Having a hell of a time deciding on new AR upper

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

JohnCrighton

Member
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
54
OK, here are my requirements - tell me if what I'm asking is unattainable, or if you have other ideas other than what I'm considering:

1 - Want it to be effective against 2 and 4 legged game of 200lbs+ at over 500 yards. Meaning, when it hits 500, 600, 800 yards I want it to still be powerful enough to wound/kill effectively

2 - Not too damn expensive to reload - something along the lines of what it costs to reload .30-06 or less - this would necessitate something not too exotic

3 - Accurate to the ranges mentioned (doesn't have to win competitions, but I'd like to be able to hit these targets at long ranges consistently)


I have so far been looking at the 6.5 Grendel. Would this do the trick for me, or are there other calibers that I can consider?

Thanks!
 
ARs can shoot out to 500 or further, but they don't exactly carry the sort of zing to reliably drop what you want in 1...

Most AR cartridges aren't terribly expensive to reload, being fairly small in comparison to something like .30-06.

Accuracy, take what you want. People shoot competitions with .223 all the time out to 1000 yards. But long range shooting is one thing when it's paper involved, and quite another when you're trying to drop 200 lb animals at 800 yards.

An AR-10 may be more up your alley, but even heavy duty magnums aren't the most reliable killers at the ranges you describe... very little is.

6.5 Grendel is a cool cartridge, but you sure won't be dropping deer at 800 yards with it! Or at least, you shouldn't be trying to.
 
In the AR15 platform, either the 6.5 Grendel or the 6.8SPC are about the only thing close to your desires, with the clear nod going to the 6.5 Grendel based upon its performance at longer distances. Even then, the retained energy will be fairly low and a clean knock-down far from assured.

But I have to ask - have you ever actually *taken* a 500+ yard shot at game? It's not nearly as trivial as it seems from behind the keyboard, and not nearly as common as reading the Internet might lead you to believe...
 
I agree with rbernie. Look at the 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC. On paper, the 6.5 is better for accuracy and distance while the 6.8 hits a bit harder. If you are shooting a lot more paper than game, I'd go with the 6.5.
 
Try hitting a moving target at 500 yards. Sniper fantasies aside, your chances of needing (and making) shots like that are slim to none. If you do consistently need extreme ranges like that, you shouldn't be looking at an AR.
 
Hmm - you know, the more I'm thinking about this the more I'm wondering:

I've got $250 invested right now in my lower. I have an AR in 5.56 with its own lower, and one in 9mm with its own lower.

If I get a Grendel upper I'm looking at about $800-$1000 depending on if I get it new or used, etc.

Dies are a bit more than .308 dies, plus the brass is pretty pricey compared to .308 brass - to the tune of $400 for 1000 brass vs. less than $175 for 1000 once-fired .308 brass.

I'm wondering if honestly I might be better off shelving the "New AR upper" idea and just getting a DPMS .308 rifle. Those are under $1000, less if I can get a nice used one.

Ballistics are pretty similar, .308 ammo is available everywhere, reloading is a LOT cheaper, lots of different bullet options, etc. I guess the only downside is the recoil, but I can handle that.

Honestly, would I be missing anything by going .308 DPMS vs. getting the Grendel?


And yes, I've shot game at 500 yards - used a .30-06 bolt gun - but want to get a nice semi-auto capable of the same.
 
.308 isn't going to be making any 800 yard game shots, at least not ethically.

Pretty sure 6.5 Grendel brass can be formed from 7.62X39, as well.
 
The 6.5 Grendel will recoil less. Other than that, the 308 will (given appropriate bullets) retain better energy downrange since they start at a much higher velocity.
 
Thanks for all the replies. Now I just have to decide which route to go. Decisions, decisions - ah well, makes life interesting.
 
.308 isn't going to be making any 800 yard game shots, at least not ethically.
Click to expand...

Oh yes it can...but 800 yards is the max if you're playing the ethics card.

A 165 grain bullet with a .505 BC (Barnes XBT) is still going almost 1500 fps and carrying a little over 800 ft.lbs. of energy at 800 yards...thats plenty of OOOMPH with a bullet that will penetrate (deer size game...not moose, elk, or bear)....as long as the shooter can do their part and place the shot correctly.

