skinnyguy
Member
On-camera sensationalism by a couple of dopey cops. That's all there is to that.
Heard on COPS today-
- Thread starter TYY
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rhino210
Member
Facts included but long read
From Wikipedia (I know not exactly a proven source)
" Armor-piercing ammunition is used to penetrate hardened armored targets such as body armor, vehicle armor, concrete, tanks and other defenses, depending on the caliber of the firearms. Armor-piercing ammunition consists of a hardened steel, tungsten-carbide, or depleted uranium penetrator enclosed within a softer material, such as copper or aluminum. Armor-piercing ammunition can range from rifle and pistol caliber rounds all the way up to tank rounds."
"The entire projectile is not normally made of the same material as the penetrator because the physical characteristics that make a good penetrator (tough, hard metal) make the material equally harmful to the barrel of the gun firing the round."
"Contrary to common belief, teflon or other coatings on the bullet do not in themselves help it penetrate deeper. Teflon-coated bullets were meant to help reduce the wear on the barrel as a result of firing hardened projectiles. Teflon coating was a trend that has largely faded, in part because of laws resulting from this misconception. "
I wear a Second Chance level IIIA vest daily. These are the standards set by the Government for each level. (From NIJ Standard 0108.01 at www.eeel.nist.gov/oles/Publications/NIJ-0108.01.pdf )
To be certified as Level IIIA the vest is tested and must meet the standards below.
"5.2.4 Type III-A Test Weapons and Ammunition
5.2.4.1 44 Magnum
The test weapon may be a 44 Magnum handgun or test barrel. The use of a handgun with a 14 to
16 cm (5.5 to 6.25 in) barrel is suggested. Test bullets shall be 44 Magnum, lead semiwadcutter with
gas checks, nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr), and measured velocities of 426 ± 15 m (1400 ± 50 ft)
per second.
5.2.4.2 Submachine Gun (SMG) 9 mm
The test weapon may be a 9 mm SMG or test barrel. The use of a test barrel with a 24 to 26 cm
(9.5 to 10.25 in) barrel is suggested. Test bullets shall be 9 mm full metal jacketed, with nominal
messes of 8.0 g (124 gr) and measured velocities of 426 ± 15 m (1400 ± 50 ft) per second"
Most departments only issue a Level II vest as standard and a lot of officers won't go up to a IIIA because it is more "uncomfortable" i.e. stiffer.
A 30-30 will easily penetrate a Level II and a IIIA vest. And even if it hits at an oblique angle at more than 100yrds and does not penetrate the kevlar, imagine letting a very large angry man with a heavy ballpeen hammer hit you in the chest while you are wearing only a t-shirt (OK and pants
)
The hard shock plate made of titanium (Second Chance), ceramic or hardened steel that is worn over the sternum only helps to soften the "dent" left after the bullet impact over the heart to hopefully keep the heart from stopping. The shock plate does have some ballistic properties but does not cover a very large portion of the chest.
I hope this enlightens someone if the could stand to read all this.
From Wikipedia (I know not exactly a proven source)
" Armor-piercing ammunition is used to penetrate hardened armored targets such as body armor, vehicle armor, concrete, tanks and other defenses, depending on the caliber of the firearms. Armor-piercing ammunition consists of a hardened steel, tungsten-carbide, or depleted uranium penetrator enclosed within a softer material, such as copper or aluminum. Armor-piercing ammunition can range from rifle and pistol caliber rounds all the way up to tank rounds."
"The entire projectile is not normally made of the same material as the penetrator because the physical characteristics that make a good penetrator (tough, hard metal) make the material equally harmful to the barrel of the gun firing the round."
"Contrary to common belief, teflon or other coatings on the bullet do not in themselves help it penetrate deeper. Teflon-coated bullets were meant to help reduce the wear on the barrel as a result of firing hardened projectiles. Teflon coating was a trend that has largely faded, in part because of laws resulting from this misconception. "
I wear a Second Chance level IIIA vest daily. These are the standards set by the Government for each level. (From NIJ Standard 0108.01 at www.eeel.nist.gov/oles/Publications/NIJ-0108.01.pdf )
To be certified as Level IIIA the vest is tested and must meet the standards below.
