Has the Remington 870 Reputation for reliability been ruined in this decade???

[Runningman]

First off let me say my 3 older Remington 870 have been reliable.

But I got to ask has the Remington 870 reputation for reliability "out of the box" been ruined in this decade???

After reading so many threads in the last 5 or 6 years on my "Remington 870 won't extract". Did a Google search today on (Remington 870 + not extracting) among other searches. Must say was shocked by the shear number of threads I read complaining about newer 870s and extraction issues.

It begs the question.... What all did Remington do to the 870 to ruin its out of the box reliability for so many people? While some try to blame cheap crappy ammo. I myself don't think the problem with ammo is the root cause. Appears to be more of a production process issue to me.

I think more likely after reading so many posts on it. The poor quality chamber surface finish and or Remington's non reflective finish sticking in the chamber during production is one of the biggest issues. One gunsmith along claimed to have fixed over 50 Remington 870s by polishing the chamber.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I would not say it is purely reliability but rather the degradation of the form of an American firearm and the people that choose cost over quality.

Reliability being on the fritz is just a logical side effect of the above.

 

[oletymer]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there. Instead they buy the cheapest thing. Mossbergs, Express, cheap Chinese and Turkish guns dominate the postings.

 

[hags]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there. Instead they buy the cheapest thing. Mossbergs, Express, cheap Chinese and Turkish guns dominate the postings.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that but..........

I have a new Express model that's become my personal pump. I have had zero issues with it after about 1500 rounds. It's definitely a keeper.

I don't see an issue with reliability with the 870s, or Mossbergs for that matter. Sure you get bad parts but that can happen on a $2000 custom 1911.
I've seen bad examples of all kinds of firearms. You see the same thing in other industries, auto, appliances, etc....That's the nature of the beast.

I sell tons of Remington 870s and 870Ps I've not seen a pattern of decreasing quality at all.

In my experience most firearms related "issues" are related to operator error.

 

[fuelie777]

I am one of those that have a Rem 870 from earlier. It has yet to not extract or work, period.

I am an RO at the local range. I witnessed a new remington 870 being function tested. It had definite extraction problems. It was the express verision with the parkerized finish.

I too have recently purchased a Rem 870 with a parkeized finish. It had all of the features I wanted and needed. After what I witnessed yesterday, I went to fucntion test it. Cleaned it (I though very well), went to fucntion test it, extracting issues after firing. My only recource is to contact Remington, to send it back, or polish the firing chamber myself (or take it to a smith). This shotgun should not ever have extraction issues. If cheap ammo is the culprit, then why is my older wingmaster function flawlessly on cheap ammo.

After writing this, I do plan to contact Remington and ask them what to do. If they do not have the feed back, then how are they to correct the issue. (I know it should not happen).

Any suggestions?

 

[ArmedBear]

I would not say it is purely reliability but rather the degradation of the form of an American firearm and the people that choose cost over quality.

That's the origin of the 870 itself. The Wingmaster is still a bunch of stamped steel and piano wire that replaced the real "ball-bearing pumps" that preceded it in Remington's lineup, and proceeded to kill the machined Model 12 in the marketplace with its better price. People were attracted to damn-near-as-good, for half the price.

WRT the Express, mine has had zero trouble except with one particular kind of ammo, so I just don't care. It's crap ammo.

The whole point of a pump gun in 2009 is that it's semi-disposable, a reliable, relatively cheap workhorse. Duck boats, prison armories, guard shacks, patrol cars -- none of these are places you'd expect to find a Purdey.

The market for a really nice pump exists, but it's limited, since the autoloader has been perfected and the O/U isn't much more expensive than a pump with the same fit and finish (see Ithaca's recent offerings).

So, many people aren't willing to pay for a top-quality, finely finished pump gun, and Remington isn't exactly a company that goes for the high end of the market, despite some of their excessive MSRPs for what they're selling.

The 870 is still a reliable gun. If you have to polish the chamber to get it to extract the worst of the worst ammo, well, that's a small price to pay, given how cheap the Express has remained ($279 at Cabela's down the road from me this weekend).

 

[alemonkey]

I have an Express that I bought maybe 15 years or so ago. I've never had a single problem with it, but maybe the Express models of today are less reliable. Don't know.

 

[RandKL]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there.

