Topic Dead

[MechaDragon]

5.56x45 has never been more than half what Grendel was at the same time. There has never been anything like parity in their cost. The scale of 5.56x45 production has always dwarfed 6.5 Grendel, and the only way 7.62x39 was ever as cheap as 5.56x45 was because of cheap steel-cased ammo imported from countries in economic shambles. Those countries never produced 65 Grendel.


You don't handload do you? It seems like you're just running a keyboard writing about this mythical SBR in your imagination, but you have no experience with SBR's in any chambering, no experience with handloading 6.5 Grendel or any other AR intermediate cartridge, and I doubt that you even have any substantial experience with a standard AR in the most common barrel length and chambering.

If you want an SBR in an unusual chambering, they're built using custom barrels. What's "offered" doesn't matter. You can't expect to get the best performance without handloading. Factory ammunition isn't going to be suited to short barrels. It will be produced with powder and bullets optimized for the great majority of non-NFA item consumers that are shooting them at higher velocity than will ever come out of an SBR.

You would be so much better off getting experience with a 16" AR in 5.56x45 than wishing for the world to make something different more popular. If you want an SBR, get one without trying to re-invent the wheel. You'll have enough to do just to acquire a regular one without unicorn features. Start handloading. Get those three things together and you'll know a lot more than you do now and you'll be able to make a lot better decision about what's really needed.

Did I ever claim I had any real world experience with them? No, I'm doing this research because I'm interested in the cartridge.

I love how people like to tout about real world experience when there's no possible way to have real world experience before buying the gun.

So I have to do as much research as humanly possible to make the correct decision.

I have experience shooting a fair number of calibers through a fair number of platforms but they are all pretty much standard length 16-in barrels when it comes to rifles that my friends own.

If I knew of somebody who had a 6.5G that I could try out I would absolutely do so, however I do not have that opportunity.

And that doesn't mean that I can't learn a lot about it without using it. That's what research is for. That's why experts test things and chart data. So you can learn about something, before you buy it.

I thought that was self-explanatory, But it seems I was wrong and it needed to be explained.

Here you go, the chart between 6.5G and 300BO is in this video. Have fun learning that literally everything I have said here is FACT, not just an opinion.

The opinion is that because of these facts, it should be more popular - THAT is my OPINION.

6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Review & Comparison

0:00 Intro1:54 6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Cartridge History & Development10:17 Cartridge Sizes 12:53 Trajectory & Kinetic Energy16:15 Wind Deflection16:36 R...

youtu.be

 

[MechaDragon]

I am trying to remember but I believe AAC 110 gr Vmax did 2450 from my 14" 300 blk so no you don't need a 16" barrel for that.

Thats pretty good man, nice

 

[Hookeye]

A Ruger #1 RSI or A model in 6.5 Grendel would be cool.

 

[CraigC]

6.5 Grendel wipes the floor with 300BLK.

Agree in general about the 6.5 but I don't think anyone needs to crap on the .300 to espouse it. They are different tools for different jobs. No need to inject them into some inanimate object pissing contest.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

USMC was very close to adopting 6.8 SPC but delayed because the Army informed them the 5.56x45 green bullet project was nearing completion, which ultimately became M855A1 EPR.

6.8 SPC was designed to be fired from the 18" bbl Mk12 SPR. It split the difference between the 6.5 bullet's accuracy and the 7mm bullet's increased terminal effects. It was designed to be effective from 0-500 meters, and it's performance was about 80% of 7.62x51.

 

[Telekinesis]

To me, the baffling thing is that there aren't more AK's in Grendel. I mean, it's basically an AK round necked down to 6.5mm and blown out so there's no taper. It's not the thing to improve the AK for what the AK is good at, but it could conceivably expand the AK's repertoire to things one doesn't presently imagine.

I’ve wondered this as well. I know there are a few 6.5 Grendel AKs out there but they’re not a normally available setup.

The biggest issue I see is that, as you mentioned, the case has been blown out and there is very little case taper. One of the things that makes an AK as reliable as it is, is the tapered case and how it improves feeding. Additionally with a straight (ish) wall case, you can’t use 7.62x39 mags, and you actually have less taper than a 5.45x39 so those are questionable too.

