bill

 

[XenaduKhan]

Some states allow landlords to exclude firearms via the lease (if they so choose), while others do not allow this (rendering any such provision of the lease null and void.)

 

[Gray Peterson]

State Landlord Tenant laws usually disallow certain kinds of restrictions. I know that the Minnesota Personal Protection Act prohibited landlords from putting restrictions on tenants ownership of legal firearms.

Of course, if you fire and there are holes in the wall, you'll probably have to repair it, or you might be evicted for putting damage into the apartment.

I'm also an apartment leasee too.

 

[dloken]

How can Madison, WI be firearms unfriendly? Wisconsin law states that local laws regarding firearms can't be stricter than state laws.

66.0409(2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.

 

[Trebor]

Landlords do put stuff on contracts they know that isn't legal.

Very true. I guess the answer is to read the lease carefully and know the law of your own state.

 

[Control Group]

How can Madison, WI be firearms unfriendly?

It's run by the leftist of the left, and populated almost exclusively by college students, college professors, government employees, and well-to-do ex-hippies. Madison does whatever it feels like, state law or no.

There is a ban on discharging firearms inside city limits. This means no ranges inside the city.

While open carry is legal, Madison's stated policy is that anyone caught open carrying be arrested for criminal disorderly conduct.

While selling handguns is legal, Madison's zoning decisions disallow any handgun retailer to operate inside city limits. This is why you can't buy handguns at the Madison Gander Mountain.

Basically, the People's Democratic Republic of Madison does its own thing, and, to date, has not been conclusively called on it. For the average citizen, it's not worth the extraordinary hassle and expense of trying to "fight city hall." For the area businesses, there's not enough money in handguns to justify suing the city.

In any event, thanks to everyone for the insight and opinions on this one. Guess I'll just peruse the lease with a proverbial eagle eye before signing (which, of course, is the right thing to do, anyway).

 

[dloken]

The disorderly conduct/disturbing the peace thing for open carry is the same in Milwaukee and also Racine where I live.

Also it's not like the area around Madison is urban, it's rural as all hell so i'm sure there are plenty of places to shoot.

Btw, what ranges do you recommend in SE WI?

 

[Control Group]

I'm fairly new to this whole thing myself, so I'm no expert on area ranges, and if you're in Racine, the ones I know best aren't going to be particularly close. Badger Outdoor and The Shooter's Shop are both located in Milwaukee itself, and Fletcher Arms is out in Waukesha. I've been to each, and each has its points. Badger's got the most bays, Shooter's Shop is the friendliest and has the best actual range set up, Fletcher Arms is the cheapest. Personally, my favorite is the Shooter's Shop.

Closer to you, though, there's a range down on 6 mile/Hwy G, a ways east of 94 (just east of highways 31 and 32, IIRC) called the Shooter's Sports Center. I've never been inside, so I can't comment.

Out towards Madison, in Deerfield, is the Deerfield Pistol and Archery Center, and they're right up there with Shooter's Shop in quality. Run by friendly people, real nice range, but only five bays. I haven't had a problem getting a bay so far, though.

I know some friends of mine love Ed's Guns and Range in Whitewater, but, again, I haven't been there, so I can't comment. It's the only public-access outdoor range I know of in SE WI, though (this doesn't mean they don't exist, I may have just not found them yet), which is why I mention it.

As far as private ranges, the only one I've had the chance to look at is the Stoughton Conservation Club, in (unsurprisingly) Stoughton. Given that you're in Racine, I don't imagine that's a worthwhile one for you to look at.

Anyway, that's all I know on the subject. But if you run across any ranges I've missed, feel free to PM me any time; it can't hurt to have more places to shoot!

 

[LoneStranger]

I believe that my lease says something about not "using" firearms, so I have taken the position that I am not supposed to target shoot in my apartment or shoot skeet in the parking lot. At the lease signing I made this apparent and the manager laughed.

I try to keep my firearms locked up and out of sight, I don't talk about them with anyone in the complex, I try to be discrete when moving them in and out. Helps that I am on reasonable terms with management group. No attitude, or troublemaking.

Like a lot of things, If you make a point of throwing it in their face they will take notice. Pay attention to what you are doing and don't get on a high horse. Remember that it is their property and you in effect are just visiting. Make them feel good about ignoring your activities.

 

[dloken]

Closer to you, though, there's a range down on 6 mile/Hwy G, a ways east of 94 (just east of highways 31 and 32, IIRC) called the Shooter's Sports Center. I've never been inside, so I can't comment.

Yeah, that's where I shoot although as far as being a shop I wouldn't say they're the best. They're not bad for price for a range though.

They do host a subgun match every third Saturday though, which is a blast. There are a few MGs brought in that are available to be rented on the match days even.