Topic Dead

[MechaDragon]

Thread has devolved into nothing but trolling and childish behavior. Feel free to select another thread.

A lot of people think 300BLK is the way to go if you want to build a general-purpose SBR thats kinda good at everything and yet a master of nothing. But they are completely wrong.

The real answer: is 6.5 Grendel. And Ill explain why.

6.5 Grendel is way more versatile than 300 BLK. The one thing BLK has over Grendel is the fact that subsonic rounds are easily and readily available and its a bit more quiet. This is true, but subsonic BLK is useless at anything other than close-range defense.

Grendel outperforms BLK at ANY other scenario. This is because 6.5 Grendel is more efficient with a slightly smaller projectile and longer casing with more gun powder behind it.

As a result, Grendel has more muzzle energy from the same barrel length and the projectile is so much more aerodynamic (Higher BC) that it carries its energy much further down range as well.

Because of this, its more efficient than 300BLK with shorter barrels. While you can get 2400 FPS from a 110gr BLK, it requires a 16" barrel to do so. Meanwhile, with Grendel you get the same velocity with a 115gr projectile from a 12" barrel.

6.5 Grendel is also designed to burn pretty much all of its powder in the first 11-12" of barrel and so while not quite as fast-burning as 300BLK, you get a FAR MORE CAPABLE weapon system in a package the same size as a lot of 300BLK builds. Its not like a 12.5" rifle is large, its still VERY compact.

Grendel is so much more efficient than 300BLK that when firing 110gr of each cartridge from both calibers with 16" barrels, Grendel has DOUBLE the energy remaining at 300 yards from the shooter.

According to a ballistic chart looking into the matter - Grendel 115gr has muzzle velocity of 2,590 FPS and an energy of 1,713 ft-lbs and still has 995 ft-lbs after 300 yards with a drop of 9.8", then has 670 ft-lbs left at 500 yards with a drop of 58.1".

300BLK doesn't even come CLOSE. 110gr fired from the same barrel length has a muzzle velocity of 2,350 FPS and an energy of 1,349 ft-lbs. At 300 yards the BLK has dropped to 625 ft-lbs and has dropped by 13.8". At 500 yards the round is basically useless at 369 ft-lb remaining and having dropped a full 86.5".

So with 6.5 Grendel, you can build a backpack gun/SBR with a 10-12" barrel and its actually fully EFFECTIVE at taking medium sized game with an ethical kill out to 250 yards. 300BLK with the same barrel length has a absolute maximum humane kill range of 150 yards with the correct ammunition.

So there you have it. 300 BLK is better at suppression but there are subsonic 6.5 Grendel loads available, its just 300BLK is ever so slightly better at it. But then 300BLK gets owned at literally every other scenario.

I understand that 300BLK is popular for the suppression but you can suppress a 9mm PCC/Sub-Gun as well and have a MUCH lower chance of over-penetrarion.

So, if you really want the "One Rifle That Does it All" or gets as close as possible while also being compact - your only real choice is 6.5 Grendel. 300BLK supersonics just don't have the range when fired from a short barrel and they drop too quickly as well. Meanwhile, I bet anyone could hit steel at 500 yards with a 6.5 Grendel SBR after some practice. After all, we have already seen people reach out to 700 yards with supersonic 300BLK from a 9" barrel, theres just so much drop he was literally off the scope mil markings and had to adjust the scope turrets.

My ONLY gripe with 6.5 Grendel is the price of ammunition. You won't find even cheap stuff under 80 cents per round. Thats basically robbery considering that like 300BLK, the round was also introduced as a possible replacement for 9mm SMGs in the military as an effective CQB cartridge that still functions in the AR Platform. If the inventor of 6.5 Grendel hadn't been dumb enough to patent the design at first, the military may very well have adopted it over 300BLK considering it can also be suppressed quite well with subsonic rounds available.

 

[westernrover]

Isn't it based off the PPC cartridge family (7.62x39mm) ?

I can tell you that before the thing that drove prices up a few years ago, factory-loaded Grendel was about 35 cents per round in brass cases. Steel-cased was twenty-something cents, and components could be had to reload on-hand brass for about 22 cents. New Starline brass could be had for 17 cents, primers for 3, and the bullets are a very common 6.5mm so those were cheap. I was getting Speer TNT for 17 cents -- accurate open-tips. I used Barnes TTSX and TAC-X for mule deer and they performed flawlessly.

