HD arsenal to include PCC?

[9mm+]

9mm+: You make a lot of good points, and I can't say I disagree. My preferred long gun to meet trouble with is a WWII US-made Enfield in .303 Brit. Plenty of power and reach, good handling, and a 10-round mag that can be reloaded quickly with chargers. I have total confidence in the Enfield and its cartridge.

Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my family that likes to shoot it. For a recoil-shy person like my wife, a 9mm handgun and/or a PCC would be a worthy choice, depending on the situation.

I may choose a PCC indoors, but if I were working outside after a hurricane or other event, I would have the Enfield or a shotgun within easy reach. For me, the PCC is just another tool in the toolbox. Contrary to the many gunzine articles, there is no "ultimate" defensive firearm, IMHO.

Respectfully,
Dirty Bob

Amen, Dirty Bob. I especially like your last line ("there is no ultimate defensive arm"). There's a lot of truth in that!

Btw, the PCC I'm looking at now is a Suomi 9mm carbine that a local shop has for a good price. It's heavy but very reliable and the price seems very, very good.

 

[Ed Ames]

9mm+,

Exactly right. You bolded the phrase "supply of weapons or munitions". "Supply" is defined as "a stock of a resource from which a person can be provided with necessary amounts of that resource". So an arsenal by definition does not encompass weapons actively being used. Your arsenal is what you have available to carry, not what you are carrying.

PCCs are something everyone should own (have in their arsenal), but only rarely are they the weapon most people should use (have as their on-hand defensive weapon).

As for the usefulness of these threads, I'm happy to count them as useful if they give the participants new-to-them insight. The problem is that, well, there's a quote that fits: "The human mind treats a new idea the way the body treats a strange protein; it rejects it." -- Medawar. Most people have a position on this subject already.

 

[Warp]

I agree with 9mm+

But this seems to be rather off topic and not truly relevant

 

[Outlaw Man]

I paid for the opportunity to shoot a real MP5 at a range in NW Arkansas several years ago. It was a very smooth shooting gun, even at full-auto. It's definitely a gun you could theoretically write your name with, though I'd run out of ammo long before I got finished with my name.

Since then, I've always thought a suppressed, select fire MP5 would make an excellent home defense weapon. I've just yet to find the $30k in unallocated funds to get one, and I sure would have to think hard about potentially subjecting something like that to police custody if the shooting was questionable.

With a semi-auto version, I see little advantage of a similar weapon over other, more common HD weapons.

 

[Dirty Bob]

9mm+: Weight is the main complaint about many PCCs. A blowback semiauto for a high-pressure or big-bore cartridge will usually have a massive bolt. I believe the Suomi is one of the heavier PCCs. I think the Suomi has a high cool factor, though, and if you can find mags, you'll probably enjoy it. It probably makes 9mm feel like a .22 Short.

BTW: The Mech-Tech is one of the few PCC semiautos that uses a telescoping bolt -- a bolt that wraps around the back of the barrel when in battery. The Uzi is another, IIRC. This gives a shorter overall length. My Mech-Tech -- after addition of a recoil pad -- should be under 30" in length.

All my best,
Dirty Bob

 

[Ed Ames]

I agree with 9mm+

But this seems to be rather off topic and not truly relevant

I agree with 9mm+ as well.

As for off topic and truly relevant, I'm not sure what you mean. The man asked if a HD arsenal should include PCCs. I think the answer is yes. Seems on topic to me. I further stipulated that PCCs could also be useful for HD use in limited circumstances. While not strictly on topic that seems very relevant to the topic.

I also think that's an important distinction. Having vs using I mean. A lot of people bash PCCs because they are not the ideal choice in combat. They come at things from what is to me a baffling perspective, which is that ideal choices are always an option. My world doesn't work out that way, and I doubt yours does either. It's important to have choices, and to make choices based on your specific circumstances, rather than some internet-soldier-jock ideal of what HD should be. You are free to disagree of course.

