Heavy winter clothing and bullet performance

I have never seen HST fail to expand when shot through clothing. I've not heard of this issue from our homicide investigators nor our firearms training detail. My department used that ammo for the first 15 years of my service. We average about 20-25 officer involved shootings a year.

Could it have happened in that time? Sure. Was it an issue at all? Nope.

I have seen it clogged with wood and drywall. I have also seen HST expand after going through those.

The same can be said with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P 9mm.

We recently switched to Winchester Ranger One. The jury is still out but it's initially looking to also work well.
 
Winchester claims:

"Engineered channels direct fluid flow into hollow point. Minimizes the effects of drywall, cloth, and other barriers to ensure reliable expansion."
 
Didn't the Fackler people like the IWBA or something demonstrate through a controlled experiment that 3-layers of denim resulted in the same results as the FBI's heavy-clothing protocol that specified Malden-Mills fleece and several other layers? I thought they published a paper at one point that showed strong evidence that the FBI's more complex protocol was unnecessary because there was no statistical difference between the results with it and the results with 3 layers of denim -- and isn't this why the 3-layers of denim has become the defacto standard almost every time people shoot jello?
IWBA member Duncan MacPherson and the California Highway Patrol jointly developed the IWBA's four-layer heavy denim cloth test, which is a more challenging and superior test than the FBI's heavy clothing test.

Four layers of heavy (12-16 oz) denim cloth was chosen because it's a simple test. It was never intended to represent any simulation of clothing. It's an engineering tool to evaluate the ability of a JHP bullet to resist plugging and expand robustly.

As for clear gelatin as a test medium - bullets behave differently than they do in properly prepared and calibrated Type 250A ordnance gelatin, water, and soft tissues. Clear gelatin is not a valid soft tissue simulant as it has been proved to exhibit large errors in bullet penetration depth and bullet expansion. Water-filled cardboard half-gallon milk cartons provide a more accurate test of terminal performance than clear gelatin.
 
I always though "ballistic clay" was the best. It makes any crap look good:

Compress_20240125_143952_2112-660x462.jpg

That's Shot Show 2024. I mean, if it was nacho cheese, they could put out a bowl of chips and at least visitors to the booth would have something to snack on.
 
Barriers including plywood, sheetmetal, and heavy clothing can and often do plug hollowpoints. Plugged hollowpoints fail to expand in 10% gel. Plugged hollowpoints fail to expand in water. Plugged hollowpoints fail.
Be interesting to buy some silicone sealant from local auto store. Fill the hollow point to flush with leading edge of bullet, let cure and wipe off any excess. Redo test with all the heavy clothing you want. Some of us live in cold climes where 3 layers of carhart material would be normal, in addition to t-shirts and flannels.
 
For my 9mm I'm taking 124 HST all day every day.
357 I'm shooting Remington 158 SJHP
38 Special, 148 full wadcutters
44 Special 200 gr GDHP
Unless you are double layered in a buffalo hide, I think I'm good if I got to shoot.
 
Be interesting to buy some silicone sealant from local auto store. Fill the hollow point to flush with leading edge of bullet, let cure and wipe off any excess. Redo test with all the heavy clothing you want. Some of us live in cold climes where 3 layers of carhart material would be normal, in addition to t-shirts and flannels.

Is the idea that the silicone would prevent the hollowpoint from failing to expand, or that it would ensure its failure? It seems to me if a simple thing like that would somehow improve the bullet's performance, the manufacturer would do it. Polymer tips that are inserted in the meplat of some other bullet designs like Critical Duty or Ranger One are both an acknowledgement that there is concern about hollowpoint bullet failure through barriers and also a potential solution. It seems to me the polymer inserts have been found to improve the performance in the gel tests, but there are other questions about whether there was ever a problem in actual use and if the problem is real, whether the polymer inserts solve anything but gel test conundrums.

Hollowpoint alternatives have mostly been ignored by the US law-enforcement culture for a long time, something like 5 decades I suppose. Nevertheless, there were effective bullets besides hollowpoints and there still are. Besides the traditional bullet designs, I already mentioned the "fluid transfer monolithic." That seems to have been written-off as a gimmick or something by LE agencies, but I remember Bill Wilson, shortly after he had acquired Lehigh and built the Texas factory was displaying his EDC piece and showing that he carried cartridges loaded with Xtreme Defense bullets. More recently, he appeared in a video demonstrating Lehigh's Controlled Fracturing bullets and mentioned that is what he carries now. Neither the Phillips bit deals nor the fracturing bullets were an invention of Lehigh exclusively, but the fracturing bullets have become a great deal more popular for hunting through other boutique bullet makers like Cutting Edge Bullets, Hammer Bullets, Lehigh, etc.

I haven't seen how robust controlled fracturing bullets from Hammer, Lehigh, or Cutting Edge are through various barriers, the degree to which they depend on hydraulic action to fracture, or whether they consistently achieve sufficient penetration from common handgun cartridges after fracturing. Obviously, they lose some mass when fracturing, but because they don't expand, they could be designed to retain similar sectional density to an expanded hollowpoint.

Here's the Wilson Combat gel test with real gel and 4 layers of denim:

 
Manufacturers are doing it, just not with messy silicone. It's not a new concept, and does in fact promote bullet expansion by acting as a non-compressible fluid that transfers the frontal impact force to the side. Same concept as Hornady's newer critical defense/duty bullet lines.
 
But that's the point. They're not doing it with silicone. Besides that, they're not simply adding polymer inserts into hollowpoints that weren't designed for them. Critical Duty is not just an XTP with a polymer plug.
 
But that's the point. They're not doing it with silicone. Besides that, they're not simply adding polymer inserts into hollowpoints that weren't designed for them. Critical Duty is not just an XTP with a polymer plug.
You missed the point. The polymer insert also acts like a non compressible fluid and a lot easier to handle then sticky silicone. Not having actually tried it you're discussing/dismissing it with someone who has.
 
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