H110 and W296
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TimSr
Member
Old Speer #9 and #10 manuals listed Olin296 and H110 separately, but all the numbers were very close together.
Most people have no idea what they're talking about, especially when it comes to technical information. I have no idea if 296 and 110 are the same powder nowadays but I strongly doubt it. To prove me wrong though you'd have to show me the chemical formula for each and proof that they were made at the same plant and simply relabeled by their company.
The last I heard all Winchester powder is manufactured at their plant in St. Marks Fla. and Hodgdon powder can be from several places but not from the St. Marks plant so the chances of them being the same is pretty slim since they are made in two different plants. The confusion probably comes from the fact that Hodgdon is licensed by Olin to use the Winchester name on some of their powders which probably confused some people in to thinking that Hodgdon is using Winchester's powder and simply naming it H110.
The last I heard all Winchester powder is manufactured at their plant in St. Marks Fla. and Hodgdon powder can be from several places but not from the St. Marks plant so the chances of them being the same is pretty slim since they are made in two different plants. The confusion probably comes from the fact that Hodgdon is licensed by Olin to use the Winchester name on some of their powders which probably confused some people in to thinking that Hodgdon is using Winchester's powder and simply naming it H110.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I'm guessing it's a good thing you wrote that first sentence.
Before you tell anyone they don't know what they are talking about you should inform yourself. Facts do matter no matter what you "think."
Write St. Marks Powder plant and they will tell you straight out with no word games both W296 and H110 are poured from the same spigot under a different label. When you write Hodgdon they will tell you the same and add not only are they the same powder now but have always been.
I can not prove both sources are telling the truth but I see no reason for them to lie. You have a right to your opinion but no right to make up your own facts.
*EDIT*
I just looked at the MSDS for both labels and the numbers are identical but more importantly, both documents were prepared by St. Marks Powders.
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I always wonder about people that have to start a disagreement by being rude. Sorry, but I didn't get the memo on these powders being the same - besides you still haven't proven a thing and third party hearsay isn't factual data.
I did find a good video of an interview with Chris Hodgdon wherein he "seems" to say that H110 and W296 are the same powder (around the 53:20 minute mark in the video) but did he really say that?
Notice that Mr. Hodgdon says that W296 and H110 and a couple other powders are "virtually" the same thing "or" the same thing. Then the interviewers follow up by asking (at 53:45) if these powders are the same thing then why are they made by different companies and Mr. Hodgdon says because of customers have brand loyalty. My point is that Mr. Hodgdon agrees that these powders are being made at different facilities, which means that they are NOT coming from the same spigot. They may have the same formulation but they aren't being made by one supplier.
Like most Internet rumor I feel that this whole argument comes from poor communication skills, people hear what they want to hear and not necessarily what was actually said. I suspect that what the factory reps and others in the industry are doing is taking a short cut to save time by saying that these powders are the same because it's much faster and easier than to get in to a long drawn out explanation about how powder is made and where.
Regardless, I've used both since the late 1970s and simply tune the load when I switch to a different lot number.
I did find a good video of an interview with Chris Hodgdon wherein he "seems" to say that H110 and W296 are the same powder (around the 53:20 minute mark in the video) but did he really say that?
Notice that Mr. Hodgdon says that W296 and H110 and a couple other powders are "virtually" the same thing "or" the same thing. Then the interviewers follow up by asking (at 53:45) if these powders are the same thing then why are they made by different companies and Mr. Hodgdon says because of customers have brand loyalty. My point is that Mr. Hodgdon agrees that these powders are being made at different facilities, which means that they are NOT coming from the same spigot. They may have the same formulation but they aren't being made by one supplier.
Like most Internet rumor I feel that this whole argument comes from poor communication skills, people hear what they want to hear and not necessarily what was actually said. I suspect that what the factory reps and others in the industry are doing is taking a short cut to save time by saying that these powders are the same because it's much faster and easier than to get in to a long drawn out explanation about how powder is made and where.
Regardless, I've used both since the late 1970s and simply tune the load when I switch to a different lot number.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
macgrumpy, you keep saying they are made at different facilities but I already posted St. Marks Powder is the publisher of the MSDS for both. Since the manufacturer publishes the MSDS I'm not sure what other proof would be necessary. Where is your proof they are made at different facilities?
