Half the servicos aventuras primers I have used fail

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mrawesome22-250 said:
I bought a bunch of Ginex primers, then very soon after that I bought a ram prime.

It was the absolute only way to seat them properly.
Click to expand...
Ginex are tough sometimes. I’ve seated other brands of rifle primers for quick work-ups before without cleaning the primer pockets, but Ginex primers require that the primer pockets be absolutely clean and free of debris, and even then they are sometimes tough to seat.
 
None of the primers are above the head face. Some are below. This could be due to the mix of cases. I ordered a Frankfort arsenal priming kit. I want to load some with this priming kit and if I don't see any difference I can send them back. I also want to see if it seats the primer different, and to see if the ones lower than the case head are different case manufacturers. Then I want to go to the range and see if I separate the cases that are flush vs lower and see if there is an issue with only ones set flush.
 
I‘m no where near the expert these guys are, but here’s what I’d do--

1. Jettison all thoughts of the recent past, then start over

2. Prepare cases
Separate cases by headstamp
Clean, clean, clean the primer pockets
Use a go/no go gauge to ensure pockets are okay (per gauge anyway)
Uniform the pockets if you have the tool

3. Seat primers
Seat X number of CCI (or WSP or…) in batch of same headstamps
Seat X number of SA primers in batch of same headstamps as above using the same tool & technique & force, etc. (if you used R-P, use it again)
(or, reverse prior two steps)

4. Compare results visually (take pictures if you want)

5. Shoot em
 
castile said:
None of the primers are above the head face. Some are below. This could be due to the mix of cases.
Click to expand...
You may want to add a bit of scientific measurement to this analysis. Calipers have a depth blade that can be used to measure the depth below the face of the head of the case. Shoot for 3-6 thou below flush, but bottomed out is better.
 
For some of the guys newer to the art..."flush" is a misnomer. It's an easy description in reloading manuals that gives a generally usable end product for most guns, most primers, most of the time. It was coined in a time where precision measuring instruments were somewhat precious, and many reloaders didn't own scales, let alone gauges and dial calipers and such. Most guns had heavy hammers, and most primers were of similar composition and design. Today we have striker fired guns, lightweight DAO revolvers, and various other guns that by design have a lighter strike, due to less inertia or weight reduction in the firing group. Combined with a much wider variety of primer manufacturers. Combine that with some of these primer manufacturers making a single primer for both magnum and standard applications, or selling military over run primers, or other reasons why the primers may be larger or harder than what some of us may be used too. You should never shoot for "flush", but always "below flush", and preferably you should measure it. My personal target is .003 below flush, but there is a variance there dependent on brass and other things. At a bare minimum, butt your dial caliper up to the primer against a flat surface and verify that it's below flush and doesn't just "look" ok.
 
I am also going to load up 20 rounds using the same hand press but other primers. I highly doubt that this issue is the fault of the seating. In over 30 years of reloading I have never had an issue. I have had the odd FTF but if I had 2 in 100 that would be huge. Morel like 2 in 1000. Low enough it was of no matter to me. This was so out of line being 50% or more that it was obviously an issue. The only thing different was the primers themselves. I want a base line then other seating depths from flush to just below flush. I am going to start by loading the rounds with the same powder and bullet seating I had at the last trip to the range. Then I want to do it all the same but change the seating depth. First I want to load up some the same as I did last trip and see how the OCL looks. I set these and usually to check them. Could be it is out of tolerances. I did not check before I took the bullets out. That this happened with two different guns, and two different calibers and the only difference is the primers is to my mind a lot of evidence for causation. Its not proof positive but its also not fitting in to correlation is not causation either. That right there is a lot of proof that it can be the primers.

I usually buy CCI or Winchester ect. I never buy out of country primers. But there was a few years or more when you could not double pay and get primers. So this is when I bought some of these. Could be I just got a batch of thicker cups or some other out of tolerance thing. I also brought some ammo to the range that I loaded but used primers from an older Remington primer box I had a few left. They all fired fine. I only had them for my Ruger, my wife's PPK I had only what I had loaded for that trip to the range. I also took my AR to the range and had loaded the 223 on the same press, and primed with the same Hornady hand priming system. Every one fired fine. I had also loaded up some sub sonic to test a suppressor and those all fired just fine. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong but as it stands now I don't fully buy the seating depth.