So instead of using any of the reliable x39 mags, you might be stuck using .223 AK mags which do not have the best reputation for reliability. Plus you also have the same issues present that require ARs to use different mags for 6.5 Grendel, so ideally you’d be looking at a completely new mag design.

On the AK internals side, you’re matching up .223 or 5.45 parts with 7.62 parts. Of course it can be done, but it’s just one more thing to sort out when you build the gun.

The final piece is that a lot of people look at an AK as an inaccurate, but cheap to shoot gun and don’t want to spend the money to buy good accurate ammo for it. Personally I think a lot of the “AKs can’t be accurate” talk is ammo quality related. On average the AKs I feed with bulk ammo are just as accurate as the ARs I feed with bulk ammo (2 MOA).



A bit off topic, but I have a personal goal to (eventually) design and build an accuratized AK (just for my personal benefit, not something I’d be trying to market or sell).

I started down the “why not just use 6.5 Grendel” path and hit the above issues. I think the trick would be to get a barrel chambered and profiled for accuracy, with a heavier contour than a normal AK, and to either do a 7.62x39 chamber with a .308 bore, appropriate twist rate, and handload with good quality, high BC bullets, or option B would be to go with a wildcat like 6mm Beggs (a .220 Russian necked up to 6mm, but it retains the case taper).

 

[Shawn Dodson]

I chose 300 BLK to assemble an 8.5" AR pistol for road trips and CCW. It's equipped with a LAW folding adapter and I keep it in a small rucksack. I currently load it with Hornady 111gr Monoflex.

 

[MechaDragon]

Agree in general about the 6.5 but I don't think anyone needs to crap on the .300 to espouse it. They are different tools for different jobs. No need to inject them into some inanimate object pissing contest.

Well, earlier in the comments I was actually discussing the benefits of 300 Blackout. Context is everything. 300 Blackout is absolutely fantastic for what the military wanted. With subsonic ammunition and a suppressor, 300 Blackout is the most effective whisper quiet weapon system ever made.

But 6.5 Grendel does wipe the floor with 300 blackout when it comes to being a more general-purpose round and being effective and longer ranges.

By the way, I am also somewhat interested in 6mm ARC. My biggest issue with ARC is just how expensive the ammunition is. However, ARC is just now starting to become popular because let's be honest, it's only been widely available and shown on YouTube for about the past year or so.

I don't need a whisper quiet rifle that can fire a stupid heavy lump of lead out to 100 to 200 yards. I need a more general purpose cartridge that can reach out to decent ranges while also remaining in a compact, lightweight weapon system that has a shorter barrel so I can throw it into a backpack.

To be honest, 300 Blackout doesn't really make a whole lot of sense for the civilian market in general because the subsonic rounds are so heavy that they tend to easily pass through a single human and will continue traveling through the wall behind him. This is obviously not a problem for the military, but it IS A SERIOUS PROBLEM for a civilian trying to defend their home.

And because of that serious problem with overpenetration, I recommend a 9 mm PCC with a somewhat longer barrel than a handgun if you want a more capable, two-handed weapon system to defend your home with. 9 mm suppresses just as well as 300 blackout, there are a bunch of subsonic loads out there in 9 mm with much cheaper ammunition and because the round isn't so heavy and so powerful, there is very little risk of overpenetration when you use the correct defensive load.

Your house isn't 100 yd long, it's not even 50 yards long, not even 25 yards in most cases. Therefore, in the real world you simply do not need 300 Blackout and any given capacity as a civilian. It is a fantastic military round and a huge innovation for the military and cover operations and I would never try to undermine it's brilliance at what it's supposed to do. But again, as a general purpose cartridge with faster supersonic loads, just about any other cartridge is a better option.

So for me personally, I will certainly be picking up a 9 mm PCC for home defense and also because let's be honest, 9 mm PCCs are a bunch of fun at the range and the ammo is in pricey so it's a win-win.

As for my go-to rifle cartridge, that is 100% between 6.5 Grendel and 6 mm ARC in terms of performance. However, again I need said rifle to be compact, lightweight, and fit into a backpack while still delivering high performance out to at least medium ranges.

