Thinking through my HD options...

[Skribs]

Disclaimer #1: I know that the potential AWB and the recent shootings are a hot-button issue right now and if they go into place will have an effect on my decision, but I am proceeding through this thread as if things now are the way they will be. Please no "well if they're all banned use a bat" or "if ARs are banned that makes the choice for you" comments, I realize that.

Disclaimer #2: This is more of a thread where I ramble about how I'm thinking, and let you guys comment. I know nobody will have the "one answer to rule them all" to give me. I just figure I'm in a like-minded forum and I'd like to hear opinions.

Background: Currently, I own pistols and shotguns. The pistols are all semi-auto (one pocket pistol, 2 compacts) and one of the compacts is my current bedside weapon. The shotguns are both straight stock, tube-fed, one is autoloader one is pump.

For HD, I believe the order (from best to worst) in terms of HD weapons is Rifle > Shotgun > PCC > Pistol. However, I cannot use rifles at my favorite range (2000 FPS limit for safety reasons). Ranges which let me use rifles within an hour drive have rate of fire limits of 1 round per second. So currently I have shotguns, and am waiting until I can get a better job and afford some land to set up my own private range to get a rifle.

Recently I discovered that I much prefer a pistol grip for HD, although I do not like pistol grips on shotguns (not talking PGO, but pistol grip+stock). I don't have a rifle yet, but I do have an airsoft AR-15 and I found it much more comfortable to hold 1-handed, which would be important for doing things like putting on my BlueTooth or dialing 911. So I'm left with four options.

Options:

1) Just use a pistol for HD. I practice with my handguns more than my shotguns, they're good enough for carry, and they're closest at hand in a HD situation. They are easier to use 1-handed than a rifle, and require less storage space.

2) Keep my current strategy. If I get on the phone before I grab my shotgun, then the 1-handed issue is moot. I have no kids so there is no reason for me to clear my condo.

3) Get a 9mm AR-15. I would be able to practice firing rapidly (which is what I would do in a HD situation) and would get used to the AR platform. It won't have the power of a shotgun, but it would have the ergonomics I want and I could apply the practice better to a 5.56 AR-15 down the road.

4) Get a rifle. Practice with it as best as possible as local ranges will allow, every once in a while take a longer trip to a range that lets me shoot at a practical rate of fire.

So...this is what I'm thinking at this point in time. Honestly leaning away from #4, because I believe I should practice how I'm going to shoot in a real HD situation, and I'm not going to limit myself to 1 round per second. But I can see #s 1-3 as having advantages, especially 1-2 because they would require no additional equipment.

Anyway, just wondering what your guys' thoughts are as to what I should do. Like I said, in theory, I think rifle > shotgun > PCC > pistol, but I'm actually considering the later three.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

My HD plan never included a AR....If I need a long gun, a pump shotgun will be what I grab.

 

[BigJimP]

In my view, home defense is best done with a handgun.../ long guns are clumsy and cumbersome by comparison to a handgun..

A rifle or shotgun have never been part of my HD plan ...although they may have their place if I lived in a rural area where law enforcement response may be 30 min or more...in my area, in a pretty big city/suburb in WA state, law enforcement response is quick.

I train weekly with my handguns..double taps, triple taps, reloads, etc ...and those drills are valid whether I'm carrying or at home. To me, picking a weapon is about what you shoot the best...then pick the right ammo.

I have a lot of rifles and shotguns ( no AR's - no Tactical shotguns ) ...but getting to my safe to get one of those may take a few minutes - but that's ok in my view/if I felt like I needed a long gun for some reason. If you read about scenarios, most of the Defense situations on the street or in the home - are over in just a few seconds.../ so a handgun is the best option in my view...so I disagree with your assumptions.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I think you are well protected with what you currently own and there is no need to get something else. Now, if you want a rifle then by all means get one.