 

[GrOuNd_ZeRo]

Hi-Point makes a fine PCC for HD use in 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP.

I got the 995 9mm and shoots well, the only weakness is the magazines (limited capacity and spotty reliabilty in older model mags)

 

[9mm+]

This is the PCC I finally settled on: a modified KelTec Sub 2K. I put the Red Lion forend on with holographic site and a barrel shroud (to keep from inadvertently grabbing the barrel) and the damn thing now shoots like a dream. The trigger is still very sloppy (you can see my other post on that) and the construction quality is not high, but with the mods that I've done, it accomplishes what I need it to do. Groupings are tight, reliability is high, mobility and weight are superb. It won't be my only PCC because I'm still enamored with the Suomi M31. The Finnish PCC is a heavy beast, but as Dirty Bob said, it has a high cool factor.

 

[hso]

.40 AR upper would put you into the same cal, but on a familiar platform.

BUT

It is difficult to support a pistol caliber carbine since it has none of the merits for range of a 5.56 and none of the merits of 5.56 penetrating building material less than a .40. Yes, I've gone the everything shoots the same caliber using the same mag approach before, but then we ran our own overpenetration tests with common calibers for pistols and carbines and were shocked to see the 55 grain 5.56 having the least penetration of indoor building materials when put up against the 9mm, .40 and .45 pistol/carbine combos.

 

[barnbwt]

The Suomi butt-strokes better than a 40 upper AR (or a Sub2K); could make all the difference

Fun aside, there's a good chance that 100yo gun will deliver better groupings than any modern platform. The weight and extremely good barrel (and its attachment) made the M31 one of the most accurate subguns ever (especially for an open-bolt full auto). Unlike an AR, you can also build a Suomi for ~200$ if you have the tools to do so . You can also afford to burn through more ammo practicing (if ammo prices ever return to commodity levels), and will be able to practice longer before fatigue sets in. 223 is loud; loud guns don't allow for as long of range sessions (and that's not even getting into the much-debated "too loud for indoor use" issue)

There is, however, an extremely cool new MAC-based design out there that takes the various Suomi mags/coffins/drums
http://www.alliancearmament.com/ampsystemmacaccesories.aspx
Yeah, it's not like you'd ever keep an open-bolt MG around for home defense, but the videos are cool . Let's see any modern maker produce drums and hi-cap stick mags that reliable for 50$ and 20$, respectively

TCB

 

[bigfatdave]

My armory includes two PCC's - a Sub2k (glock 19 mags) in 9mm and a Mech-Tech (1911 officer frame) in .45acp

And those are kept ready to go with mags handy.
So is a 20g Mossberg500 and a couple of M1 Carbines, it doesn't take much effort to have stuff in a grab&go configuration, if I ever need a long gun for HD I'll either pick something appropriate or make whatever I do pick work, I don't think the exact details of the hardware are more important than mindset & skillset.
(mindset - skillset - toolset --- in that order! Wise words I shamelessly stole form someone else)

Stock what you like, shoot it enough that you can operate it well under stress and understand what it (and you!) is and isn't capable of.
(rule of thumb, you should be able to run a gun at least as well as you do your old car, knowing where all the controls are without looking, knowing if they worked by feel, etc)

 

[9mm+]

will be able to practice longer before fatigue sets in. 223 is loud; loud guns don't allow for as long of range sessions (and that's not even getting into the much-debated "too loud for indoor use" issue)

I live in city limits and the closest/most-convenience range *won't* allow .223 rounds at all. Pistol caliber only (and rimfire). My EBR's stay at home and don't get much use unless I get the opportunity for some outdoor shooting at my friend's camp. There is a Wake County public range where all calibers are allowed, but it's a pain to use. When I do go there, I always get paired near another .223 shooter and find the noise to be very annoying. It's one thing when I'm pulling the trigger, but it's another when I don't know it's coming.