Topic Dead

[MechaDragon]

In a nutshell...
6.5 Grendel is the quarter horse of AR-15 actions

Strange term, but yea, that kinda makes sense... *Nods Head in Agreement*

 

[Mk-211]

Wooo, feel like I just read a dissertation on 6.5 Grendel.

If the 30 AR was marketed better, would there be a 300 BO or 6.5 Grendel? Maybe

The one handloading round that would give the 30 AR a run, would be the 7mm Valkyrie.

Marketing will probably do more for a new round then anything.

 

[MechaDragon]

Wooo, feel like I just read a dissertation on 6.5 Grendel.

If the 30 AR was marketed better, would there be a 300 BO or 6.5 Grendel? Maybe

The one handloading round that would give the 30 AR a run, would be the 7mm Valkyrie.

Marketing will probably do more for a new round then anything.

Ya, thats what sucks - 6.5G is such a great cartridge that unfortunately just wasn't marketed well enough.

That and from its invention in 2003 to 2011, Alexander had the cartridge patented, which SEVERELY slowed down adoption as for those first 8 years, almost nobody was able to manufacture 6.5G ammunition... Good job Mr. A

Otherwise the US military probably would have adopted it over 300BO because SubSonic ammunition DOES EXIST for 6.5G and would have been a more capable cartridge overall. Bummer how things work out...

If you are interested in learning about another interesting cartridge, scroll up a little bit from here and check out my previous reply to someone else where I mentioned the Supreme Court current standing on the NFA Pistol Brace rule.

 

[MechaDragon]

To me, the baffling thing is that there aren't more AK's in Grendel. I mean, it's basically an AK round necked down to 6.5mm and blown out so there's no taper. It's not the thing to improve the AK for what the AK is good at, but it could conceivably expand the AK's repertoire to things one doesn't presently imagine. Grendel prices as of late are the obvious reason not many would want an AK in 6.5mm, but when it was cheaper, the recipe made some sense.

Grendel, while it had any chance of taking more hold than it has, saw competition from 6.8 SPC. That cartridge had a lot going for it, but failed to catch on and must be substantially less popular than Grendel or ARC now, but I think it did prevent Grendel from attaining a greater market share while it was uncertain which one was better.

This is actually becoming a reality as we speak. The new Serbian Military weapon is an AK that can be swapped to 6.5 Grendel in a matter of seconds with a quick barrel and magazine change.

Check it out, I think ull like it very much. Too bad its not coming to the US for a least another few years:

This is the Next-Gen AK47: The Zastava M19 MCS

In this episode of TFBTV, @James Reeves is personally visiting Zastava headquarters in Serbia to test out the successor to the legendary M70: the brand new...

youtu.be

 

[someguy2800]

But that's the thing, I don't want 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC for home defense. I don't want 300BLK SubSonic either, all because each and every one of these cartridges all have very high risk of over-penetrarion and I live in a city.

So for home defense, my choice is either the Stribog SP9-A3G 8" or CZ Scorpion 7.75" edition. Both are 9mm PCCs, both have barrel lengths where most 9mm cartridges max out in efficiency and then its diminishing returns. Both are two-handed, braced weapons with much more stability and capability than a 9mm Handgun, both have high-capacity magazines available, both get as quiet as 300BLK Subsonic with similar loads, and both will stop a bad guy in his tracks with a single well-placed shot using the correct defensive load - but without over-penetrarion.

So basically, a CZ Scorpion has the same defensive capability as a 300BLK in a realistic home defense scenario at very close range, but has none of the drawbacks of 300BLK, and are are ton of fun to shoot at the range with way more affordable ammunition.

So why would I want 300BLK? Why is it better than a 9mm PCC as a civilian's home defense gun? 9mm can have effective kill range up to 100 yards with the correct load from an 8" barrel, and is very easy to land accurate shots on steel at 200-250 yards, so why should I care about 300BLK as a civilian who is defending his home and doesn't need or even want the extra penetration offered by 300BLK 220-Grain Subsonic?

I bet you can't really answer that question, now can you? You yourself said I would never use 6.5G at range except that I will because 6.5G in the official Alexander Arms 11.5" upper is capable of an ethical kill on deer at 250-300 yards, so its a fairly capable hunting cartridge in a short, small firearm package. One of the very best "General-Purpose SBR" cartridges planet Earth has to offer, only being contested by either 6mm ARC or a larger caliber in a larger AR-10-ish platform.

If you are discounting home defense or personal defense then you have created a straw man argument here because absolutely nobody is building 300 blackout SBR's to deer hunt at 250-300 yards so of what use is this comparison? This is like saying a porsche 911 is absolutely useless because its towing capacity is so much worse than an F350 super duty. Yes 300 blackout is bad at long range shooting. Nobody was ever arguing it was good at it. Horses for courses.