I think Grendel is widely recognized as one of the best if not the best AR intermediate cartridge for hunting medium-size game (deer, antelope, boar). On the other hand, hunting with an AR is a minority subculture compared to the tactical scene. 5.56x45 is easily the most popular and really except for subsonics, there's not a lot of reason for anything else. Comparing Grendel to 300 BLK... I don't know. I think a fairer comparison would be comparing Grendel to 5.56x45 or 300 HMR.

Another one not to overlook is 6 ARC which is basically 6mm Grendel, neither of which are much different than 6mm PPC or 6mm AR. The practical difference is what one will find various types of rifles chambered in. It's easier to find tactical and hunting MSR's in ARC and easier to find benchrest rifles in PPC, but otherwise the ballistics are pretty comparable.

To me, the baffling thing is that there aren't more AK's in Grendel. I mean, it's basically an AK round necked down to 6.5mm and blown out so there's no taper. It's not the thing to improve the AK for what the AK is good at, but it could conceivably expand the AK's repertoire to things one doesn't presently imagine. Grendel prices as of late are the obvious reason not many would want an AK in 6.5mm, but when it was cheaper, the recipe made some sense.

Grendel, while it had any chance of taking more hold than it has, saw competition from 6.8 SPC. That cartridge had a lot going for it, but failed to catch on and must be substantially less popular than Grendel or ARC now, but I think it did prevent Grendel from attaining a greater market share while it was uncertain which one was better.

Ruger made Mini-14's in 5.56x45, and then they made the Mini-30 in 7.62x39. If they could make a Mini-30, it must have been a simple thing to make a Mini-6.5 in Grendel, but they made a Mini in 6.8 SPC instead. That's since been discontinued, and I can only see it as having been a miscalculation. Had they chambered it for the Grendel, they could have subsequently chambered a Mini-6 in ARC, and then a Mini-22 in ARC. That would have sold a lot more guns than the 6.8.

 

[MechaDragon]

@westernrover

I think its perfectly fair to compare 300BLK to 6.5 Grendel. They are both modified 5.56x45mm rounds, they are both intermediate rifle cartridges, and they are both pretty efficient and effective out of short-barred weapons.

They are basically the same thing except that one is made specifically for suppressed fire.

But I would like an actually effective SBR with affordable ammunition and Im sure many people feel the same way.

 

[westernrover]

Are you sure the Grendel is a modified 5.56x45 case? The Grendel takes a different bolt face than the 5.56 because the case diameter is quite a bit larger. So the BCG is different. Unlike 300 BLK, the Grendel won't fit in 5.56 magazines. It takes different magazines and because the case diameter is larger, it fits 25 rounds into magazines the same length as 30 round 5.56 and 300 magazines.

There is a cartridge based on a 5.56x45 case being necked-up to 6mm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6×45mm
There is also a cartridge resulting from a 5.56x45 case being necked up to 6.5mm, but it's called 6.5 TCU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson/Center_Ugalde

The only cartridges that will be affordable or even attainable in periods of high demand has been shown to be those cartridges that are widely adopted by police and military consumers of large quantities. In times past, that was 9x19mm, 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, and 7.62x51mm (comparatively). US legislators cut-off the sources of cheap 7.62x39, so that leaves the others and moreover it has further cemented only those others as being available at low cost -- because lack of supply is going to destroy demand while a abundant supply of low-cost ammo will increase demand (why would consumers flock to 25 Sharps? It doesn't make sense). So Armscor, PPU, Lake City, and a half-dozen other large scale ammo plants crank out what consumers demand.

The M4 is a 14" SBR and chambered in 5.56x45. It's an actually effective SBR and has plenty of evidence for that. There are other cartridge designs including the 300 BLK and HMR or 458 SOCOM that might work better suppressed or in a 7-inch barrel, but those are niche demands. Outside police and military, SBR's are a niche market due to NFA regulations, but within military and police, the 5.56x45 is still the most popular cartridge for SBR's. I don't see how it's practical to expect a 2nd or 3rd tier cartridge in a niche market to be as affordable as the 1st tier choice that is also the most popular in the vastly larger non-NFA rifle market.