I do want to Ferret it out though. I have been shooting for a long time. I have seen things shooters said made a huge difference that did not. Like how much better a 1911a1s accuracy is if you use a full length guide rod. There have been several studies on this and it comes down to NADA. It does not have any accuracy or other outcome. I bought a 1911 Colt series 70 a while back and it had one in it. I took it out and tossed it. I don't like them and if they don't help they are a pain in the rear to take the gun apart and clean. But back in the day you could not convince the believers no matter what. Its just the way things go.

Try asking a group of car guys or Harley guys which oil is best and a fight breaks out.
 
I am glad I didn't buy them when they came up cheaper than American.
I load 9mm for IDPA in mixed brass and I am not going to treat it like target rifle ammo with pocket prep and double seating of primers.
 
I loaded up 40 rounds same as I did before I went to the range last time, in this group I loaded up half with Bullseye [same powder I used at the range when they failed. ] and the other half with Red Dot. So I will be checking the powder to see if there is any thing with that.
 
castile said:
Try asking a group of car guys or Harley guys which oil is best and a fight breaks out.
Click to expand...
No fight, everyone has told you the same thing, they aren’t seated to the bottom of the primer pocket. They are tighter and the same setup that worked with softer/less tight primers isn’t getting them seated deeply enough.
 
Walkalong said:
No fight, everyone has told you the same thing, they aren’t seated to the bottom of the primer pocket. They are tighter and the same setup that worked with softer/less tight primers isn’t getting them seated deeply enough.
Click to expand...
This whole discussion reminds me of the fluff-up about Wolf primers when they were the only thing available.
My fix was/is shims under the primer pin and a lever force I refer to as the "crush setting".
Those shims are still there today...
jmo,
.
 
I determined long ago "flush" and "below flush" don't mean much as far as my handloads are concerned. I seat primers all the way to the bottom of the pocket, and as long as the firing pin reaches the cup enough (which has always been the case), I get 100% firing. I got a ram prime in the late 1980s and when using that tool I have had zero FTF with all primers have tried except 3 or 4 with gun issues (CCI, Remington, Winchester Wolf, SA, and some Europeans mfg, ?? I cant remember where they came from). The biggest "problem" I had was one gun didn't like Winchester primers although other makes worked OK. I remembered "sensitizing" primers (preloading) and when seating added a little more "umph"/pressure to seating with my ram prime, problem went away...
 
mdi said:
"flush" and "below flush" don't mean much as far as my handloads are concerned. I seat primers all the way to the bottom of the pocket,
Click to expand...
The issue becomes, for some folks, how to determine how far in "all the way" is and when they've reached the "bottom".

The only objective way would be to measure the depth of the primer being used, the depth of the primer pocket, and then how far below flush that would put the top of the primer.
 
ballman6711 said:
I seat primers on the press, once seated I "lean on the lever" a bit, and I've never had one fail to go off when struck.

My primers are all seated at or below flush, but I'm pretty sure they are all seated to the bottom of the pocket.

chris
Click to expand...
Me too and I use a straight edge to “gauge” visually how below flush they are.

And regardless of the leaning I’ve never crushed one yet.

Edit: and BTW, I learned both the leaning and straight edge techniques here on THR.
 
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Tilos said:
This whole discussion reminds me of the fluff-up about Wolf primers when they were the only thing available.
My fix was/is shims under the primer pin and a lever force I refer to as the "crush setting".
Those shims are still there today...
jmo,
.
Click to expand...
I use Wolf standard large rifle primers for my self loaders. They seat hard but a Ram Prime seats them properly. Waaaay! different than Rem, Win, Fed, or CCI. Even the “milspec” US primers seat easier. But the Wolf primers are dead reliable and will work no matter how hot, cold, wet, or worn out the brass is.

You just have to adapt.
 
I got the Frankfort priming system today. I set it as high as it goes and it was still not as deep setting as my Hornady hand primer.
 
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