 

[BigJimP]

I think you have to weigh the cost of these options as well ...and like the other response said, if you really want an AR - then buy it....

but in the northern part of King County, WA....the buying frenzy is already out of contol on AR's, mags, ammo, etc.../ and by the time you add optics, or whatever you want on the rifle...you can be easily be up in the $2,000 price range....and if its a weapon you can't really practice with ...how effective are you gong to be with it.

To me - the cost of practicing is also a big deal / that sometimes gets ignored, especially in this buying frenzy going on right now - where maybe a good reloader is a way better way to spend your money right now / and shoot the guns you have more...maybe 3 times more, for the same ammo budget.

I went to a local range yesterday with 4 boxes of 9mm ( my cost is about $6 a box )and 4 boxes of .357 mag ( my cost is about $8 a box )...and got a lot of practice with working on my reload times, double taps, drawing from holster, etc...for about $56..../ so to me, that should be part of your "plan" as well..../ and how will an AR fit into that plan...because we all have budgets too ...

 

[LeonCarr]

If having to grab children and take them to safe place/panic room, handgun.

If already at safe place/panic room and defending in place until LEOs get there, shotgun.

If you live in a really really large house with hallways/rooms longer than 30 yards, switch to slugs in shotgun or rifle.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Skribs]

The cost factors into a bit, Jim, and being able to effectively practice is the reason I'm shying away from an AR for now. Cost is why I'm even leaning towards ignoring the 9mm carbine and sticking with what I have. The carbine is still a shiny option though, because I would train more with it than the 12-gauge, and having similar ammo between the AR and the pistol would mean I only need to buy one kind.

I'm not saying I'll buy something NOW, but just figuring out what to do when I have the cash or if I want to use my current strategy until I can afford some land to practice with a rifle on the way the AR-15 is meant to be shot.

 

[BigJimP]

Sure, I get it .....

I'm in my 60's now ....and its easy for me to make my decisions on how I'd use a gun, or value a gun, or whether its just the latest "shiny" thing that I wanted....- because I have all the guns I want ...( way past what I need - with about 35 handguns, 15 or so shotguns, and about 6 rifles ).

It isn't always about being practical...my last shiny gun I chased, was just last spring - when I ordered a Freedom Arms, 4 3/4" octagonal barrel, large frame, 5 shot - single action revolver..in .357 mag ..made in Wyoming. I knew they were a piece of craftmanship, had fired a few from acquaintances, and decided I needed to add one to my collection.

It isn't practical for anything...its a 53 oz gun ..about 9 oz heavier than a S&W N frame in .357 mag..only 5 shots.../ I think its an amazing gun..but at $ 3,500 more or less....was it a smart choice.../ my wife told me it looked like the "cap pistols" - when we were kids..??? ...yet I like it more, every time I go out and shoot it....is it foolish, not to me.../ but while most of my buddies like it / they'd never buy it ...so I don't know....




this photo has the Freedom Arms, a S&W model 27-2 4" Nickel in .357 mag, a new Henry rifle also .357 mag....( I like them all )...don't shoot cowboy action or anything....they're for fun.../ and my wife thinks I'm nuts ...but she puts up with me.

 

[bannockburn]

I use to think that a 12 ga. pump action shotgun was the best choice for HD. But over the years I moved away from using a shotgun to having something a bit less unwieldy and cumbersome, going with a .38 Special DA revolver, like a S&W Model 10, and a 4 D-cell Mag-Lite flashlight at the ready. This was a good set-up for a number of years until I started thinking that maybe a 9mm pistol with a rail would be better for one-handed operation, leaving my other hand free for my cell phone. Along those lines I currently have a SIG P-229E2 with night sights and a SIG STL-900 laser/light combo, along with a couple of spare mags as my principal HD gun.

 

[Skribs]

Bannock, I got into guns hearing the rhetoric that the 12-ga pump is the best HD weapon. Then I learned that semi-auto 12-ga has the same power advantage but is also simpler to use, so I got the shotgun. Then I started reading on how rifle cartridges do their wounding and on how rifle overpenetration through walls is a myth...and well that's why I want an AR.