"5.2.4 Type III-A Test Weapons and Ammunition
5.2.4.1 44 Magnum
The test weapon may be a 44 Magnum handgun or test barrel. The use of a handgun with a 14 to
16 cm (5.5 to 6.25 in) barrel is suggested. Test bullets shall be 44 Magnum, lead semiwadcutter with
gas checks, nominal masses of 15.55 g (240 gr), and measured velocities of 426 ± 15 m (1400 ± 50 ft)
per second.
5.2.4.2 Submachine Gun (SMG) 9 mm
The test weapon may be a 9 mm SMG or test barrel. The use of a test barrel with a 24 to 26 cm
(9.5 to 10.25 in) barrel is suggested. Test bullets shall be 9 mm full metal jacketed, with nominal
messes of 8.0 g (124 gr) and measured velocities of 426 ± 15 m (1400 ± 50 ft) per second"
Most departments only issue a Level II vest as standard and a lot of officers won't go up to a IIIA because it is more "uncomfortable" i.e. stiffer.
A 30-30 will easily penetrate a Level II and a IIIA vest. And even if it hits at an oblique angle at more than 100yrds and does not penetrate the kevlar, imagine letting a very large angry man with a heavy ballpeen hammer hit you in the chest while you are wearing only a t-shirt (OK and pants
)The hard shock plate made of titanium (Second Chance), ceramic or hardened steel that is worn over the sternum only helps to soften the "dent" left after the bullet impact over the heart to hopefully keep the heart from stopping. The shock plate does have some ballistic properties but does not cover a very large portion of the chest.
I hope this enlightens someone if the could stand to read all this.
rhino210
Member
BTW and DIY
Biker gangs a long time ago figured out a way to take common pistol ammo as small as .25 caliber and make it into a "vest penetrating" round very simply but I have never heard of it ever being used against anyone. In use it would only leave a very, very small but possibly deep hole where the core went through the vest and into the body but the original bullet was stopped by the vest.
Imagine getting stabbed by a paper clip.
Biker gangs a long time ago figured out a way to take common pistol ammo as small as .25 caliber and make it into a "vest penetrating" round very simply but I have never heard of it ever being used against anyone. In use it would only leave a very, very small but possibly deep hole where the core went through the vest and into the body but the original bullet was stopped by the vest.
Imagine getting stabbed by a paper clip.
thexrayboy
Member
30-30 vs typical soft ballistic vest (does not matter what the NIJ rating is) = bad outcome for person inside of vest.
ZeSpectre
Member
Yup it sure will. After I switched careers we took my old IIIA (which was "past date" anyway) and had some fun with it draped over a bale of hay.
If I remember correctly the guns used were...
.22LR pistol
9mm pistol
.38 Special SWC
.357 Magnum JHP
.357 Magnum FMJ (and a pretty hot load to boot)
.30-30 170gr
12ga "00" buck
12ga Slug
It did a good job of stopping everything up to .357 FMJ (which sort of penetrated the front but probably would not have broken skin at that point).
Multiple .22LR hits to a quarter sized area did penetrate (after about 12 rounds) but probably still wouldn't have had enough energy to break skin at that point.
.30-30 and 12ga slug blew through it like it was a big marshmallow though the last layer of the back panel did catch the 12ga slug.
renegade1alpha
Member.
The 30-30 will defeat body armor unless it hits the trauma plate. I dont think it will defeat BOTH sides. In either event I wouldnt want to be hit with it!
Cop says: "A 30/30 rifle, just like my grandpa used to hunt deer."
Public Reaction: Okay, no big deal.
Cops says: "A 30/30! That will slice through our vests like butter!"
Public Reaction: OMG!! Pass a new law to stop that cop killer gun!
Just another example of how ignorance and TV fuel perception.
Those same people probably take medical advice from watching "House" and legal advice from Ally McBeal.
Public Reaction: Okay, no big deal.
Cops says: "A 30/30! That will slice through our vests like butter!"
Public Reaction: OMG!! Pass a new law to stop that cop killer gun!
Just another example of how ignorance and TV fuel perception.
Those same people probably take medical advice from watching "House" and legal advice from Ally McBeal.
I agree, a 30-30 (and most other rifle rounds) will have no problem penetrating a vest. A hard trauma plate may stop it but it would hurt like a sumbitch. That being said, a friend of mine was shot with a 7.62x39 (SKS) and his vest stopped a hard ball round that, by all rights, should have taken out his liver. Sometimes lucky is the best thing you can be!!