To answer you question why a 300 blackout is better than a 9mm pcc home defense gun, because a 110 or 125 grain V-max at 2000-2500 fps is so much more terminally effective than any 9mm luger load that they don't even belong in the same conversation. I have no use for 220 grain subsonic 300 blackout loads other than for range fun. I have had both a 300 blk and a 9mm pcc with supressors on both, and I prefer the 9mm shooting 147 subs for range fun, but I would not use it as my home defense gun because it is not as reliable as a 300 blackout AR and its so much less powerful than a 300 blackout shooting supers that I would just never seriously consider it. I don't know why you are making the presumption than a 300 blackout can only use subs for home defense. Plus a 9mm will be useless against soft body armor whereas a 300 blackout will pass through level 3A. A 300 blackout shooting supers also has less sight disruption and recoil than most blowback 9mm's. My 9mm is a roller delayed blowback and I would say they are about equal.

I would suggest looking into penetration test of handgun rounds vs expanding rifle rounds. Contrary to what you may think, expanding rifle bullets will often penetrate less than handgun rounds, so I do not see overpenetration as a reason to not use a supersonic rifle round. Just use an appropriate bullet.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/home-defense-overpenetration/#toc13

 

[MechaDragon]

If you are discounting home defense or personal defense then you have created a straw man argument here because absolutely nobody is building 300 blackout SBR's to deer hunt at 250-300 yards so of what use is this comparison? This is like saying a porsche 911 is absolutely useless because its towing capacity is so much worse than an F350 super duty. Yes 300 blackout is bad at long range shooting. Nobody was ever arguing it was good at it. Horses for courses.

To answer you question why a 300 blackout is better than a 9mm pcc home defense gun, because a 110 or 125 grain V-max at 2000-2500 fps is so much more terminally effective than any 9mm luger load that they don't even belong in the same conversation. I have no use for 220 grain subsonic 300 blackout loads other than for range fun. I have had both a 300 blk and a 9mm pcc with supressors on both, and I prefer the 9mm shooting 147 subs for range fun, but I would not use it as my home defense gun because it is not as reliable as a 300 blackout AR and its so much less powerful than a 300 blackout shooting supers that I would just never seriously consider it. I don't know why you are making the presumption than a 300 blackout can only use subs for home defense. Plus a 9mm will be useless against soft body armor whereas a 300 blackout will pass through level 3A. A 300 blackout shooting supers also has less sight disruption and recoil than most blowback 9mm's. My 9mm is a roller delayed blowback and I would say they are about equal.

I would suggest looking into penetration test of handgun rounds vs expanding rifle rounds. Contrary to what you may think, expanding rifle bullets will often penetrate less than handgun rounds, so I do not see overpenetration as a reason to not use a supersonic rifle round. Just use an appropriate bullet.

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/home-defense-overpenetration/#toc13

While your point about the appropriate round is a sound one, keep in mind that the majority of 300BLK builds are for the SubSonic Ammunition. That - is a problem.

And of course I have researched 9mm penetration and expansion. In fact, it was the very first thing I ever researched before becoming a gun owner for the first time because my very first firearm was, of course, my 9mm CCW Handgun.

Some good rifle rounds can do it sure, but so can 9mm, especially from an 8" PCC that adds a SUBSTANTIAL amount of energy and velocity to the round versus a 5" Full Sized Handgun and a MASSIVE amount more than my 4" Compact CCW.

Again, my rifle will be more general purpose, not just a home defense weapon. But you do you, with the correct ammunition yes, it can work without over penetration, but most people run the Subsonics for the hearing protection for themselves and their family members, all the while unaware of the issue with it.

However I heard a company actually recently released a Subsonic 300BLK that solves the issue. Ugh I can't remember but it was like 188 or 189 grain - super close to the speed of sound but bot quite out of a short barrel and expands much better. So I suppose there are a couple options.

But again, if my 9mm 4" handgun can protect me in a bad neighborhood, then an 8" 9mm PCC can most certainly protect my home without issue.

Its strange you think 9mm isn't enough when thousands of people have defended themselves in the streets with 9mm handguns and the Police use it. That just doesn't make any sense. Its been proven and in mass use for what, 50-ish years now? When did the first autoloader 9mm handguns show up?

An 8 inch barrel PCC increases 9mm energy by roughly 25% in comparison to my 4" CCW. Of course I would run proper defense ammunition. I really like the CorBon 115-Grain +P JHP that I carry in my handgun so we will use that as an example.

From the Handgun - 1316 FPS, 442 Ft-Lbs. Nothing like a rifle but plenty, single well placed shot or two center mass shots will easily stop a person.

From the 8" Stribog SP9-A3G with the same ammunition - 1458 FPS, 543 Ft-Lbs. Okay, now you can kill a deer, at point-blank range that is. But that means the bad guy - hes done, with a single round to the chest.