The reason I prefer 6.5 Grendel is because the ammunition is about 40% cheaper while still having enough performance to do the job. Also, at one point 6.5 Grendel was about the same price or only slightly more expensive than 556 NATO. And I'm hoping that one day the ammunition will return to that kind of price. However, if 6 mm ARC becomes just as popular and the ammunition gets to be about the same price as 6.5 Grendel, then I would probably prefer 6 mm ARC for its superior ballistic coefficient which means I should get more performance out of 6 mm ARC from the same, short 11.5-in barrel then what is possible from 6.5 Grendel out of the same length barrel.

It is important to consider ammunition cost when it comes to your go-to rifle because it's very important that you practice with said rifle. If I have to spend $100 on ammunition every single time I go to the range, then I will only be able to go to the range once every 2 weeks to a month. With cheaper ammunition like 556, I could easily afford to shoot 100 rounds every single week.

 

[MechaDragon]

I chose 300 BLK to assemble an 8.5" AR pistol for road trips and CCW. It's equipped with a LAW folding adapter and I keep it in a small rucksack. I currently load it with Hornady 111gr Monoflex.

Now see your use case kind of reflects what I want to do with my rifle, except I also need it to be a little more capable at a longer range for a little bit of hunting against medium game such as typical deer.

And for that very reason, unfortunately 300 Blackout just doesn't have the performance I require.

 

[Hookeye]

IMHO if you're gonna deer hunt you'll want a 16" bbl minimum.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Now see your use case kind of reflects what I want to do with my rifle, except I also need it to be a little more capable at a longer range for a little bit of hunting against medium game such as typical deer.

And for that very reason, unfortunately 300 Blackout just doesn't have the performance I require.

I just wanted something to reach out to about 125 yds and easier to shoot more accurately than my G19.

 

[westernrover]

Did I ever claim I had any real world experience with them? No, I'm doing this research because I'm interested in the cartridge.

I love how people like to tout about real world experience when there's no possible way to have real world experience before buying the gun.

So I have to do as much research as humanly possible to make the correct decision.

I have experience shooting a fair number of calibers through a fair number of platforms but they are all pretty much standard length 16-in barrels when it comes to rifles that my friends own.

If I knew of somebody who had a 6.5G that I could try out I would absolutely do so, however I do not have that opportunity.

And that doesn't mean that I can't learn a lot about it without using it. That's what research is for. That's why experts test things and chart data. So you can learn about something, before you buy it.

I thought that was self-explanatory, But it seems I was wrong and it needed to be explained.

Here you go, the chart between 6.5G and 300BO is in this video. Have fun learning that literally everything I have said here is FACT, not just an opinion.

The opinion is that because of these facts, it should be more popular - THAT is my OPINION.

6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Review & Comparison

0:00 Intro1:54 6.5 Grendel vs 300 Blackout Cartridge History & Development10:17 Cartridge Sizes 12:53 Trajectory & Kinetic Energy16:15 Wind Deflection16:36 R...

youtu.be

My point is that you have charts, and tables, and data from internet sources, but you haven't tried it yourself. The internet specs will only go so far and when you get your own experience, you'll find that not everything on the internet is as factual as the internet would have you to believe. I'm not blaming you for not having enough personal experience. All of us begin with none. What I'm saying is that your own experience is going to contradict the facts you believe from the internet. You're going to get a rifle chambered in such and such because the charts say it's 200 fps faster than so and so. When you actually get it and use a chronograph on your particular rifle, the data won't line up with what you read. Maybe the data was factual in someone else's rifle, or maybe it was inflated. Maybe you believe internet rumor about such and such cartridge's terminal performance, and if that makes you feel better, ok, but if you were to go ahead and actually use it deer hunting yourself instead of just reading rhetoric on a hunting forum or watching Youtube Jello tests, you might find that your mileage varies there also. Maybe that cartridge you were told sucks actually works the same or better than anything else. Maybe the one you were told was the bee's knees turns out to fail your expectations. Maybe you find out that internet expectations were lower than yours.

There are reasons that in the real world, some cartridges are more popular than others. One of the real-world facts is that the differences between cartridges is often just inflated hype. Sometimes it's hype that makes a cartridge popular, and other times it's reality. As long as the only thing you're taking in is hype and rhetoric and conjecture, your opinions can only be based on that.