 

[Legionnaire]

Other than noting that the Grendel case is based on the .220 Russian (5.6×39mm) / 7.62x39 rather than the 5.56, I agree with the OP's assessment. I'm a recent convert to the 6.5 Grendel and think the cartridge is fantastic. It should be more popular, in bolt actions as well as ARs. But the cost of supporting the few cartridges based on the Grendel's .455 case head is high compared to the many offered with either the .384 or .470 "standards." Who besides CZ, Howa, and Ruger offer factory bolt actions with .455 bolt faces?

 

[jmorris]

I think its perfectly fair to compare 300BLK to 6.5 Grendel. They are both modified 5.56x45mm rounds,

I don't think so but is should be more popular. The 300 died several times before it changed to "blackout" and had a quite large marketing push, that changed its popularity. Being able to convert .223 brass also probably didn't hurt.

Can't say the same about the 6.5 g.

 

[MechaDragon]

@westernrover Perhaps I worded that wrong, its not that 6.5 Grendel is just a modified 556.

6.5 Grendel was designed for the same reason 300BLK was. When the military asked for a round that performs better than 556 while still functioning in the AR Platform as an alternative CQB weapon over 9mm SMGs - one person cane up with 300BLK, and another came up with 6.5 Grendel.

300BLK is the better suppressor host of course, those SubSonic rounds were specifically made for the task, and that is why the military adopted it. However, as a CQB weapon with the most effectiveness, 6.5 Grendel wipes the floor with 300BLK. So it makes you wonder why the military didn't pick up 6.5 Grendel in some sort of capacity - especially since 6.5 Grendel Subsonics DO exist.

Also it makes you wonder why 300BLK is so popular for civilian SBR builds. Yes, as a suppressed 5" home defense weapon with subsonic rounds such as the Sig Rattler, it makes perfect sense. But most 300BLK builders or buyers usually go for a 9-10" barrel so they can also throw supersonic rounds into the weapon and fire out to longer distances.

This just doesn't make any sense. With Home Defense, you could have that 9mm PCC/Sub-Gun that does the same job as the 300BLK but doesn't have a massive 220gr projectile that is likely to over-penetrate, and as a Multi-Role Backpackable Rifle in a compact package, 6.5 Grendel just does better, a LOT better. On top of this, there are actually subsonic rounds available for 6.5 Grendel, they just aren't very common.

So because Grendel can be as versitile as 300BLK but outperforms 300BLK at everything except suppression with subsonic rounds (but Grendel can still do it okay) - Grendel SHOULD in theory me more popular for civilian owners.

Yes, military-chosen cartridges being popular makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is how a cartridge gets so popular with civilians when its uses in the civilian world are extremely restrictive and there is a similar round that performs so much better at so many more tasks.

 

[Mauser lover]

They are both modified 5.56x45mm rounds

You’re going to need a footnote for that one.

Otherwise, I’m mostly with you. .300 feeds and stacks in AR mags more efficiently. Subsonic .300 is only better ballistically than .45 ACP by the slimmest of margins for close range defensive use.

 

[MechaDragon]

I don't think so but is should be more popular. The 300 died several times before it changed to "blackout" and had a quite large marketing push, that changed its popularity. Being able to convert .223 brass also probably didn't hurt.

Can't say the same about the 6.5 g.

Ya thats probably it. 300BLK is easier to produce. To be honest, I was surprised when the .300 Whisper name didn't catch on. Its just so cool sounding, but I guess Blackout has about the same cool factor.

@jmorris @Legionnaire
Ya sorry I worded that wrong. 6.5G was made for the same reason as 300BLK, not based off the same cartridge. They were both candidates to replace 9mm SMGs as an affective CQB in the military while still functioning in the AR platform, although 6.5 Grendel requires more platform modifications thanks to its larger casing.

See previous replay for further explanation.

 

[jmorris]

6.5 Grendel was designed the same way 300BLK was. When the military asked for a round that performs better than 556 while still functioning in the AR Platform, one person cane up with 300BLK, and another came up with 6.5 Grendel.

The 300 blk was created about the same way I came up with the term "I have a dream..." just a copy of someone else's work.

Look up the 300 fireball, .300-221 and 300 Whisper, all the same animal as the 300blk just less marketing push behind them and decades before.

 

[MechaDragon]

The 300 blk was created about the same way I came up with the term "I have a dream..." just a copy of someone else's work.

Look up the 300 fireball, .300-221 and 300 Whisper, all the same animal as the 300blk just less marketing push behind them and decades before.

I know of both 300 FireBall and 300 Whisper, but I didn't know there was a third naming of .300-221. Well no surprise that name never caught on, its just numbers.