There are better ammunition choices for the longer barrel, like Koenig Defense 110-Grain or since its a bigger gun that can handle the pressure, possibly even the famous Buffalo Bore +P+ Hollow Point that pushes near 500 Ft-Lbs from the 4" Handgun. From the 8" PCC we are looking at just shy of 650 ft-Lbs, which is on par with standard 10mm training FMJ rounds. Thats kind of insane.

And if I need range, as unlikely as that is - well then Ill grab the Grendel/6mm ARC. So yes, I will have both, eventually.

 

[westernrover]

When did the first autoloader 9mm handguns show up?
123 years ago.

 

[MechaDragon]

When did the first autoloader 9mm handguns show up?
123 years ago.

Wait what? I thought that time period was all revolvers and lever action carbines.

They had modern semi-auto, autoloading handguns 123 years ago???

Why the hell didn't anyone use it? Lol

Oh right, DUH - 1911. The name of the 1911 is literally the year it was invented. Totally spaced that lol

Oh but wait wasn't the 1911 originally 45 cal only? So how about specifically 9mm semi-auto handguns?

EDIT: NVM I googled it. Mauser C92 circa 1896. Wow, did not realize 9mm semi autos were that old.

Thats just so odd, why were our police still using 38 special into the 80's? I can understand 357 Mag revolvers thats a powerful round close to the power of 10mm Auto, but why the 38 special? 9mm must have been expensive as hell back then to just completely dismiss a semi auto over a 38 special revolver.

Oh well, at least some opted for 44 Mag here and there.

 

[Mk-211]

The 1911 was adopted for service in 1911, dates back to the 1890's.

 

[westernrover]

But that's the thing, I don't want 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC for home defense. I don't want 300BLK SubSonic either, all because each and every one of these cartridges all have very high risk of over-penetrarion and I live in a city.

Over-penetration. If it doesn't penetrate flimsy barriers like interior walls and doors, it won't penetrate valid targets either. If the concern is penetration through valid targets and then too far beyond, it's been established that the collateral damage from misses is of greater concern than the potential collateral damage from hits. Worrying about hits over-penetrating a valid target isn't worthwhile.

So for home defense, my choice is either the Stribog SP9-A3G 8" or CZ Scorpion 7.75" edition. Both are 9mm PCCs, both have barrel lengths where most 9mm cartridges max out in efficiency and then its diminishing returns. Both are two-handed, braced weapons with much more stability and capability than a 9mm Handgun, both have high-capacity magazines available, both get as quiet as 300BLK Subsonic with similar loads, and both will stop a bad guy in his tracks with a single well-placed shot using the correct defensive load - but without over-penetrarion.\

So you have both those to choose from? and they're suppressed? Or you're just imagining what you'd choose? The single-shot stops are certainly imaginary.

So basically, a CZ Scorpion has the same defensive capability as a 300BLK in a realistic home defense scenario at very close range, but has none of the drawbacks of 300BLK, and are are ton of fun to shoot at the range with way more affordable ammunition.

You've come to this conclusion from what experience?

So why would I want 300BLK? Why is it better than a 9mm PCC as a civilian's home defense gun? 9mm can have effective kill range up to 100 yards with the correct load from an 8" barrel, and is very easy to land accurate shots on steel at 200-250 yards, so why should I care about 300BLK as a civilian who is defending his home and doesn't need or even want the extra penetration offered by 300BLK 220-Grain Subsonic?

The 9mm PCC is a blowback action that rocks the gun. The AR is gas-operated with a rotating bolt. I've shot both and know without a doubt that I prefer the gas gun to blowback. I suspect you've never shot a PCC.

I bet you can't really answer that question, now can you? You yourself said I would never use 6.5G at range except that I will because 6.5G in the official Alexander Arms 11.5" upper is capable of an ethical kill on deer at 250-300 yards, so its a fairly capable hunting cartridge in a short, small firearm package. One of the very best "General-Purpose SBR" cartridges planet Earth has to offer, only being contested by either 6mm ARC or a larger caliber in a larger AR-10-ish platform.

You live in the city and will never see a deer at 300 yards, but only maybe in the headlights of your car. You don't even have a hunter safety training card, much less a license or a tag. If you ever go to the effort of getting those things and yourself to a hunt unit where the tag is valid, I seriously doubt you'll be glad that you brought at 11.5" 6.5 Grendel upper.

Wait what? I thought that time period was all revolvers and lever action carbines.

They had modern semi-auto, autoloading handguns 123 years ago???

Why the hell didn't anyone use it? Lol

They absolutely did. I can tell you weren't there to see.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Oh but wait wasn't the 1911 originally 45 cal only? So how about specifically 9mm semi-auto handguns?

They came before the .45, such as the 9mm Luger in 1901. First semi pistol was 1891.

