Guns Of The Mountain Men

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ThomasT

ThomasT

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Ask about anyone what rifles the beaver trappers and mountain men carried with them and you will be told they carried Hawken guns made by Sam and Jacob Hawken in St Louis.

I thought so too. But a little more reading and google searching turned this up. I also stated in another thread that I also suspected that those eastern men who came west probably brought their eastern rifles with them and used them in the mountains. It looks like my guess was correct. And there were many more non Hawken rifles in the mountains than you would think. This article makes it sound like Hawkens were sort of scarce by comparison. Its a good read. Hope you like it.

http://traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/rifles

This rifle maker also supplied a lot of the rifles used by trappers and explorers and supplied trade rifles to the government. Henry lemon supplied a huge amount of rifles for a long period of time until his death and the closing of his plant.

http://americansocietyofarmscollecto...051_Hanson.pdf
 
the hawken shop honestly could only turn out so many guns per year..

I would have to guess that the majority of guns used by the actual mountain men were not hawkens.

thye may of been loosely made copies mainly because it was a good design.for what was needed at the time.

you have to remember by the time the beaver trade really got under way, most large game had been shot out east of the the big river.

a 50 cal gun east of st louis was a waste for shooting deer and small game.lead and powder was at a premium.

im sure many men going west used their 36 to 45 cal rifles.. once they got in the rockys and were confronted by 1000 lb grizz and elk. they changed their tune and wished for a larger cal hawken.. but since there was no local gun stores they prob just kept on using the small caliber rifle until they could upgrade.
 
id have to agree with the smoothbore thing. cheap and easy to make and get out the door.

and if made well very effective at close range. a well made smoothbore was prob on par with a 12 ga slug gun up until they started with the sabots and rifleling the barrels.
 
PapaG I would love to see a few pictures of your Leman rifle if you have them. You would think that with the thousands of rifles built by Leman they would be somewhat common but I guess most remaining guns are hidden away in collections.

I am reading the Ned Roberts Muzzleoading Caplock Rifle book I just got and he stated the Hawken rifle was the "Ne Plus Ultra" of guns that the early pioneers, explorers and gold field folks wanted to own and they would pay or trade about anything to get one. But by comparison there just wasn't that many of them to be had. Leman made more rifles in one year than the Hawken brothers made in total.

Did anyone catch the ratio of Leman rifles that were flintlocks to percussion? Just a quick look and to me it was about five flintlocks to every percussion gun and that was still true around 1860 when you would think the FL would have been about dead. But I guess so many went to the Indians who could always knap a flint but couldn't always get caps. Makes sense.

And I agree there were many smooth bores in the mountains there is no mention in the link to Leman that he ever made any smooth bore guns. But he didn't start gun making until 1834, about the time the fur trade with the mountain men was winding down. I would guess a lot of the smooth bores in the mountain man era may have been left over muskets from the revolution and the war of 1812. Nothing wrong with a smooth bore either. I have been tempted to get one myself.

In an article in the Backwoodsman magazine the author wrote about civil war rifles that been bored out to smooth bores and sold as shotguns to the settlers of the western expansion.
 
Ratshooter said:
PapaG I would love to see a few pictures of your Leman rifle if you have them. You would think that with the thousands of rifles built by Leman they would be somewhat common but I guess most remaining guns are hidden away in collections.

I am reading the Ned Roberts Muzzleoading Caplock Rifle book I just got and he stated the Hawken rifle was the "Ne Plus Ultra" of guns that the early pioneers, explorers and gold field folks wanted to own and they would pay or trade about anything to get one. But by comparison there just wasn't that many of them to be had. Leman made more rifles in one year than the Hawken brothers made in total.

Did anyone catch the ratio of Leman rifles that were flintlocks to percussion? Just a quick look and to me it was about five flintlocks to every percussion gun and that was still true around 1860 when you would think the FL would have been about dead. But I guess so many went to the Indians who could always knap a flint but couldn't always get caps. Makes sense.

And I agree there were many smooth bores in the mountains there is no mention in the link to Leman that he ever made any smooth bore guns. But he didn't start gun making until 1834, about the time the fur trade with the mountain men was winding down. I would guess a lot of the smooth bores in the mountain man era may have been left over muskets from the revolution and the war of 1812. Nothing wrong with a smooth bore either. I have been tempted to get one myself.

In an article in the Backwoodsman magazine the author wrote about civil war rifles that been bored out to smooth bores and sold as shotguns to the settlers of the western expansion.
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I'll see what I can do.
 
I have two original caplock rifles. Both have been in the family for generations. Both .40 caliber. (Im holding one of them in my avatar pic)
20180503_205358.jpg
This one went to the gold rush at Pikes peak with an ancestor. By the time he got there, the rush was over. He got a job surveying and laying out the streets in Colorado Springs, and returned here the following spring.
 
ridgerunner1965 said:
the hawken shop honestly could only turn out so many guns per year..
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I read one of the eailer guns they made was requested and made for General Ashley as in Ashley's 100. Later the Rocky Mountain Fur Company. A half stock Hawken flintlock. I believe I read one has never been found but according to references, there's proof of the half stock Hawken's flintlocks existing.

Just thought I'd add this to the topic since I recently bought a Lyman kit version. My very first rifle kit and flintlock. 20180912_140113.jpg

So much more fun than caps. And cartridges for that matter. 20180912_140134.jpg Browning it was new to me but I think it turned out well. 20180912_141951.jpg
The rod wouldn't take to the stain so I may have to get a dark wood replacement.
 

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I have two original caplock rifles. Both have been in the family for generations.
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Thats cool Armored Farmer. I wish I had a serviceable old rifle like that to play with. I did get to hold an old worn out half stock a man had hanging on his wall. That sucker must have weighed 13 pounds. I didn't dare cock the hammer. That gun was just worn out and the barrel was rusted beyond salvage. But I would have loved to have owned it.