You got that kind of backwards there, OT. The problems don't occur because people are buying the guns....they happen because Remington is *making* the guns that way. It doesn't matter how much gold you toss at crap, it's still going to be crap. That 870 Express *used to be* the good old basic 870 that everyone will tell you was/is a fine shotgun. Remington downgraded it, not the customers.

To Fuelie: it's not "parkerized". "Parkerized" is a type of anti-rust phosphate finish. The Express line is simply bead-blasted darkened bare metal that's intended to look decent but gives practically zero protection against rust. It's only redeeming factor is that it holds oil well. Bead blasting bare metal is literally the cheapest "non-finish" you can do other than leaving the gun in the white.

richard

 

[throdgrain]

I had a problem with my 1976 Wingmaster ejecting, but only after I fitted a new barrel. Go figure

 

[ArmedBear]

The problems don't occur because people are buying the guns....they happen because Remington is *making* the guns that way.

Econ 101: F

The moment people quit buying the guns that way is the moment Remington would stop making them that way.

Remington makes many 870 variants. Customers have the ability to choose among them, and many choose the Express.

Why? Once you pass the $650-700 mark, most people aren't looking at pump guns, for one thing. This isn't 1950 any more.

Furthermore, it seems that when someone becomes a "gun snob" the Remingtons are the first things to get sold off. The text in their catalogs notwithstanding, Remington is not a high-end gunmaker.

 

[earlthegoat2]

It may have a little to do with what I call: The Taurus Approach (yes based upon Taurus Manufacturing International)

Make a product that is "good enough" cutting every corner imaginable to keep price down. Dont do any sort of QA. Accept that there will be failures and problems. Then offer a lifetime warranty. Since the product is "good enough" and the manufacturing methods are "good enough" then the majority will be trouble free. Those that have problems are warrantied and thus get sent back at the manufacturers expense. This expense however is acceptable and planned for. The expense of all the returns is nowhere near the expense that would have been if proper manufacturing methods and QA were up to snuff in the first place.

Econ 101:

A++


On another note, as much as I have used Remington 870s in the past I find them to be way too Ho-Hum. You see too many at gun shows and in pawn shops. (which everyone knows arent the best places to find guns but everyone seems to go there anyway) If the market wasnt so saturated with this "cut every corner imaginable to keep price down" guns then maybe the shows and shops would be worthwhile to go to. I dont like to be one of those guys that say that there is nothing new that is good but times have changed and the manufacturers had to change with the times and what you see is the result.

 

[MAX100]

The barrel chamber problems is a very minor issue and very easy for Remington to correct. They know about it but choose to do nothing about it because of cost.

It sucks but this how they choose to do business.

I personally would still choose an 870 over a 500. This is why Remington gets away with it. Blame yourselves.


GC

 

[Shear_stress]

I think the rise in complaints over the past decade has more to do with the rise of the internet--where every minor incident gets broadcast for the universe to see--than with a decline in reliability.

I think there is actually a net benefit to such stuff. Helps keep the manufacturers honest.

 

[dak0ta]

Well I think this is the trend for why the 870 still continues to sell.

New shooters interested in buying the gun already know about the extraction issues, then they post a 870 vs. 500 thread and everybody says 870 is better. New shooters want to see consensus and everybody says the 870 is better most of the time, hence they overlook the extraction issues and take the plunge to buy one. Next time around, a new shooter asks which gun is better, and people want to justify their purchase, so for better or for worse they say that the gun they bought i.e. 870 or 500 is better.

Just a thought...

 

[ArmedBear]

I have done as well at American Trap with a 28" 12 Gauge 870 Express as with any gun.

The 870 balances and swings well. Like earlthegoat2, I don't get excited about the things, but they work.

I think the rise in complaints over the past decade has more to do with the rise of the internet--where every minor incident gets broadcast for the universe to see--than with a decline in reliability.

Quite possibly true. In the past, you'd ask some buddies who'd been around scatterguns for a while, and one of them would either fix your problem or show you how.

I prefer the modern version, where someone who doesn't have the resources to become a full-time "range bum" can still learn. Still, one has to be careful not to turn what was once "lore" into too harsh a judgment of a gun.

 

[Runningman]

After writing this, I do plan to contact Remington and ask them what to do. If they do not have the feed back, then how are they to correct the issue. (I know it should not happen).

I agree it is a good idea to contact Remington on the issue. Let them fix the issue at their expense.

Remington may not even know how wide spread the problem is since most people are fixing it by them self or taking it to the local gunsmith from what I can see.