 

[Telekinesis]

300 Blackout is absolutely fantastic for what the military wanted. With subsonic ammunition and a suppressor, 300 Blackout is the most effective whisper quiet weapon system ever made.

But 6.5 Grendel does wipe the floor with 300 blackout when it comes to being a more general-purpose round and being effective and longer ranges.

.300 Whisper (and predecessors) was designed by civilians, for civilians. They were (generally speaking) suppressor nerds who wanted to wildcat their way into having a very quiet AR without having to buy anything more than a new barrel.

The only effective difference between .300 Whisper and .300 Blackout is that AAC (a suppressor manufacturer) had a much better marketing team, got SAAMI standardization, and convinced large ammo manufacturers to load and market the ammo. The military just saw what was happening in the civilian side and saw that it filled the niche of the aging suppressed MP5.

The .300 Blk was never designed nor intended to be a military general purpose rifle round.

To be honest, 300 Blackout doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for the civilian market in general because the subsonic rounds are so heavy that they tend to easily pass through a single human and will continue traveling through the wall behind him. This is obviously not a problem for the military, but it IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM for a civilian trying to defend their home.

And because of that serious problem with overpenetration, I recommend a 9 mm PCC with a somewhat longer barrel than a handgun if you want a more capable, two-handed weapon system to defend your home with. 9 mm suppresses just as well as 300 blackout, there are a bunch of subsonic loads out there in 9 mm with much cheaper ammunition and because the round isn't so heavy and so powerful, there is very little risk of overpenetration when you use the correct defensive load.

Your house isn't 100 yd long, it's not even 50 yards long, not even 25 yards in most cases. Therefore, in the real world you simply do not need 300 Blackout and any given capacity as a civilian. It is a fantastic military round and a huge innovation for the military and cover operations and I would never try to undermine it's brilliance at what it's supposed to do. But again, as a general purpose cartridge with faster supersonic loads, just about any other cartridge is a better option.

So for me personally, I will certainly be picking up a 9 mm PCC for home defense and also because let's be honest, 9 mm PCCs are a bunch of fun at the range and the ammo is in pricey so it's a win-win.

It sounds like you’re assuming that the only reason to have a .300 Blk is for home defense? And that in short range work it’s not beneficial to use a rifle?

This is another one of those “experience” things… If you use correctly designed .300 Blk bullets, they will not overpenetrate if you hit your target. If you’re using FMJ maybe they will, but good defensive ammo is designed to open and stop, or at least have lost a substantial amount of velocity upon exiting.

Now if you miss, just about every round that is reasonable for defense is going to penetrate normal building materials. But something like a .223 is going to penetrate LESS than even that 9mm PCC you are talking about.

As for my go-to rifle cartridge, that is 100% between 6.5 Grendel and 6 mm ARC in terms of performance. However, again I need said rifle to be compact, lightweight, and fit into a backpack while still delivering high performance out to at least medium ranges.

So wait, a .300 Blk with subs simply has too much overpenetration and range to be even remotely reasonable for a civilian, but you want a rifle that fits in a backpack (which I assume means defensive use) and also retains the ability to be lethal beyond 200 yards?

 

[MechaDragon]

The 1911 was adopted for service in 1911, dates back to the 1890's.

Huh, interesting. Well according to the goggle search the Mauser came first in 1896, so thats a close one I guess.

Anyways back on topic - 9mm perfectly acceptable for home defense, especially from a PCC that can push it accurately out to 100 yards with plenty of repeated hits with fairly rapid fire, see CZ Scorpion example below. 9mm is no longer the same-old handgun caliber once you put it into a PCC. Well it is, but it isn't - you know what I mean.

This is of course the classic 7.75" version: https://youtu.be/Qld95eTDVdk?si=CjoqYeYU7pM44QEJ

Now moving on, does anyone have any information regarding at what point 6mm ARC becomes a better round as you increase barrel length vs 6.5 Grendel? What we are looking for is the barrel length where 6mm ARC carries more energy than 6.5 Grendel at about 300 yards. Obviously due to cartridge design, 6.5 Grendel is superior in the really short barrels. But what about 11.5"? 12.5"? 13.7"? I'm pretty sure at the point of a 14.5" Pin and weld, 6mm ARC has taken the lead.

 

[Mk-211]

Colt M1911 Pistol · Digital History 511: Theory & Practice

CCSU Digital History 511

library.ccsu.edu

 

[MechaDragon]

So wait, a .300 Blk with subs simply has too much overpenetration and range to be even remotely reasonable for a civilian, but you want a rifle that fits in a backpack (which I assume means defensive use) and also retains the ability to be lethal beyond 200 yards?

I don't understand how you still don't get this. General Purpose Weapon that fits in a backpack. Not just defense. In fact, the 9mm PCC comes FIRST in regards to home defense.