 

[BreechFace]

300 BLK was intended to replace the 9mm/45ACP MP5 platform. And without a doubt I would take a 300 BLK shooting subs over an MP5, if I were kicking in doors or doing hostage rescue, etc that the MP5 was being used for. The ability of switching from subsonic to supers with a magazine change was a great advantage for those in the situations. Inside buildings the subs with quiet effectiveness and multiple hits on targets with good accuracy is the name of the game, but what happens when one exits the building to clear another and distances go from 15 feet to 50-100 yards.

To me it comes down to whether one likes to hunt with an AR. I have and will in the future hunt with my AR's; but I prefer to hunt with a bolt action. And when that is the case, why settle on a "just good enough" to fit in an AR when I can get "enough to more than enough" with a bolt action.

As far as military use, the 6.8 SPC is a much better fit in regards to case design for reliabilty in feeding, extracting, etc.

 

[jmr40]

If I were inclined to use an AR15 in any other cartridge the 6.5 Grendel makes the most sense to me. Yes, it is better than 223. But every time I look at the performance of heavier 75 gr 223 loads I just don't see enough difference to justify the expense.

I'd much rather just go to the AR10 platform and use 6.5CM or 308 if I wanted more than 223 offered. The new Ruger is interesting.

 

[westernrover]

...

So because Grendel can be as versitile as 300BLK but outperforms 300BLK at everything except suppression with subsonic rounds (but Grendel can still do it okay) - Grendel SHOULD in theory me more popular for civilian owners.

Yes, military-chosen cartridges being popular makes sense, but what doesn't make sense is how a cartridge gets so popular with civilians when its uses in the civilian world are extremely restrictive and there is a similar round that performs so much better at so many more tasks.

But why 6.5 Grendel? Why not 6 ARC? Why not 6.8 SPC? I think a lot of people asked those questions and the prevailing answer is still 5.56x45 with heavier bullets. Suppressors work great with supersonic loads, even with the 277 Fury. No, the result is not hearing-safe, but they still serve a purpose, and hearing protection is still going to be necessary if anyone else is shooting even handguns, other rifles, mortars, grenades, artillery. When those Israelis killed the three militants in the hospital in the West Bank a couple weeks ago, they were reported to have used suppressors, the use of which with subsonics would have made sense, but the surveillance video clearly shows not all their rifles were suppressed. And what are they using? Galil? Tavor? (I didn't see any bullpups). Probably not subsonics, and almost certainly not 300 BLK.

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid

CCTV captures undercover forces disguised as medics and nurses in the hospital with weapons raised.

www.bbc.com

 

[Double Naught Spy]

But why 6.5 Grendel? Why not 6 ARC? Why not 6.8 SPC? I think a lot of people asked those questions and the prevailing answer is still 5.56x45 with heavier bullets. Suppressors work great with supersonic loads, even with the 277 Fury.

I am answering you answering Mechadragon, but popularity isn't always about practical value or benefits. I say this as an owner of 6 (7 if you include the one in parts) 6.5 Grendels who has hunted with them for 11 years. I have probably killed a several dozens of coyotes, beaver, and other vermin along with 1500+ hogs so I definitely drank the Kool-aid, but I did not swallow, much.

The 6.5 Grendel is a very capable round if you consider it in the couched parameters that it is one of the best cartridges to fit in a standard AR magazine. Once you remove the magazine fitment aspect, you find yourself with an unnecessarily anemic, "intermediate," cartridge. I don't have a bolt gun in 6.5 Grendel because I can find a lot better cartridges for a bolt gun than 6.5 Grendel.

Now there was a huge ongoing ego battle between 6.8 spc II guys and 6.5 Grendel guys, back 10 years ago. The arguments were often hotly debated, but the reality is that both sides cherry picked what aspects that they liked and proclaimed them to be the aspects that are important. For a while, 6.8 was definitely much more popular than the 6.5 Grendel. Now, I would say that has switched. Why?...as you say.

6 arc shoots flatter
6.8 spc makes bigger holes and does well with shorter barrels better (Std. velocity based on 16" barrel, not 24" as in Grendel).
.300 blk suppresses better and makes bigger holes, but has a worse performance reputation that isn't justified, but keeps it down
.277 Fury, well now you are into the x51 size and dealing with a different beast.

As for suppressing well, nothing supersonic suppresses very well in cartridges of this size. You can suppress down to the sonic crack, but that crack is still going to come out at slightly above hearing safe levels of the low to mid 130s db range.