I don't blame you for not having a lot of real world experience. I have only a little myself. For example, last year, I bought my first 5.56x45 rifle and started to shoot and reload for it. I managed to accumulate a few thousand rounds for it and components to load a few thousand more. Because it has a particular twist rate, 1:9", I've focused only on a couple bullet weights, 55 grain and 62 grain. I've tried four different powders and two primers. I have a chronograph and I can shoot any distance I want to. I've learned a lot more about 5.56x45 than I ever knew just reading about it, but I've hardly scratched the surface of what there is to know. What I know, is how much more I know than I did when all I knew is what I read.

 

[CraigC]

Therefore, in the real world you simply do not need 300 Blackout and any given capacity as a civilian.

Speak for yourself. I have four Grendels and four .300's and find 'need' and purpose in all of them.

 

[MechaDragon]

Speak for yourself. I have four Grendels and four .300's and find 'need' and purpose in all of them.

I mean if you only need 125 to 150 yards effective range from a short barrel with supersonic rounds to take medium game with, then I suppose it's perfectly reasonable and with the ammo so much cheaper because it's becoming more widely adopted very quickly, I can't really blame you on that front either. Ammunition cost is definitely a significant factor, especially for myself.

 

[MechaDragon]

My point is that you have charts, and tables, and data from internet sources, but you haven't tried it yourself. The internet specs will only go so far and when you get your own experience, you'll find that not everything on the internet is as factual as the internet would have you to believe. I'm not blaming you for not having enough personal experience. All of us begin with none. What I'm saying is that your own experience is going to contradict the facts you believe from the internet. You're going to get a rifle chambered in such and such because the charts say it's 200 fps faster than so and so. When you actually get it and use a chronograph on your particular rifle, the data won't line up with what you read. Maybe the data was factual in someone else's rifle, or maybe it was inflated. Maybe you believe internet rumor about such and such cartridge's terminal performance, and if that makes you feel better, ok, but if you were to go ahead and actually use it deer hunting yourself instead of just reading rhetoric on a hunting forum or watching Youtube Jello tests, you might find that your mileage varies there also. Maybe that cartridge you were told sucks actually works the same or better than anything else. Maybe the one you were told was the bee's knees turns out to fail your expectations. Maybe you find out that internet expectations were lower than yours.

There are reasons that in the real world, some cartridges are more popular than others. One of the real-world facts is that the differences between cartridges is often just inflated hype. Sometimes it's hype that makes a cartridge popular, and other times it's reality. As long as the only thing you're taking in is hype and rhetoric and conjecture, your opinions can only be based on that.

I don't blame you for not having a lot of real world experience. I have only a little myself. For example, last year, I bought my first 5.56x45 rifle and started to shoot and reload for it. I managed to accumulate a few thousand rounds for it and components to load a few thousand more. Because it has a particular twist rate, 1:9", I've focused only on a couple bullet weights, 55 grain and 62 grain. I've tried four different powders and two primers. I have a chronograph and I can shoot any distance I want to. I've learned a lot more about 5.56x45 than I ever knew just reading about it, but I've hardly scratched the surface of what there is to know. What I know, is how much more I know than I did when all I knew is what I read.

Well here's the thing, I may not have much experience at all at owning many rifles for myself, but I have plenty of experience shooting the most common calibers thanks to friends who own those rifles. I've shot everything from 22 long rifle to 9 mm to 10 mm to 556 to 762 to 308 as well as the typical 12 and 410 gauge shotguns. I might have shot a 30-06 Hunting rifle at one point, not at animals just at the range. I can't remember because not only was it a long time ago and I believe I was barely 16 or 17 years old, but also back then my knowledge of firearms was basically zero. I definitely remember I was even younger when I first shot my first 12 gauge shotgun and my sister and her friend that she brought along who owned the shotgun played the classic prank on me as a kid who knew nothing about guns and didn't tell me to brace myself and it knocked me on my ass lol.

However, one big piece of experience that I have never had is shooting a rifle caliber from a barrel shorter than 16 in. Nobody I personally know has an SBR. So when it comes to that aspect, the only thing I can't even go on is ballistics charts, data gathered from experts, and watching hours upon hours of YouTube to see first hand just how it shoots or is close to first hand as I can get. I guess you would call that second hand, but at least these experts and reviewers are good about going into details such as how much recoil a certain gun has, how flat the round fires as long as you can find a video with longer range shooting, and at least they're overall thoughts as to who the rifle is for and who it would suit.