Backpack gun has the ability to come with me anywhere, but if things go bad, I can feed myself with some deer. And no that doesn't have to be SHTF, it can be you are just lost in the woods, which I guess is a form of SHTF considering that phrase literally covers anything bad.

Also on hunting trips with the girlfriend (she is the avid hunter, Im the avid semi-auto guy, she carries a classic 3-0-Hate Bolt-Action Hunting Rifle), I can watch for Grizzly Bears, or if the deer is close, I can take the shot if for some reason she cannot.

Now if I see a bunch of dudes approaching the home from like 100-200 yards and its absolute pandemonium with people rioting in the streets without rule of law, then ya at that point maybe Ill bust the backpack rifle out for home defense.

Also would be a pretty damn good zombie apocalypse gun in terms of performance - but a bad choice because ammo is rare. But Im a realistic guy - Zombie apocalypse is basically impossible, so is the rioters raining down on my house for some strange reason (go bother someone else you freaks lol).

And of course there are EVEN MORE use cases for a weapon system such as this. Do you see where Im going with this? Surely you do at this point. Its basically as versatile as the military's new M7 6.8x51mm rifle, just the smaller AR15 SBR instead of the mega AR-10 SBR with super high pressure cases. Holy crap 6.8x51mm is truly something else. No infantry weapon ever made could ever even come close in comparison. The M7 is a 13-in barreled weapon that still delivers lethal energy at 1000 yards. Ya, Sig knew what the hell they were doing, no question there. Punches through standard level body armor like its literally paper. But I digress, no civilian needs that kind of power for anything really.

But the AR-15 version of the M7? A similar concept behind it even if I can't effectively kill at anywhere near the range? Makes perfect sense for a civilian .

Im just not sure how you still haven't caught on to the concept yet?

 

[BreechFace]

While your point about the appropriate round is a sound one, keep in mind that the majority of 300BLK builds are for the SubSonic Ammunition. That - is a problem.

Why do you presume that a majority of 300BLK builds are for subsonics? Me thinks you project too much. I guarantee more supersonic 300BLK is purchased and shot than subs.

Some good rifle rounds can do it sure, but so can 9mm, especially from an 8" PCC that adds a SUBSTANTIAL amount of energy and velocity to the round versus a 5" Full Sized Handgun and a MASSIVE amount more than my 4" Compact CCW.

Yeah 25% if that’s correct is a good bump, but it’s still a 9mm pistol round. Not even in the same realm of performance than a 110gr .308 traveling at 2250fps out of an 10” 300 BLK.

Again, my rifle will be more general purpose, not just a home defense weapon. But you do you, with the correct ammunition yes, it can work without over penetration, but most people run the Subsonics for the hearing protection for themselves and their family members, all the while unaware of the issue with it.

There you go again saying most people. How do you know this? My HD firearm is a suppressed 10” 300BLK, and you know what’s loaded in the magazine? 30 rounds of 115gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos rounds. Not subs.

However I heard a company actually recently released a Subsonic 300BLK that solves the issue. Ugh I can't remember but it was like 188 or 189 grain - super close to the speed of sound but bot quite out of a short barrel and expands much better. So I suppose there are a couple options.

There are plenty of subsonic expanding 308 offerings, Makers, Lehigh, Hornady, to name a few.

But again, if my 9mm 4" handgun can protect me in a bad neighborhood, then an 8" 9mm PCC can most certainly protect my home without issue.

Its strange you think 9mm isn't enough when thousands of people have defended themselves in the streets with 9mm handguns and the Police use it. That just doesn't make any sense. Its been proven and in mass use for what, 50-ish years now? When did the first autoloader 9mm handguns show up?

An 8 inch barrel PCC increases 9mm energy by roughly 25% in comparison to my 4" CCW. Of course I would run proper defense ammunition. I really like the CorBon 115-Grain +P JHP that I carry in my handgun so we will use that as an example.

From the Handgun - 1316 FPS, 442 Ft-Lbs. Nothing like a rifle but plenty, single well placed shot or two center mass shots will easily stop a person.

From the 8" Stribog SP9-A3G with the same ammunition - 1458 FPS, 543 Ft-Lbs. Okay, now you can kill a deer, at point-blank range that is. But that means the bad guy - hes done, with a single round to the chest.

There are better ammunition choices for the longer barrel, like Koenig Defense 110-Grain or since its a bigger gun that can handle the pressure, possibly even the famous Buffalo Bore +P+ Hollow Point that pushes near 500 Ft-Lbs from the 4" Handgun. From the 8" PCC we are looking at just shy of 650 ft-Lbs, which is on par with standard 10mm training FMJ rounds. Thats kind of insane.

Let’s see a 115gr controlled expansion 308 at 2,250fps out of my 10” suppressed AR.