MinnMooney
Member
Comparison of the .30-30 to handgun rounds (Energy)
This is ONLY an energy comparison. I realize that there are a miriad of factors that go into "penatration".... this is one of those factors :
.30-30 1700-1800 ft/lbs.
.45ACP 300-400 ft/lbs.
9mm Luger 275-375 ft/lbs.
.40S&W 375-425 ft/lbs.
.357Mag 500-575 ft/lbs.
.38Spec. 240-300 ft/lbs.
10mm Auto 400-425 ft/lbs.
These are from charts for "Personal Defence" rounds from Fed. Cartridge. There are many more stats. out there with some rounds for each caliber having more or less energy but this is just a rough comparison.
This is ONLY an energy comparison. I realize that there are a miriad of factors that go into "penatration".... this is one of those factors :
.30-30 1700-1800 ft/lbs.
.45ACP 300-400 ft/lbs.
9mm Luger 275-375 ft/lbs.
.40S&W 375-425 ft/lbs.
.357Mag 500-575 ft/lbs.
.38Spec. 240-300 ft/lbs.
10mm Auto 400-425 ft/lbs.
These are from charts for "Personal Defence" rounds from Fed. Cartridge. There are many more stats. out there with some rounds for each caliber having more or less energy but this is just a rough comparison.
MinnMooney
Member
Those same people probably take medical advice from watching "House" and legal advice
Hey Remander........
Do you mean that after watching an entire season of "House" that I'm not qualified to self-remove my appendix ?!?
I'd better get to the hospital........... my sutures are leaking. Oops, they just pulled out entirely - and my appendix just fell out! I thought that I'd removed it. I guess that was my kidney. Oh, well.
"Just another example of how ignorance and TV fuel perception."
How true.
Hey Remander........
Do you mean that after watching an entire season of "House" that I'm not qualified to self-remove my appendix ?!?
I'd better get to the hospital........... my sutures are leaking. Oops, they just pulled out entirely - and my appendix just fell out! I thought that I'd removed it. I guess that was my kidney. Oh, well.
"Just another example of how ignorance and TV fuel perception."
How true.
langenc
Member
Just what the anti-gun producer wrote. They are just MSMD=monkey see, monkey say (in this case).
My ex-partner was shot with a 30-30. He was shot from above. The suspect was on a rooftop shooting down. Tim was shot through the top of the shoulder and it exited just above mid back area. He survived and is working the streets today. His back-up that night, was shot straight on (same 30-30) and the bullet with through the metal kick plate, through the vest and through his t-shirt. Bullet was found at the hospital between t-shirt and skin. Bad bruise, but lived to talk about it.
Firethorn said:
IIRC, it takes more layers of Kevlar to stop a .38 Special than to stop a .22 LR.
IMHO, the use of tractor-sabot flechettes is the best-penetrating option, even if it usualy comes at an accuracy penalty in small arms. You might be able to do this easily on the home reloading bench by starting with those .308-to-.223 sabots (like the Remington Accelerator). This also has the benefit of allowing you to keep the overall projo nose flat enough to not have to worry about tube-magazine ignitions in a .30-30 lever gun.
But as others have already pointed out, typical body armor doesn't stop most "rifle" rounds, even if the bullets aren't specifically armor-piercing.
IIRC, it takes more layers of Kevlar to stop a .38 Special than to stop a .22 LR.
IMHO, the use of tractor-sabot flechettes is the best-penetrating option, even if it usualy comes at an accuracy penalty in small arms. You might be able to do this easily on the home reloading bench by starting with those .308-to-.223 sabots (like the Remington Accelerator). This also has the benefit of allowing you to keep the overall projo nose flat enough to not have to worry about tube-magazine ignitions in a .30-30 lever gun.
But as others have already pointed out, typical body armor doesn't stop most "rifle" rounds, even if the bullets aren't specifically armor-piercing.
ProficientRifleman
Member
- Joined
- May 3, 2006
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He's a cop so he must be right. They're the experts, you know...
In this case he was right, but he could have pointed to just about ANY center-fire rifle and said the same thing.
In this case he was right, but he could have pointed to just about ANY center-fire rifle and said the same thing.
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