I'm guessing you have not yet written either Hodgdon, St. Marks Powder or both. You want to see a video as proof but won't ask the source? Priceless...
I'm done here, There are none so blind as those who will not see.
I'm guessing you have not yet written either Hodgdon, St. Marks Powder or both. You want to see a video as proof but won't ask the source? Priceless...
I'm done here, There are none so blind as those who will not see.
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Elkins45
Member
A letter from Hodgdon is a bit more than "third party heresay" to almost everyone. It's not Internet rumor: H110 is 296. And 231 is HP-38. 748 probably has a doppelgänger in a Hodgdon can too. It all comes out of the same factory now.
FLIGHT762
Member
Okay, you made me watch the video you referred to. Chris Hodgdon DID NOT say the two powders (110 / 296) were manufactured a different facilities. The INTERVIEWER said that and said he ASSUMED that. Hodgdon went on to say they keep the powders separate under the two brands (Hodgdon & Winchester) due to "brand loyalty", which does make some sense.
They are the same powders as he said HP 238 / 231 are.
You owe me about 12 minutes of my life back. By the way 760 and 414 are the same also. Go look that one up. I'm not going to prove it to you.
They are the same powders as he said HP 238 / 231 are.
You owe me about 12 minutes of my life back. By the way 760 and 414 are the same also. Go look that one up. I'm not going to prove it to you.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
Just for your records, there are a handful of Hodgdon powder which are identical to Winchester powders. These are the powders I'm sure of, there may be more.
They are:
W231 = HP-38
W296 = H110
W540 = HS-6
W571 = HS-7 (both discontinued)
W760 = H414
In addition, WAP = Silhouette
Why the need to verify something that has been verified over and over??
Perhaps get on the phone and call Hodgdon directly?
https://www.hodgdon.com/contactus.html
If you have a safety problem or concern - DO NOT EMAIL - CALL US DIRECTLY 7:00am to 5:30pm Central Monday-Thursday : 913-362-9455
And here is the MSDS for your reference
https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Fi...rs/All Hodgdon Spherical Powders_02-11-14.pdf
https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/MSDS Fi.../Winchester Smokeless Ball Powders_072811.pdf
General Dynamics (St Marks Powder) will not let me in the gate as they make top secret stuff also.
Here is another CLUE:
Go to Hodgdon online. Pull up the load data for 357 Mag, 44 Mag whatever.
Leave the bullet weight blank, click H110 and W 296. Notice anything on the load data and the velocities?? It is the same.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
Believe what you want.
The Truth is Out There
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Bama Drifter
Member
Thrifty Drifter: Refills his W-231 one pounder from an HP-38 eight pounder.
Enjoy that Winchester look for LESS!
Sent from my HUAWEI G620-A2 using Tapatalk
Enjoy that Winchester look for LESS!
Sent from my HUAWEI G620-A2 using Tapatalk
Elkins45
Member
For years (maybe still) OMC continued making the exact same outboard motors and putting either a Johnson or Evinrude cowel on it before shipping them to their respective dealers.
Brand loyalty is often not based on reason.
7mmb
Member
macgrumpy,
Just use Hodgdon's H110 data when using H110 and their 296 data when using 296 and you will be perfectly fine.
Just use Hodgdon's H110 data when using H110 and their 296 data when using 296 and you will be perfectly fine.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The current data is identical so I'm not sure how to use different data. Add the fact not all sources list both, you would have to use what they list even if it's not the same label on the bottle.
rodregier
Member
I have a signed letter from Winchester (Olin) on their letterhead from decades ago about powder equivalency. (In response to my query on the very topic).
Among others they specify the H110/W296 equivalency.
Of course, that doesn't guarantee that all production lots are going to be exactly equal.
"Start low, work up".
Among others they specify the H110/W296 equivalency.
Of course, that doesn't guarantee that all production lots are going to be exactly equal.
"Start low, work up".
I realize this isnt horribly helpfull but Ive been using a keg of powder i was recently given, that was unopened, from the mid 90s. Charges of the same weight produce slightly higher velocities 50-100fps than my recently purchased keg of H110, this could easily be explained by lot to lot variations tho....these loads were shot in a .458 socom, and visible signs of pressure are the same, or at least such that i cant tell the difference.
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