OR

115gr .355” JHP at 1,458fps out of a PCC

Ummmm…I’ll take door #1 Alex for $500.

 

[BreechFace]

But get your Grendel and you do you. It’s not a bad cartridge. Plenty of people use it and like it. I don’t but I don’t expect people to care I don’t.

 

[Mk-211]

I don't understand how you still don't get this. General Purpose Weapon that fits in a backpack. Not just defense. In fact, the 9mm PCC comes FIRST in regards to home defense.

Backpack gun has the ability to come with me anywhere, but if things go bad, I can feed myself with some deer. And no that doesn't have to be SHTF, it can be you are just lost in the woods, which I guess is a form of SHTF considering that phrase literally covers anything bad.

Also on hunting trips with the girlfriend (she is the avid hunter, Im the avid semi-auto guy, she carries a classic 3-0-Hate Bolt-Action Hunting Rifle), I can watch for Grizzly Bears, or if the deer is close, I can take the shot if for some reason she cannot.

Now if I see a bunch of dudes approaching the home from like 100-200 yards and its absolute pandemonium with people rioting in the streets without rule of law, then ya at that point maybe Ill bust the backpack rifle out for home defense.

Also would be a pretty damn good zombie apocalypse gun in terms of performance - but a bad choice because ammo is rare. But Im a realistic guy - Zombie apocalypse is basically impossible, so is the rioters raining down on my house for some strange reason (go bother someone else you freaks lol).

And of course there are EVEN MORE use cases for a weapon system such as this. Do you see where Im going with this? Surely you do at this point. Its basically as versatile as the military's new M7 6.8x51mm rifle, just the smaller AR15 SBR instead of the mega AR-10 SBR with super high pressure cases. Holy crap 6.8x51mm is truly something else. No infantry weapon ever made could ever even come close in comparison. The M7 is a 13-in barreled weapon that still delivers lethal energy at 1000 yards. Ya, Sig knew what the hell they were doing, no question there. Punches through standard level body armor like its literally paper. But I digress, no civilian needs that kind of power for anything really.

But the AR-15 version of the M7? A similar concept behind it even if I can't effectively kill at anywhere near the range? Makes perfect sense for a civilian .

Im just not sure how you still haven't caught on to the concept yet?

LOL

I'm done after this post!

 

[BreechFace]

LOL

I'm done after this post!

I know…

I feel like I’m talking with a teenager formulating his discussion on ChatGPT.

Just weird, his first posts/thread and it was off to the races!

 

[MechaDragon]

Over-penetration. If it doesn't penetrate flimsy barriers like interior walls and doors, it won't penetrate valid targets either. If the concern is penetration through valid targets and then too far beyond, it's been established that the collateral damage from misses is of greater concern than the potential collateral damage from hits. Worrying about hits over-penetrating a valid target isn't worthwhile.

So you have both those to choose from? and they're suppressed? Or you're just imagining what you'd choose? The single-shot stops are certainly imaginary.

You've come to this conclusion from what experience?

The 9mm PCC is a blowback action that rocks the gun. The AR is gas-operated with a rotating bolt. I've shot both and know without a doubt that I prefer the gas gun to blowback. I suspect you've never shot a PCC.

You live in the city and will never see a deer at 300 yards, but only maybe in the headlights of your car. You don't even have a hunter safety training card, much less a license or a tag. If you ever go to the effort of getting those things and yourself to a hunt unit where the tag is valid, I seriously doubt you'll be glad that you brought at 11.5" 6.5 Grendel upper.

They absolutely did. I can tell you weren't there to see.

Ugh, okay, here we go. Yes I have shot a PCC. And you ever heard of this little thing called um... Hunting Trip? Ya we do that, go away from the city up into the mountains. Its totally a thing that people do.

PCC I shot was just a standard Scorpion. Trigger sucks balls, I learned the hard way why everyone talks trash on the Scorpion trigger.

Single shot stops are certainly not imaginary, its happened literally hundreds of times in real world self defense scenarios from 9mm handguns.

Wait - correction there - the first shot that CONNECTS. Its pretty much when the defender hits vitals with the first round. They don't die instantly, but the are incapacitated. Does it happen all the time? Not even close, its pretty rare actually. Do I have a much higher chance of one shot stop with a PCC thanks to stable, braces operation and additional 25% muzzle energy? Absolutely.

Uh, over penetration in the city? Innocent bystanders have been hit before, yes it is a concern. Thats just a fact. Literally go look at the thousands on conversations on the Internet where people discuss it, enough said on that one.

As for suppression on the PCC, maybe? I mean its not 100% necessary, 9mm doesn't cause permanent hearing damage if only fired a few times and certainly not from an 8" barrel but it would be nice to have I guess? The point is 9mm suppresses very well, it very quiet. Shhhh, Im hunting Rabbits...