All cartridges are a compromise between other cartridges. We can continue to introduce new ones (as Grendel once was) but does it really do anything significantly better than similar caliber cartridges that are subject to the AR15 mag fit issue? Not really. Some would consider Grendel to be King within those confines, but the confines are arbitrary and even then, you have to cherry pick the traits you like to say it is better. If you want to see a truly different level of performance, you need to move to a truly different level of cartridge instead of comparing it against something very similar with largely overlapping performance characteristics.

In terms of popularity, I will be more impressed with Grendel's popularity if when I meet new landowners and I tell them I shoot a 6.5 Grendel, they respond with something positive above the standard response I get which is, "I have heard of that."

As far as military use, the 6.8 SPC is a much better fit in regards to case design for reliabilty in feeding, extracting, etc.

But even the military opted NOT to go with the 6.8 SPC. That ship has sailed.

 

[BreechFace]

But even the military opted NOT to go with the 6.8 SPC. That ship has sailed.

Agreed, but that was the design specification of 6.8 SPC is to be optimized for the AR15 platform. Just stating some facts about some cartridges in the mix around the Grendel.

 

[mjsdwash]

B.O. offers much easier to get components, powder usually availability in a shortage, castable bullets, 5.56 mags and bolts, quieter non-suppressed, and widest variety of bullets. seems superior for anything but 200+ yard target shooting.
The BO is a great reloader round. I do not recommend it for factory ammo users .
$0.17/round at current prices to reload. I couldn't do that with the Grendal.

 

[tark]

I have no use for either one. Two of the most useless cartridges ever invented. For me, anyway.

And it is obvious looking at the two that they are not based on the same parent case.

 

[MechaDragon]

300 BLK was intended to replace the 9mm/45ACP MP5 platform. And without a doubt I would take a 300 BLK shooting subs over an MP5, if I were kicking in doors or doing hostage rescue, etc that the MP5 was being used for. The ability of switching from subsonic to supers with a magazine change was a great advantage for those in the situations. Inside buildings the subs with quiet effectiveness and multiple hits on targets with good accuracy is the name of the game, but what happens when one exits the building to clear another and distances go from 15 feet to 50-100 yards.

To me it comes down to whether one likes to hunt with an AR. I have and will in the future hunt with my AR's; but I prefer to hunt with a bolt action. And when that is the case, why settle on a "just good enough" to fit in an AR when I can get "enough to more than enough" with a bolt action.

As far as military use, the 6.8 SPC is a much better fit in regards to case design for reliabilty in feeding, extracting, etc.

So my intention isn't really to hunt with the rifle/pistol. My girlfriend is actually the avid hunter and owns a classic 308 Bolt Action for that purpose.

My specific purpose is the most versatile firearm that will fit in a backpack. Why? Because a versitile weapon that can be discreetly carried can be useful in almost any given situation.

For example, when on a hunting trip I could carry the 6.5 Grendel as bear or other predator defense and have it at the ready Slung over my shoulder, and should I happen to catch a deer at shorter range, I can still take the shot.

Another example is SHTF, whatever situation it may be. While the ammo not being popular is certainly an issue in such a situation, I do intend on adding a few hundred rounds for my rifle (whatever rifle/pistol I end up with in the end) to my 3-day survival bag setup which also has room for the weapon itself.

Yet another use for such a weapon is what many refer to as a "Truck Gun" or "Trunk Gun". While Im not convinced the situation would ever arise in real life, there is some peace of mind knowing that if something goes really really wrong and my handgun cannot handle the situation, that I can lay down suppressing fire as I make my way towards the car to retrieve a semi-automatic rifle with much more power and may more spare magazines loaded and ready to go.

Yet another situation is indeed Home Defense. While not the ideal caliber considering over-penetration concerns, in a pinch it can be used and will certainly get the job done with that short barreled CQB setup. I would probably leave the rifle loaded with expanding hunting ammunition when at home.

So basically the idea behind this gun is to become my go-to rifle, the rifle that I carry with me almost every day, to go anywhere and do almost anything. From being fun at the range even if I can't afford to shoot off 100 rounds every time (thats what my 22-LR AR Pistol is for), to practical applications like animal defense, hunting in a pinch, home defense, and firefight potential - all in a singular weapon system compact enough to be carried with you discreetly on a daily basis.