 

[BigJimP]

Penetration - is all about the type of bullet / and weight of the bullet ...and velocity .../ but in some scenarios - you do have to take that into account - and whether its a shotgun, rifle or a handgun...may not matter as much as we used to think.

I believed the "tactical shotgun" concept in the 70's and 80's as well ...and we used to think all semi-auto shotguns were not reliable...but that mentality is all out the window now too - especially with shotguns like the Benelli M-4...

But in the end, in my view, it just comes down to personal preference - and what you'll train with often....

 

[Skribs]

You are right, BigJim, but from my research I've found that rifle SD rounds are going to penetrate through less walls than pistol JHPs or 00 buck. Overall the long gun rounds will be relatively similar and pistol rounds will truck through. Keep in mind that JHPs won't expand in drywall so they function pretty much like FMJs.

I know they will all "work" but when it comes to anything I am a min/maxer. When I play a first-person shooter I will find the optimal damage-per-second of the various weapons, and when I play an RPG I literally have several spreadsheets just for one character. I overthink what guns I need as well

 

[BigJimP]

I get it .....its part of the fun of the gun hobby / and why we all spend time on this forum and others ...bsing about guns.

Even though I have all the guns I want ....I still make it a point to go by some of the gun shops in my area most every week ....and a few times a yr, down to Welchers, in your area..../ they run a nice clean shop.../ and mostly I just stop by to see what's new and different.

 

[Inebriated]

Just my thoughts, here... take them for what they're worth...

You have no kids, so you have no reason to leave the room you're in, if there's an HD scenario. I'm guessing that a condo only has one point of entry, no? My advise would be to go to a room, and hunker down with a long gun and a have police on the phone. Being in that room is a big advantage because 1, you know your backstop, and can choose your cartridge accordingly, and 2, you don't have to worry about being able to maneuver around with a long gun. Personally, I'd load up the 12 gauge with #1 or #4 Buckshot. You already have the shotgun, and #1 Buck is a great stopper, but will not penetrate walls/structures quite as much as 00. As for the two-handed thing, get yourself a headset for the phone, or go on speaker phone, or just wedge it between your shoulder and ear... doesn't matter, just have police on the phone, because what happens is going to be recorded, and you'll want that to back you up if you have to defend yourself.

 

[Skribs]

Innebriated you actually just described my strategy. With the exception of the bit about using a shotgun with #1 or #4 buck, that is irrespective of my current hardware. And I do have a cell phone with a headset within hands reach of my bed.

That said, my issue with the shotgun isn't so much the penetration, but rather the fact I don't like pistol gripped shotguns but like a pistol grip. That is the big reason an AR makes sense for me, be it a 9mm or a 5.56. However, the 9mm will be a drop in performance, a 5.56 would be a drop in training, and both would be a drop in my available funds. That is my problem!

 

[chris in va]

I'm a little torn on the issue myself. On one hand using a long gun can be cumbersome while holding a child or phone, but then again more home invasions are done with teams rather than individuals as of late.

I currently keep my 9mm on the nightstand, but may consider having my Mossberg nearby as an option. The AR is locked up but have a 20rd mag loaded next to it.

 

[Teachu2]

If I'm going purely defensive, it's a handgun until I get to the shotgun. 12ga Mossy 500 pump with a 18" bbl, a stock with a handgrip, loaded with #4 buckshot (not #4 birdshot).

If I have the need to clear my house or secure a houseguest, my primary carry is a G30.

My AR is parked behind the Mossy in the rapid response safe. It would be in the wife's hands...

 

[Skribs]

Yep, I feel I'd go for a 20 round instead of 30 round if I got an AR, just like the profile better.

Speaking of, and maybe I should ask in rifle forums, do they make a 20-round 9mm mag for 9mm ARs?

 

[Sapper771]

I recommend using what you feel most comfortable and confident with.