I'm a machinist by trade and understand the cost of rework in a production environment. Its is actually very expensive to rework parts. Its not just the labor involved with actually fixing the problem. The shipping, paperwork, processing and in many cases engineering gets involved. Costs start escalating in a hurry. Eventually someone will have a cow when their charts and graphs don't look so hot in a meeting.

 

[oneounceload]

Remington has to compete - as long as folks value PRICE OVER QUALITY, Remington has little choice in trying to compete with the crap from China and Turkey but to make at least one model in the same price point range. They only way for them to do that using American Labor is to cut as many steps from the mfg. process as possible. Maybe they should take a lesson from Mossberg and start having parts made in Mexico...

If you look at the prices for quality made guns, some as old as 50 years or more, they are worth more than a new one of the same model

There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.
Henry Ford

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

"To Fuelie: it's not "parkerized". "Parkerized" is a type of anti-rust phosphate finish. The Express line is simply bead-blasted darkened bare metal that's intended to look decent but gives practically zero protection against rust. It's only redeeming factor is that it holds oil well. Bead blasting bare metal is literally the cheapest "non-finish" you can do other than leaving the gun in the white."

evidently it's some sort of black oxide finish on abrasive blasted surface. fairly vulnerable to rust.

 

[Virginian]

Has the Remington 870 Reputation for reliability been ruined in this decade???

No, not in my opinion. All 870s are not even close to equal. If one buys an absolute cheap-est shotgun, expects zero problems with any kind of ammo, and doesn't know how to fix a problem if one crops up; I don't count their vote. If you want to that's fine with me.
Apparently 99.999% of buyers do not read Internet forums before they buy. I am sure if the marketing model changes, Remington will change their practices, but as of right now I don't see anything to make them change anything.

 

[V45C]

The barrel chamber problems is a very minor issue and very easy for Remington to correct. They know about it but choose to do nothing about it because of cost. GC

+100 , remingtons were always the biggest cashcow in my friends shop , rarely did a mossberg come back for work , and when it did it was almost always the safety coming loose and the BB jamming things up..
their model 1100's , holy crap what a joke they've become , my original LH deluxe needed cleaning at the end of the trap and hunting season...
that was all...
now they come back thru his door about every 2 weeks , esp when you use remington ammo ...
870's are now the RG-25 of shotguns...

 

[MAKster]

Remington sells the Wingmaster that has a high gloss blued finish and fancy walnut stock but no one buys it because it costs $650. People who are willing to spend that much or more on a shotgun are buying over-unders not pumps. Pumps are not prestige items but utilitarian guns now. Remington probably sells 40 Expresses for every one Wingmaster. Either sell a product for the price people are will to pay or go out of business.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I wouldnt be caught buying a 650 dollar O/U. A semi auto though....

 

[Runningman]

Either sell a product for the price people are will to pay or go out of business.

Many years ago I worked in a decent size machine shop. When you walked into the doorway to go to work. There was a very large sign that hung from the celling. You could not help but notice it every morning when you walked the doorway. It stated in bold red letters. Make it Right, Make it on time, Make a profit, BUT FIRST MAKE IT RIGHT. Nobody wants to pay hundreds of dollars or more for a part or product that does not work correctly in my experience. If you do it enough times you lose your reputation. Than your customers will look elsewhere.

Look at todays auto industry. 15 -30 years ago I knew many people that would not think about buying a imported car or pickup. Now most of them are driving imports these days. GM and Chrysler have filed for bankruptcy and Ford is mortgaged to the limit.

 

[AcceptableUserName]

a lot of firearms "aren't made like they used ta be." Just the nature of the beast. There's ways around it, though. With the right know how one can mold the firearm to perform as they wish through upgrades and techniques and such. One of my favorite things to do is take someone's old beat-up Mossberg 500 and give it new life...or take a particular gun off the shelf and "supe it up", be it polishing a feed ramp or deburring a bolt, just takes some learning.

 

[handle02]

I got my 870 in about 01 or 02 give or take year,either way within the past decade.I have to say my 870 has performed flawlessly!I might have got lucky and got a good ol 870 before they went to crap.I have hunting buddies that have bought 870's within the past couple of years and everyone of them have had problems with their guns.The only problem I have had with gun is that s**t finish (it was a rust magnet).That little problem is taken care of now since I've had it ceramic coated. Just a few things I've ran into with the 870's