6.5 Grendel is pretty much the only cartridge out there that can actually pull such a thing off. 300 Blackout can kind of do it but that limited range plus the bullet drop are kind of an issue that just makes the 6.5 Grendel a far superior option. And because of such versatility in a compact package, I really think 6.5 Grendel should have received the attention from civilians that 300 Blackout got. Hell, I think 6.5 Grendel is more useful for civilians than even a standard 16" AR-15 chambered in 5.56x45mm and in an ideal world where hun owners properly understood the benefits of 6.5 Grendel, it would become the new favorite cartridge of United States citizens.

6.5 Grendel is actually being used in a military, just not the US military. 6.5 Grendel has actually replaced BOTH 5.56x45mm and 7.62x39mm in the Serbian Military as the standard-issue infantry weapon because it fires a projectile with about the same muzzle energy of 7.62x39's heavier hitting bullets but the higher ballistic coefficient of 6.5 Grendel means that the projectile carries that energy out to 500 yards and beyond depending on barrel length and ammunition used and is much flatter shooting that the AK round. So really, 6.5 Grendel is the "best-of-both-worlds" middle ground that gets you ballistics somewhat like 556 and somewhat like 762 at the same time.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I can tell you that before the thing that drove prices up a few years ago,

It wasn't a thing, it was a person.

 

[MechaDragon]

It wasn't a thing, it was a person.

Oh yeah lol, we all know who did that and we really don't need to make this a political debate lol.

However, despite the higher price of ammunition now, it still doesn't actually make that much sense because back before the price hikes 6.5 Grendel was actually about the same price as 556 because the casing is quite similar to the 762x39.

Even though 556 was also cheaper before the price hike, the difference is that Grendel was also about the same price as 556. I can understand the price of both rounds going up at a similar pace thanks to said political issue that caused prices to skyrocket. But now that both rounds have gone up in price, Grendel has ended up twice as expensive as 556.

I can only assume that this is a result of a compounding effect because of both the political problem of someone very high up in our country who doesn't like guns, combined with the ban on Russian surplus ammo because of the fact that Grendel has a casing so similar to the AK round. As a result, the price of brindle has been affected by far the most drastically thanks to these political issues.

But why 6.5 Grendel? Why not 6 ARC? Why not 6.8 SPC? I think a lot of people asked those questions and the prevailing answer is still 5.56x45 with heavier bullets. Suppressors work great with supersonic loads, even with the 277 Fury. No, the result is not hearing-safe, but they still serve a purpose, and hearing protection is still going to be necessary if anyone else is shooting even handguns, other rifles, mortars, grenades, artillery. When those Israelis killed the three militants in the hospital in the West Bank a couple weeks ago, they were reported to have used suppressors, the use of which with subsonics would have made sense, but the surveillance video clearly shows not all their rifles were suppressed. And what are they using? Galil? Tavor? (I didn't see any bullpups). Probably not subsonics, and almost certainly not 300 BLK.

Israeli forces kill three Palestinian fighters in West Bank hospital raid

CCTV captures undercover forces disguised as medics and nurses in the hospital with weapons raised.

www.bbc.com

The reason for not going 6.8 ARC is simple: The cartridge has basically dropped off the map, it has almost no popularity and no following by hardly anyone. Weirdly enough, Grendel has been picked up not only by the Serbian military, but also here in the States as a popular hunting round for a medium game such as deer because of its insanely good ballistic properties. Out of a full-blown 18-in hunting rifle, Grendel has the power to hold ethical kill energy for deer out to 400-450 yards. I know that doesn't seem possible out of an AR-15 sized platform but it is because the best rounds have a ballistic coefficient around or just above 0.500. Grendel is simply the most capable cartridge available until you step up to a larger AR-10 platform with cartridges related to the 308 Winchester.

 

[MechaDragon]

I have no use for either one. Two of the most useless cartridges ever invented. For me, anyway.

And it is obvious looking at the two that they are not based on the same parent case.

I can understand that not everyone has a purpose for either cartridge and that is perfectly understandable.

However, the claim that they are useless is simply not true. Both cartridges have more real world use cases than the 556 NATO and both are more capable rounds than the 556.

But the 300 Blackout is more useful in the military's real world than Civilian.