I particularly enjoy demonstrations by this guy who has a scope camera so you can see first hand what it's like to shoot at many different ranges:

6mm arc barrel length compare- 14.5” vs 18”

Sure a longer barrel gets more velocity but what does that actually mean for real world down range performance? Let's take a side by side look at how an 18" ...

youtu.be

This is as close as you can possibly get to real world experience without actual real-world experience. This guy's actually incredibly talented as well and is an absolute great shooter with pretty much any cartridge at any range that is even physically possible.

 

[P Flados]

The advantage of faster burning powders is that the projectile can accelerate closer to maximum velocity out of a shorter barrel therefore giving you a more compact weapon with a capability closer to a full size weapon.

Your discussion of burn rate is essentially meaningless and it undermines any confidence one would place in other statements you make.

All cartridges typically have a handful of powders that have "near optimum" burn rates and densities that allow for maximizing velocity for a given barrel length while staying below the SAAMI MAP. The only "silver bullet" to "better performance" when discussing powders is a higher MAP. And both the 30 Rem and the 6.8 SPC at 55,000 psi are better in this regard than either the 6 ARC or the 6.5 G at 52,000 psi.

Higher allowed MAP also helps with retaining good performance in shorter barrels. And if you want optimum cartridges for long range shooting from shorter barrels, just look to the segment of the Specialty Pistol crowd that focus on precision shooting at longer ranges. If any of these guys use the 6.5 G it would surprise the heck out of me.

I like the AR-15 platform. On paper, I like the 6.5 G. However, I have never come close to getting one as I do not hunt anymore and I would rather shoot cast bullets if at all possible. Because of the desire to use cast, my preferred "hunting capable" AR-15 platform gun is 35 caliber.

 

[MechaDragon]

Your discussion of burn rate is essentially meaningless and it undermines any confidence one would place in other statements you make.

All cartridges typically have a handful of powders that have "near optimum" burn rates and densities that allow for maximizing velocity while staying below the SAAMI MAP. The only "silver bullet" to "better performance" when discussing powders is a higher MAP. And both the 30 Rem and the 6.8 SPC at 55,000 psi are better in this regard than either the 6 ARC or the 6.5 G at 52,000 psi.

Higher allowed MAP also helps with retaining good performance in shorter barrels. And if you want optimum cartridges for long range shooting from shorter barrels, just look to the segment of the Specialty Pistol crowd that focus on precision shooting at longer ranges. If any of these guys use the 6.5 G it would surprise the heck out of me.

I like the AR-15 platform. On paper, I like the 6.5 G. However, I have never come close to getting one as I do not hunt anymore and I would rather shoot cast bullets if at all possible. Because of the desire to use cast, my preferred "hunting capable" AR-15 platform gun is 35 caliber.

There are definitely faster burning powders out there. Otherwise why would there be so many options when it comes to gunpowder selection? If a single powder burned at optimal rate then everybody would use that one powder and nobody would choose anything else.

Additionally while I actually just learn this term now as in a few minutes ago I've always known that a longer casing to bullet ratio means it needs a longer barrel to be more efficient. As it turns out, The term for what I'm trying to describe is if a cartridge is "more over bore". This also has to do with how fat the projectile is in comparison to how fat the casing is.

So basically, because 6 ARC has a slightly larger casing-to-projectile ratio, the velocity drops off a bit more steeply than 6.5 Grendel as you cut down the barrel length. So 6 ARC loses more FPS per barrel inch lost than 6.5G does. The question is where does that drop off overlap? There isn't much information available on this topic.

However, what is known is that 6 ARC has a bit better ballistic coefficient so 6 ARC vs 6.5G in a longer barrel - say 18 inches, and then 6 ARC just flat-out wins.

Take a look at the picture below and you will understand what I mean by "over bore" And why is such a thing would effect which cartridge is better suited to shorter barrels. A heavier projectile basically holds the powder back for longer meaning more of it can get burt and used before the projectile exits the barrel. So a larger, heavier bullet in a smaller, shorter casing equals more efficiency in a shorter barrel. This pretty much explains in itself why 300 Blackout, while not as capable overall, is known to burn all the powder in the first 9 inches of barrel. This isn't strictly 100% true with all loads, and a longer barrel can still benefit by letting expanding gasses push the projectile for longer Even if the powder is already used up. However, This is the average burn rate for 300 Blackout between supersonic and subsonic ammunition - 9". If you want a 300 Blackout to be better with supersonic ammunition but still be an SBR, then go 12.5" barrel. If you want the lightest and most compact weapon system possible built ONLY for subsonic 300 Blackout, then go Sig Rattler 5.5".