Some will argue that it is unwise to use a pistol when a shotgun or rifle is available. I do agree generally, but each situation is not the same. I have slung my rifle and used a pistol in several situations (Iraq) due to confined spaces. There are situations where long guns are a liability.

I usually go to a carbine when the event allows it. From the research I have seen, a pistol round will generally penetrate more interior walls than a 223/5.56 round. A lot of pros recommend the 223/5.56 carbine over shotguns and pistols due to this.

Get a rifle. Always good to have one around.

YMMV

 

[Inebriated]

Innebriated you actually just described my strategy. With the exception of the bit about using a shotgun with #1 or #4 buck, that is irrespective of my current hardware. And I do have a cell phone with a headset within hands reach of my bed.

That said, my issue with the shotgun isn't so much the penetration, but rather the fact I don't like pistol gripped shotguns but like a pistol grip. That is the big reason an AR makes sense for me, be it a 9mm or a 5.56. However, the 9mm will be a drop in performance, a 5.56 would be a drop in training, and both would be a drop in my available funds. That is my problem!

So why couldn't you configure the shotgun to suit you?

And if you go with an AR, what is your limiting factor? Cost of ammo, or range limitations? If it's range limitations, then by all means, go with what you can practice with. But if it's cost, I'd just like to say that steel cased ammo is only about $0.30/round. That's not more than 9mm. WalMart's 50-round Federal 9mm is going to be $15 OTD here, which is exactly $0.30/round. Now you could make a case for Tula 9mm, but even then, $10/50 is $0.20/round... That's not terribly different.

 

[Skribs]

The problem is I only like shotguns with a straight stock. I feel more comfortable with the recoil when using a straight stock (although maybe it's because I've had better stocks that way) and it doesn't get in the way when loading. I can't configure a shotgun to both have a pistol grip for one-handed use and NOT have a pistol grip for those other reasons.

My problem with a 5.56 is range availability. As said in the OP, my options right now for rifle ranges are either nearby with rate-of-fire limitations or far away with no such restrictions. If I'm getting a 5.56, it's so that I can fire more than 1 round per second, and I want to practice that way.

 

[urbaneruralite]

I live out in the sticks. We're on our own 'til the neighbors join the fight. I don't even consider law enforcement. That seems to be a known factor. We had some LE out once. They stopped at the end of the drive and had the 911 operator ask us to escort them onto the property.

As for choice of weapon, I say fight how you train. Your HD weapon should be the one you have used the most and should be used the way you generally use it. For example, a die hard bird hunter should use a shortened high capacity version of his favorite shotgun.

 

[Skribs]

What I use the most is whatever I practice with for HD. I don't hunt, or do any competition (aside from action competition).

 

[suemarkp]

If you're going to the trouble of having a long gun, I'd get it in a rifle caliber and not 9mm. I don't see much point in pistol caliber long guns othen than your hit probability goes up. But if that's the case, why not use a better cartridge to hit them with.

I only have seen 2 studies of wall penetration. Pistol and rifle generally are both terrible -- penetrates too many walls. There was only one 223 load that penetrated a bit less than 00 buck (55gr Hornady TAP), but that load also didn't penetrate much in ballistic gelatin (8"). If you need to penetrate a person, you're most likely going to penetrate walls too. Smaller buck is better (e.g. #4) but you're most likely going to penetrate at least 2 interior walls with anything you shoot.

 

[Skribs]

But if that's the case, why not use a better cartridge to hit them with.

Because, as stated, my training would suffer with a .223 compared with a 9mm, based on the available local ranges and various rules they allow. I would be able to train better with the 9mm than with the .223.

I should clarify: I've mentioned overpenetration, but only because of the myth that rifles overpenetrate way more than shotguns and handguns, and the fact that that myth has been dispelled. Overpenetration is not too big of a concern where I'm living now, because my backstop is a few of my walls and then woods with such terrain that people won't be there.