Speaking of which, I actually have an idea of how to create a round that is more similar to 556 and 300 Blackout by using the original 556 case and therefore retaining magazine capacity which is one thing that Grendel does not have because it's fatter case means less magazine capacity - and use a projectile in between that of the 556 and the 300 Blackout that is specifically focused on aerodynamics and high ballistic coefficients to create a cartridge similar to Grendel incapability but costs much less to produce because of the 556 case.

For example, why not take the 556 case and neck up just as they did with 300 blackout, except instead of a big fat projectile, more of a medium projectile That is very pointy and aerodynamic like the Grendel projectile, just a bit smaller and lighter overall. This ideal projectile would have a grain weight typically around 80 grains at the lightest point and 110 or 120 grains at the heaviest point. Hunting rounds would typically be 95 or 100 grain with tips similar to the Hornady SST or Black series.

What you would end up with, as long as you focused on high ballistic coefficients for the design of the projectiles, would be an intermediate cartridge that is much cheaper to produce than the Grendel but has somewhat similar ballistic capabilities. Of course the lighter projectile wouldn't quite have the same ability to carry energy down range like the Grendel can, but it would certainly heavily outclass 300 Blackout and you would probably be able to make And ethical kill on deer At 300 yd distance from a standard 16-in carbine barrel without even second-guessing the round or it's accuracy. And if used in conjunction with a modern, fast burning propellant, then it could be as efficient as Grendel is from shorter barrels, although obviously not quite as capable because Grendel has a bigger casing and more powder behind it.

 

[MechaDragon]

Oh guys By the way you need to see the weapon system that is being used by the Serbian military because it is awesome. It is an incredible weapon platform that can swap between 762 and 6.5 Grendel with minimal effort and can even be done on the fly. This is a weapon system that I would be extremely interested in, if it ever comes to the US. Unfortunately, that probably won't happen for another couple of years:

This is the Next-Gen AK47: The Zastava M19 MCS

In this episode of TFBTV, @James Reeves is personally visiting Zastava headquarters in Serbia to test out the successor to the legendary M70: the brand new...

youtu.be

 

[Jim Watson]

For example, why not take the 556 case and neck up just as they did with 300 blackout, except instead of a big fat projectile, more of a medium projectile That is very pointy and aerodynamic like the Grendel projectile, just a bit smaller and lighter overall. This ideal projectile would have a grain weight typically around 80 grains at the lightest point and 110 or 120 grains at the heaviest point. Hunting rounds would typically be 95 or 100 grain with tips similar to the Hornady SST or Black series.

The 5.56 case has been necked for every caliber you can buy bullets for, up to an odd looking .338.
The .25-45 Sharps is listed as an 87 grain spitzer at 3000 fps in a 24" barrel, right in there with the .250 Savage.
I am sure somebody has loaded 6x45 short enough for an AR but what I could come up with quickly was about single shots and bolt actions loaded long.
I found a couple of 6.5s on 5.56 brass but with more case forming than just neck expansion.

 

[MechaDragon]

The 5.56 case has been necked for every caliber you can buy bullets for, up to an odd looking .338.
The .25-45 Sharps is listed as an 87 grain spitzer at 3000 fps in a 24" barrel, right in there with the .250 Savage.
I am sure somebody has loaded 6x45 short enough for an AR but what I could come up with quickly was about single shots and bolt actions loaded long.
I found a couple of 6.5s on 5.56 brass but with more case forming than just neck expansion.

Oh yes of course I've heard of the 25-45 and .250 Savage but those are also not very popular rounds and they don't use powders that burn quickly like 300 Blackout or 6.5 and Grendel. You could possibly take one of those cartridges and modify it to better suit the purpose and then go into an AR, but currently I don't know of a single AR made that is semi-automatic and a modern sporting rifle that takes either one of those calibers.

As you said, the Savage round gets close to 3000 FPS from a 24-in length barrel. While that makes it an excellent round for hunters specifically, it's not a very good round for any other use case simply because it's not designed to go into a modern sporting rifle and most certainly not designed to be efficient out of a shorter barrel. That difference is specifically why the 6.5 Grendel is so much better suited to a multi-purpose role And that is specifically why the Serbian military has taken on 6.5 Grendel as it's new infantry cartridge.

Anything else It just so happens to be that because of 6.5 Grendel's extremely high ballistic coefficient, it is also extremely well suited to hunting. And because it is so good at being both a fighting cartridge and a hunting cartridge, that automatically puts it into a category very high up on the list of multirole uses. Then the fact that Grendel is so efficient out of shorter barrels brings it up that stack even higher still.