Then, once the projectile exits the barrel the most important thing is ballistic coefficient. And what many people want to know right now is where 6mm ARC and 6.5 Grendel cross paths on this data. At what length barrel does 6 ARC become better? At what length does Grendel become better? That is the big question many people want to know the answer to, and unfortunately it doesn't look like anyone has a definitive answer at this time.

I do have ever have my own sneaking suspicion about that. Think about it, Alexander designed the 6.5 Grendel and when it comes to a pistol, their upper size is 11.5". It would make an awful lot of sense if that length was chosen because that's pretty much right at the point where all of the powder is burnt or 95% of it. Again, thanks to expanding gases even after the powder is burnt, Grendel still gains muzzle velocity with a longer barrel, but you get what Im trying to say. That's a complete and utter guess but he either chose the length for that reason or simply because it's kind of a middle length that a lot of people like in an SBR. Alexander is an extremely smart and talented man to have come up with 6.5 Grendel and so I would hope he would have chose 11.5" as the pistol length for a more important reason than "it looks cool".

If this suspicion/theory turns out to be true, then what it would mean is 6.5 Grendel is the superior cartridge in barrels up to 12.0" long. At 12.5-13.0" or longer, 6mm ARC would then take over as the superior cartridge. And that just makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it? Unfortunately there is no way for me to prove or disprove this theory at this time.

 

[Savage30L]

I am grateful that I live in a country where we can hold discussions like this. Imagine living in a place where the topic of discussion would be, ....if only I could acquire a gun!.....

...and, imagine, what such people think, if they are able to access our discussion here....

 

[Hookeye]

Ammunition cost is no big deal IMHO
One can practice with less expensive cartridges.

Hunting........aint exactly cheap, esp if starting out.
Just gas and missed work (esp if lost overtime).........adds up.
Aint even talkin about other gear needed.

 

[Hookeye]

If one is really wanting BC advantages, my guess they won't be running a 6.5 Grendel or using an AR platform.

Personally I think the 6.5 Grendel just looks cool, and would be fine w .250 Savage performance on deer.

 

[dogkinkead]

A lot of people think 300BLK is the way to go if you want to build a general-purpose SBR thats kinda good at everything and yet a master of nothing. But they are completely wrong.

The real answer: is 6.5 Grendel. And Ill explain why.

6.5 Grendel is way more versatile than 300 BLK. The one thing BLK has over Grendel is the fact that subsonic rounds are easily and readily available and its a bit more quiet. This is true, but subsonic BLK is useless at anything other than close-range defense.

Grendel outperforms BLK at ANY other scenario. This is because 6.5 Grendel is more efficient with a slightly smaller projectile and longer casing with more gun powder behind it.

As a result, Grendel has more muzzle energy from the same barrel length and the projectile is so much more aerodynamic (Higher BC) that it carries its energy much further down range as well.

Because of this, its more efficient than 300BLK with shorter barrels. While you can get 2400 FPS from a 110gr BLK, it requires a 16" barrel to do so. Meanwhile, with Grendel you get the same velocity with a 115gr projectile from a 12" barrel.

6.5 Grendel is also designed to burn pretty much all of its powder in the first 11-12" of barrel and so while not quite as fast-burning as 300BLK, you get a FAR MORE CAPABLE weapon system in a package the same size as a lot of 300BLK builds. Its not like a 12.5" rifle is large, its still VERY compact.

Grendel is so much more efficient than 300BLK that when firing 110gr of each cartridge from both calibers with 16" barrels, Grendel has DOUBLE the energy remaining at 300 yards from the shooter.

According to a ballistic chart looking into the matter - Grendel 115gr has muzzle velocity of 2,590 FPS and an energy of 1,713 ft-lbs and still has 995 ft-lbs after 300 yards with a drop of 9.8", then has 670 ft-lbs left at 500 yards with a drop of 58.1".