Mn Fats your gonna really like that gun. You did a great job on the build and the browning. I have the percussion version and it is an accurate rifle with round balls. It even shoots the Lee 320gr 50 calibber bullet good enough for hunting out to 75 yards. The 250gr Lee REAL may even be a better choice in the slow 1/60 twist. When I bought my gun many years ago from Natchez Shooters Supply the kit was around $210 IIC. The finished rifle was about $240. I got lazy and bought the finished rifle thinking if I didn't like it I could redo it. Turns out it was a well built gun just like it came.

I just bought a Lyman Trade Rifle NIB in with flint ignition. I haven't shot it and may just sell it. Its a nice gun but I am not sure I want to mess with the Flintlock system. I made a flint chip and it sparks like crazy. I think it would be a reliable gun.

To get your ramrod to brown get some brown leather dye. Thats what I used on that CVA pistol I built from a kit and posted a while back. Wood stain just wouldn't color it.
 
The Hawken was considered one of the better made guns. Leman and others also made quality rifles. And as Jack said, many a smoothbore.
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I am reading the Ned Roberts book The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle right now and he states that the Hawken was the "Ne Plus Ultra" of guns and that those who wanted one would pay about any price and trade whatever they could to get one. There were many half stock rifles built but none had the reputation of a Hawken rifle. Or the price. A Hawken from what I have read cost 4-6 times more than other similar guns. Were they worth it? To some I suppose they were.

And I bet that anyone who had a string of pack horses probably had a rifle across the saddle and a shotgun on the first pack horse back. Both were just as useful back then as they are today.
 
Ratshooter said:
Mn Fats your gonna really like that gun. You did a great job on the build and the browning. I have the percussion version and it is an accurate rifle with round balls. It even shoots the Lee 320gr 50 calibber bullet good enough for hunting out to 75 yards. The 250gr Lee REAL may even be a better choice in the slow 1/60 twist. When I bought my gun many years ago from Natchez Shooters Supply the kit was around $210 IIC. The finished rifle was about $240. I got lazy and bought the finished rifle thinking if I didn't like it I could redo it.
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I already do like it! Never fired a flintlock in my life until I assembled this one. They call em "Flinch locks" but I can't figure why. A puff out the side and a push to the shoulder. Smells good. Pretty pleasant shooting.

I appreciate your kind words on my build.
 
Nice job on the Lyman. Just as an afterthought flinters held on till the early 1900s, have spoken with relatives that remembered their grandparents using flinters. I imagine they held on in places where you had trouble finding or affordable ammunition.
 
Ratshooter said:
I just bought a Lyman Trade Rifle NIB in with flint ignition. I haven't shot it and may just sell it. Its a nice gun but I am not sure I want to mess with the Flintlock system. I made a flint chip and it sparks like crazy. I think it would be a reliable gun.
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Dont sell it until you've tried it. Lyman has decent locks, worth messing with the flintlock system. Way fun. I'm not sure of the twist on the trade rifle though..
 
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Jackrabbit1957 said:
Nice job on the Lyman. Just as an afterthought flinters held on till the early 1900s, have spoken with relatives that remembered their grandparents using flinters. I imagine they held on in places where you had trouble finding or affordable ammunition.
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Yep, when caps became a thing, a lot of mountain men still hung on to flintlocks. Made they're own flints. Unlimited ignition.
 
When my father went through his 'Mountain Man' phase in the early 80's he bought a Hawken .50 cal.

That thing recoiled like a lightweight shotgun shooting slugs. Fun though.

'Run what you brung' has been in effect for a long, long time. Men heading West were often not very well off financially and were often seeking a new life.

The Hawken in my mind for that period in history in the Rocky Mountains is probably what the Walker Colt was in Texas a little later on and then the Colt Single Action Army a little after that. People associate those guns with those time periods because it's what they'd want to be armed with. The truth is not everyone could afford them though or they might not have been available due to high demand.
 
Here's an original [Sam] Hawken rifle that was converted from flintlock to percussion.
From the stamping, it appears that it would have been built after 1849 when Jacob Hawken died, but before Sam & William Hawken moved to Colorado.
The [forestock] nose cap doesn't have the styling that I would expect, since it looks more like a contemporary half-stock reproduction rifle.

There's a yellow full screen tab on the auction page to view the photos:--->>> https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/66/1135/s-hawken-st-louis-marked-percussion-rifle
 
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I wonder how many battlefield pickups from the Revolutionary War and War of 1812 made it west of the Mississippi and into the mountains? I’m guessing, but I suspect a lot of old military arms were carried out west, especially in the 1820s through the 1850s. I don’t have the history background that many of you do, but it makes sense that not everyone had a Hawken, just like not every cowboy carried a Colt.
 
Dont sell it until you've tried it. Lyman has decent locks, worth messing with the flintlock system. Way fun. I'm not sure of the twist on the trade rifle though..
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The trade rifle has a 1/48 twist. I found a gun like a cabelas hawken also made by Investarms that instead of the 1/48 twist it has a 1/60 twist like the GP rifle but looks exactly like a Cabelas Hawken. I am interested. But I am getting too many BP guns. And I just finished redoing the TC Renegade I bought. I refinished the stock, removed the crappy blueing and browned the steel parts.

Arcticap thanks for the link. Lots of strange things with that gun though. I have read that there were no half stock Hawken flinters. But that one was. The stock looks short for the barrel and its in walnut and I thought all they used was plain maple for stocks. I have no doubt that is a real Hawken gun. Just goes to show that you can't make any absolutes when talking about these old guns. They would have built you anything you wanted if you had the scratch to pay for it.
 
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