Its not EASY to shoot accurately at that distance...but its certainly not as hard as many on these forums make it out to be. It just takes practice.

My personal opinion...600 yards is enough...
Until you get VERY familiar with your gun and your load...the rules change a bit past 600 yards. (dropping like a rock...but still accurate)

EDITED TO ADD: the above figures are for a 20 inch barrel...muzzle velocity is 2650 fps.
 
Oh yes it can
Click to expand...

A .22 can travel that far and in theory kill something at that range. Doesn't mean you should try it.

800 yards is the max if you're playing the ethics card.
Click to expand...

Much less is the max if you're playing the ethics card with a .308.

800 ft.lbs.
Click to expand...

A .223 with a 69 gr bullet carries a little over 1.3k ft-lbs of energy. .223 is banned in many states for being too weak for deer hunting, and most people agree that it is too weak for killing deer for anything outside of the closest ranges.

While energy figures never tell the whole story, it is never an excuse for putting an animal through such undue misery, especially when you're shooting a cartridge that really is too small for that range.

Can a good shooter make the shot? Certainly. But I know people who claim to have killed elk with rimfires, and I certainly don't consider that ethical at any range.

Unless you're starving and have no other way to get food, there really is no excuse for that sort of shot- that's just too risky and flatly disrespectful to the animal.
 
6.5 grendel is indeed the best cartridge for your requirements. However, other contenders you should not rule out are the Olympic Arms uppers in .243 WSSM and .25 WSSM, particularly the .25 WSSM. They also meet your criteria, albeit a tad more expensive to reload, and with a smaller mag capacity, and *possibly* less gun reliability. 6.8 SPC would be a decent choice as well - I'd put it in 4th place for your specific requirements.
 
CBS220,

Energy is a joke...I should have said that in my first post...

Momentum is what cartridges should be judged by...compare the 308 and 223 there. (An example...how many buffalo were killed at long range (over 1000 yards) with a 45-70, 45-90, 45-110-550 and the like, which don't have much energy past 300 yards either...the answer...nearly all of them)

223 is legal in many states and it will kill deer effectively if used properly.

And I have NEVER caused any animal that I have shot any undue misery...none of them knew what hit them.

Now...lastly the only way the max is much less than 800 yards, is if you play the "fair chase" card...I will agree that sniping deer is not fair to the deer...they don't have a chance with a good shooter.
 
Highorder...its the truth.

And I think there will be a few that will agree with me on that. I'll let them explain in detail ( I have to go to work)...but in a nutshell momentum = penetration.
 
Energy is a joke...I should have said that in my first post...

Momentum is what cartridges should be judged by...
Click to expand...

And how do you measure momentum as opposed to energy?
 
A .308 AR sounds best for you. The recoil is negligable, not much different than the 5.56 due to the buffer system. Ammo will be cheaper and more plentiful than the 6.5 or 6.8.

If you're looking for cheap ammo, at the expense of losing some distance, consider the 7.62X39mm AR platform.

I have a .223 AR, a .308 AR, and am starting to collect the parts to start a X39 AR platform build.
 
Wow, all this talk about extreme long distance shooting just reminds me of the fundamentals of the "stalk". You may be a good marksman, but your a poor hunter if you need that kind of range. I have never needed anything bigger than a .243 for deer and I have also never taken a shot past around 250 yards ( that includes coyotes too).
 
You could check out the wssm lines. Get one in 7 mm wssm and it would fit an AR 15 lower.
 
Talking about whether a 308 or 6.5 grendel is better for killing deer at 600 or 800 yards pushes the needle on the stupid meter deep into the red. :rolleyes:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
Topic Dead
2 3 4 5
Replies
118
Views
2K
Spats McGee
Spats McGee
E
  • Locked
Downsides to have a 11.5" AR Upper in a SHTF scenario?
2
Replies
41
Views
40K
M2 Carbine
M
T
  • Locked
What caliber should I choose for my next AR-15 upper?
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Owen Sparks
O
G
  • Locked
What should my next AR upper be?
Replies
11
Views
765
GMHAYESUSN
G
DAdams
  • Locked
6.5 Grendel Upper Shopping
Replies
8
Views
475
DAdams
DAdams
Back
Top