300BLK doesn't even come CLOSE. 110gr fired from the same barrel length has a muzzle velocity of 2,350 FPS and an energy of 1,349 ft-lbs. At 300 yards the BLK has dropped to 625 ft-lbs and has dropped by 13.8". At 500 yards the round is basically useless at 369 ft-lb remaining and having dropped a full 86.5".

So with 6.5 Grendel, you can build a backpack gun/SBR with a 10-12" barrel and its actually fully EFFECTIVE at taking medium sized game with an ethical kill out to 250 yards. 300BLK with the same barrel length has a absolute maximum humane kill range of 150 yards with the correct ammunition.

So there you have it. 300 BLK is better at suppression but there are subsonic 6.5 Grendel loads available, its just 300BLK is ever so slightly better at it. But then 300BLK gets owned at literally every other scenario.

I understand that 300BLK is popular for the suppression but you can suppress a 9mm PCC/Sub-Gun as well and have a MUCH lower chance of over-penetrarion.

So, if you really want the "One Rifle That Does it All" or gets as close as possible while also being compact - your only real choice is 6.5 Grendel. 300BLK supersonics just don't have the range when fired from a short barrel and they drop too quickly as well. Meanwhile, I bet anyone could hit steel at 500 yards with a 6.5 Grendel SBR after some practice. After all, we have already seen people reach out to 700 yards with supersonic 300BLK from a 9" barrel, theres just so much drop he was literally off the scope mil markings and had to adjust the scope turrets.

My ONLY gripe with 6.5 Grendel is the price of ammunition. You won't find even cheap stuff under 80 cents per round. Thats basically robbery considering that like 300BLK, the round was also introduced as a possible replacement for 9mm SMGs in the military as an effective CQB cartridge that still functions in the AR Platform. If the inventor of 6.5 Grendel hadn't been dumb enough to patent the design at first, the military may very well have adopted it over 300BLK considering it can also be suppressed quite well with subsonic rounds available.

View attachment 1194465

I agree, put an Alexander Arms upper on a AR platform and it is fantastic. When I get tired of searching for the brass a CZ is a pretty good choice.

 

[MechaDragon]

I disagree with your premise because defending yourself at 300 yards with your SBR as a civilian in the United States is so incredibly unlikely as to be basically a fantasy. I would say the majority of people that see 300 blackout as a good defensive option are thinking in the context of inside their home, perhaps the length of their front yard. In that context the only thing 6.5 grendel gives you is more recoil, more sight disruption, more blast, less magazine capacity for a given length, and less reliable feeding and extraction. No thanks, I'm good.

I suppose if I really needed to try to find a cartridge that I needed to defend my family with AND go deer hunting with at more than 200 yards I could see some merit to the grendel over 300 blackout, but I don't need to have just one rifle for both. Even if I did have some desire to do both with one rifle I wouldn't pick either of them.

But that's the thing, I don't want 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC for home defense. I don't want 300BLK SubSonic either, all because each and every one of these cartridges all have very high risk of over-penetrarion and I live in a city.

So for home defense, my choice is either the Stribog SP9-A3G 8" or CZ Scorpion 7.75" edition. Both are 9mm PCCs, both have barrel lengths where most 9mm cartridges max out in efficiency and then its diminishing returns. Both are two-handed, braced weapons with much more stability and capability than a 9mm Handgun, both have high-capacity magazines available, both get as quiet as 300BLK Subsonic with similar loads, and both will stop a bad guy in his tracks with a single well-placed shot using the correct defensive load - but without over-penetrarion.

So basically, a CZ Scorpion has the same defensive capability as a 300BLK in a realistic home defense scenario at very close range, but has none of the drawbacks of 300BLK, and are are ton of fun to shoot at the range with way more affordable ammunition.

So why would I want 300BLK? Why is it better than a 9mm PCC as a civilian's home defense gun? 9mm can have effective kill range up to 100 yards with the correct load from an 8" barrel, and is very easy to land accurate shots on steel at 200-250 yards, so why should I care about 300BLK as a civilian who is defending his home and doesn't need or even want the extra penetration offered by 300BLK 220-Grain Subsonic?

I bet you can't really answer that question, now can you? You yourself said I would never use 6.5G at range except that I will because 6.5G in the official Alexander Arms 11.5" upper is capable of an ethical kill on deer at 250-300 yards, so its a fairly capable hunting cartridge in a short, small firearm package. One of the very best "General-Purpose SBR" cartridges planet Earth has to offer, only being contested by either 6mm ARC or a larger caliber in a larger AR-10-ish platform.