I am perfectly aware of the different operating systems in PCCs. This is why I am so interested in the Stribog SP9-A3G. The latest generation of Stribog no longer has malfunction issues so horray, roller-delayed blowback like an MP5 that costs under $1000 and is just as reliable? Sounds pretty damn good to me.

This guy had malfunctions at first but he found out around 9:00 into the video that a 3rd party attachment was interfering with the recoil system and it actually damaged it. Weird, but he put a different one on and then the next 1000 rounds went smooth as butter.

Stribog SP9A3G

Aaron reviews the latest generation of the Stribog SP9, the SP9A3G

youtu.be

This guy loves his SP9-A3G so much he did full-blown NFA Stamp and made it a TRUE SBR. Donno why the hell you would ever wanna do that to a sub-$1000 gun but hey, at least it means the new gen of Stribog is actually pretty good:

Stribog SP9A3G SBR

JOIN THE FIGHT: https://donate.gunowners.org/ga01/Eric shoots and discusses a Stribog SP9A3G from @gunzonedeals3261 that we turned into a handy SBR. For the ...

youtu.be

The more expensive option would probably be the CMMG with their radial-delayed blowback but they just have weird offerings. The correct barrel length is on the Banshee which has a buffer tube, while the bufferless dissent is only offered in 6.5", 10.5", and 16.5". *** CMMG, how could you screw up something so simple so badly. Well I guess 10.5" isn't terrible. Some 9mm rounds can benefit from barrels past 8" its just not a huge advantage for the extra weight and bulk.

For PCC I am deciding between Scorpion 7.75" 3+ and then have a shop do some trigger work to it, Stribog SP9-A3G 8", or if I want to spend 2 grand on a 9mm (which I dont) then CMMG Dissent 9mm 10.5". Leaning Stribog for roller delay at good value now that malfunctions are fixed.

For Rifle its between 6.5G and 6mm ARC, what brand and model and length are all undecided until I know what cartridge takes the lead in ballistics at what barrel length, then I go from there.

 

[Telekinesis]

Im just not sure how you still haven't caught on to the concept yet?

Maybe because all of your arguments are regurgitated “facts” from people whose main goal is to drive clicks and engagement and justify the minute differences between guns of various calibers? The arguments that civilians shouldn’t use rifles for defense and that the new military rifle/cartridge is just too powerful for civilians are ridiculous.

There are a number of things you’ve said in this thread that are just far enough away from what is actually right that it shows you don’t truly understand what you’re discussing.

My recommendation is to learn more, regurgitate less. You’ve obviously drank the cool aid on this. Go buy a 6.5 Grendel, learn how to shoot it, and then compare what you can do to what a good shooter can do with a 5.56 AR and tell us where the differences are. I guarantee they will be smaller than what you expect outside of a few small operational windows, and if you’re honest you’ll agree that those small windows are better served by a different weapon anyway.

While your point about the appropriate round is a sound one, keep in mind that the majority of 300BLK builds are for the SubSonic Ammunition. That - is a problem.

Where did you get this info? One of the selling points for .300 Blk is that there’s no difference in the gun between one using subs vs supers.

Its strange you think 9mm isn't enough when thousands of people have defended themselves in the streets with 9mm handguns and the Police use it. That just doesn't make any sense.

It makes sense once you learn about terminal ballistics and what actually happens when people are shot. There is a significant difference in effectiveness between a pistol round and a rifle round.

The majority of pistol “stops” are psychological. People think “oh, I’ve been shot, I must fall down” or some sort of “hey, I’ve been shot, maybe I should stop doing what I was doing and go somewhere else”. Outside of a legit CNS hit, you’re not actually forcing a situation where the bad guy can’t physically continue. Something like 80% of pistol wounds are survivable given adequate and reasonably timely medical treatment.

Yes, pistols can be effective and are used as carry guns, but that’s mostly because they are easier to carry (and hide) than a rifle. Anybody who knows they’re going into a fight and has a choice is carrying a rifle.

 

[MechaDragon]

I know…

I feel like I’m talking with a teenager formulating his discussion on ChatGPT.

Just weird, his first posts/thread and it was off to the races!

LOL

I'm done after this post!

Just forget it. Clearly you do not understand the mindset.

I can only afford one rifle. I will NEVER get another one.

I have shot a fair few number of rifles, but Ive never owned one for myself.

Good god you people act like everyone out there can just own 10 different rifles for 10 different purposes.

Guess what? Thats not me, and theres a pretty big following for 6.5G SBRs for a good reason.

If you can't figure it out, go somewhere else.

Did I ever say that I care about your opinions? Spoiler alert, I dont. This is a discussion about different calibers. All I want is the information on that, you do NOT get to decide what is best for me.