 

[MechaDragon]

If one is really wanting BC advantages, my guess they won't be running a 6.5 Grendel or using an AR platform.

Personally I think the 6.5 Grendel just looks cool, and would be fine w .250 Savage performance on deer.

True, the best BC is of course had from a Bolt-Action and that is why they are used in long-range competition.

Bug again, what Im looking for is a Semi-Automatic, fighting-capable CQB/SBR rifle that is lightweight and fits into a backpack, that also just so happens to have a high enough ballistic coefficient to hunt with. My go-to rifle that can do mostly anything no matter how good or bad the situation is.

And in walks 6.5G and 6mm ARC to the rescue - problem solved.

 

[MEHavey]

In a nutshell...
6.5 Grendel is the quarter horse of AR-15 actions

 

[MechaDragon]

1. I don't think the chance of restrictions on the "pistol brace" gimmick is over.
2. I don't want a "pistol brace" or, for that matter, a real SBR, but that is a matter of choice and application, it's your money.

Actually, it IS basically over. The ATF got pushed back so hard that they can't realistically recover. They could always try again in a few years like they have historically attempted, but its over for now.

I forget the legal term, but a notice has gone out from the Supreme Court that all US citizens can now bear firearms with pistol braces having a barrel under 16" and can NOT legally be pursued by the ATF/forced to register.

The ATFs argument for the rule has basically been declared "Invalid" by the Supreme Court at this point in time.

See this video below. Trust me, your brain will hurt and suffer if you don't care for extremely fast speaking or you don't understand legal terms, but he gets the point across regardless.

This channel is basically centered around 2nd Amendment legal news, its what he does and wow, is he good at it...

BREAKING!!! Supreme Court 6-3 Decision Used To Strike Down Suppressor & NFA Tax Restriction Claims!

In this video I break down the current efforts to remove NFA and ATF restrictions on suppressors.1stPhorm: www.1stPhorm.com/armedscholar🎥 Follow Me On Other...

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Ah, so thats the term - "Nationwide Injuction" - it basically means we are all protected from the ATF over pistol braces.

Oh crap, looks like there was an update just yesterday and ya, the rule is 100% dead lol. Better luck next time ATF :

ATF Stripped of Power To Enforce Short Barreled Rifle & Pistol Brace Rule! Now What About NFA Tax?

In this video I break down an important update in the ATF pistol brace lawsuit and the current NFA tax claims being made. 1stPhorm: www.1stPhorm.com/armedsch...

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Now if only we could keep up this momentum and repeal the NFA or better yet - abolish the ATF all together, then that would be ah... Just the best day ever... Because remember kids...



Thats the new Stribog SP10-A3 10mm Auto variant by the way. 10mm - very interesting cartridge, ethical deer kill capable up to 150 yards away, easily rings steel at 300 yards, all from this little 8" PCC.

Who knew the FBI screwed up thinking it would be a good cartridge in a handgun? Nah, in reality its the ULTIMATE PCC cartridge - the MP5 that can down an attacking Grizzly Bear with just a few rounds.

If 10mm training ammunition was about $0.25-$0.30 per round and STAYED there, I would 100% buy the SP10-A3 in a heartbeat. His review of the SP10 isn't scientific at all but its a lot of fun. If you want to see what 10mm can actually do, then go onto YouTube and search "The 10mm AR Is Here" and watch the CMMG Banshee MK10 review by Alabama Arsenal.

Roller Delayed 10MM AUTO: The Perfect PCC? STRIBOG SP10A3

No joke, this gun has been one of my favorites to review. I was a skeptic going into it but the roller delayed action combined with 10mm makes for a near per...

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Interesting fact about 10mm, there is a load called the Civil Defense in 65-Grain. Delivers 2400 FPS velocity from a 5-inch HANDGUN. Don't believe me, well then watch this one, chronographed and everything:

10mm VELOCITY TEST

TESTING OUT THREE DIFFERENT TYPES OF AMMO (FMJ, SELF DEFENSE, AND LIGHT WIGHT AMMO) IN FOUR DIFFERENT BARREL LENGTHS TO SEE WHAT SPEEDS THE 10mm AMMO CAN PRO...

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