U know what, forget it. Im out. Of course as usual its all idiots who can't understand that not everyone can own a dozen weapons.

Also don't seem to understand the idea of a go-to weapon that you always have access to no matter where you are.

You figure people who advocate for the 2nd amendment would understand such a concept but no, apparently you live in some sort of fantasy land where the US military didn't just adopt the 6.8x51mm in a 13-in SBR for a very good reason.

THEY LITERALLY DID WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DECIDE ON FOR YEARS.

Cya, Im done talking to 12-year-olds. Next time grow up and either add helpful information or leave. Trolling is for CHILDREN.

 

[Varminterror]

I think you'll find that a short barrel ruins the ballistics of bottleneck cartridges and any small-bore cartridge period. There is no magic. It's physics. When you get to handgun barrel-lengths 10 inches or less, there is a reason that handgun cartridges tend to forgo bottleneck cases and almost invariably go to big-bore (greater than 40 cal) to get more performance. You don't see many hunting handguns in bottleneck cartridges, not even BFR or S&W X-frame where they could fit, because they don't work in short barrels. Even with the Contender or XP-100, they're not popular because they don't work.

This is a REALLY misinformed take on why 50-65,000psi bottleneck cartridges are not common in specialty pistols and handguns.

We have a user on this forum with a 375 H&H handgun, and a 375 Cheytac handgun… I have had 300wsm as my largest specialty pistol. No, Contenders were not strong enough for these high pressure rounds. No, high pressure bottleneck cartridges don’t work well for revolvers because of case thrust.

But they “work” just fine in short barrels.

 

[MechaDragon]

Maybe because all of your arguments are regurgitated “facts” from people whose main goal is to drive clicks and engagement and justify the minute differences between guns of various calibers? The arguments that civilians shouldn’t use rifles for defense and that the new military rifle/cartridge is just too powerful for civilians are ridiculous.

There are a number of things you’ve said in this thread that are just far enough away from what is actually right that it shows you don’t truly understand what you’re discussing.

My recommendation is to learn more, regurgitate less. You’ve obviously drank the cool aid on this. Go buy a 6.5 Grendel, learn how to shoot it, and then compare what you can do to what a good shooter can do with a 5.56 AR and tell us where the differences are. I guarantee they will be smaller than what you expect outside of a few small operational windows, and if you’re honest you’ll agree that those small windows are better served by a different weapon anyway.




Where did you get this info? One of the selling points for .300 Blk is that there’s no difference in the gun between one using subs vs supers.


It makes sense once you learn about terminal ballistics and what actually happens when people are shot. There is a significant difference in effectiveness between a pistol round and a rifle round.

The majority of pistol “stops” are psychological. People think “oh, I’ve been shot, I must fall down” or some sort of “hey, I’ve been shot, maybe I should stop doing what I was doing and go somewhere else”. Outside of a legit CNS hit, you’re not actually forcing a situation where the bad guy can’t physically continue. Something like 80% of pistol wounds are survivable given adequate and reasonably timely medical treatment.

Yes, pistols can be effective and are used as carry guns, but that’s mostly because they are easier to carry (and hide) than a rifle. Anybody who knows they’re going into a fight and has a choice is carrying a rifle.

They ARE facts, Ive seen defensive shootings, you can look them up.

Ive seen ballistic gel tests, you can look those up.

Can I ever try it for myself? No, Im not gonna go out and shoot some guy to prove a point.

I never said it had to be a kill for defense. INCAPACITATE, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF THE TERM?

OMG, such children who have clearly drank the 300BLK kool-aid. You clearly have it worse than I do.

 

[MechaDragon]

Why do you presume that a majority of 300BLK builds are for subsonics? Me thinks you project too much. I guarantee more supersonic 300BLK is purchased and shot than subs.


Yeah 25% if that’s correct is a good bump, but it’s still a 9mm pistol round. Not even in the same realm of performance than a 110gr .308 traveling at 2250fps out of an 10” 300 BLK.


There you go again saying most people. How do you know this? My HD firearm is a suppressed 10” 300BLK, and you know what’s loaded in the magazine? 30 rounds of 115gr Lehigh Defense Controlled Chaos rounds. Not subs.

Duh, I know 9mm isn't as powerful as 300BLK. It doesn't need to be to incapacitate a bad guy. 9mm has served this country for generations.

As for the most people thing - literally go look up threads all over the Internet discussing 300BLK. "Should I get a 300BLK?" "Well what do you want to do with it, its all about the Subsonics with a Supressor thats what it was designed for"

And so on and so forth. At most, 1 in 50 discussions regarding 300 BLK potential builds ask for it as a general-purpose rifle with supersonic loads.

Eh, what do I care. Im just going to start a new thread that focuses on 6.5G vs 6mm ARC anyways. This thread is dead to me at this point and I pretty much don't care what anyone has to say anymore.