Help me justify a rifle

[db4570]

Do I really need a center fire rifle?

Actually, I already have one- a nice old bolt action sporterized surplus military. But I am getting really close to picking up a “black” semi-auto .308 and a dozen or so mags. Problem is, I can’t imagine what I’d ever actually need it for.

I arrived at this notion by examining my general outlook on life in the US in the near future.

I am pretty sure it is going to continue pretty much the way it is now for the foreseeable future. I think we are probably going to slip into a bad recession, like Carter-era or worse. I think crime may go up as a result, but not in a significant way, especially in my safe, affluent, soccer-mom suburb ½ hour outside a small (albeit rough) rust belt city. I’m guessing this is about a 75% probability.

But I also think there’s maybe a 15% chance things could get a lot worse- somewhere on the scale of FerFAL’s Argentina scenario, although probably not as bad for a variety of reasons. Let’s say it gets pretty bad in my neighborhood. I still have a tough time imagining it getting to FerFAL’s level of danger. There might be the possibility of inner-city thugs making expeditions into the suburbs in the hopes of easy pickings. Maybe your chances of getting mugged or carjacked at the mall increase a lot. Maybe break-ins become a lot more frequent, with a rare home invasion happening from time to time. Maybe small gangs travel out to the ‘burbs to raise some hell.

These are all good reasons to have a handgun. But even in FerFAL’s world of the Argentinean chaos, I couldn’t really figure out what a big rifle would be needed for, although he advocated for one in a sensible sounding way.

I can only imagine needing a big rifle for a couple of reasons. One- if I owned a big piece of property out in the boonies and was in a situation where a group was trying to raid it, and I had enough warning to figure this out in advance. Two- if a large group was trying to raid my current suburban home. But my entire house lot is basically within pistol range, and the thought of a big rifle round sailing through my residential neighborhood is very sobering.

And FerFAL makes a lot of sense when he describes a potential attacker as appearing suddenly, basically right at your elbow, without any warning. Some large hostile group attacking from a long distance seems very unlikely.

Let’s say there’s a 5% chance things get to the point of actually being worse than the Argentina scenario (which I guess I consider to be an extended, mild SHTF), and getting closer to a TEOTWAWKI, ala Baghdad, or Mad Max. I know many feel this is a very real possibility, but I picture it being extremely unlikely. But say it happens. Maybe I can team up with neighbors in my sleepy little sub-division to secure the whole neighborhood, setting up roadblocks on the entrance streets, etc. Maybe I decide to bug out for the hills as a last resort. A black rifle would be pretty useful in these situations. Is it worth spending a couple grand on that slim possibility?

That leaves the remaining 5% chance, which is that the economy doesn’t plunge, we all live happily ever after, but that I still want one of these rifles just for kicks. Hard to justify the cost unless I win a small lottery or something.

Ideas welcome!

David

 

[mio]

ok we will justify this the way i justify all my gun purchases.

do i have one? no
ok i need one.

 

[rino451]

Consider it insurance against all your scenarios. What are the odds that you are going to get into a wreck this year? Yet you still pay car insurance. What about your alarm system on your house? Are you really that likely to get broken into?

We buy these things just for that most unlikely event where teh stakes are the highest.

Sadly, I waited a little too long to get an RRA LAR-8 ... So I'm getting an A-bolt Mountain Ti, instead, I think.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

But my entire house lot is basically within pistol range,

But is it within that range when you are stressed? A rifle is much easier to hit with. That's maybe the best justification I can think of. But since you don't want to shoot a full rifle round in your neighborhood, maybe a pistol caliber carbine would be best.

But if you want something more practical, you might want to get a shotgun.

And if you still want it, but can't justify it, you could always become concerned about home invaders wearing body armor.

 

[Claude Clay]

if the SHTF or the local big-box retailor should cease operations you will need that gun to protect your wife's shoes and handbags from looters

 

[mbt2001]

Honestly a "black rifle" is like insurance, Katrina happens you will need it and be glad to have it. Nothing happens, then you won't use it that much. Short of hog hunting or the like.

Also, if things get worse or Obama passes AWB, then you can sell it and make some money (should it come to that).

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Black .308?

In your situation, somehow a .308 semi seems a bit much.

I would consider something in a medium rifle cartridge, like 5.56 NATO (.223) or 7.62x39 AK-type.

If budget is an issue, the AK family offers a lot of diversity for a good price. There are also some 5.56 rifles that take AR-15 mags -- like the Kel-tec SU-16 family -- that price in at around $500-$600.

Ruger's new generation of Mini-14 (with 20-round factory mags) is also an option, although a) the mag is proprietary and b) the mags are scarce, meaning you'd have to go with after-market mags for capacity. The new Minis are selling for somewhere in the $700 range.

There are also some reasonable 9mm carbines available.

These are more suitable for in-close work (less than 100 yards).

Finally, there are lever guns, such as the Marlin 1894C, chambered for .357 mag and .38 special. The .357 carbine is a good general-purpose rifle that doesn't cost much to feed, and packs adequate punch for most requirements. It also has a non-scary "cowboy gun" appearance, if that matters to you at all. If you want improved accuracy out at 100 yards, a receiver-mounted peep sight helps a lot.

While a .308 semi-auto will certainly get the job done, I believe you'll find it heavy and expensive to feed.

To make a more intelligent contribution, I'd need to have a clearer picture of your needs and preferences.

 

[tradja]

Well, I agree with you: trying to convince yourself that TEOTWAWKI is imminent (or likely) is a poor way to motivate yourself to buy a rifle, especially if you are not, as it sounds, predisposed towards tinfoil. Fortunately, you have us to convince you to get the rifle anyway. The reasons outlined above are certainly valid, but consider using a different set of criteria:

Do I want one? check.
If I got one, do I anticipate enjoying it? check.
Can I afford it? check.
Do I still have some 2A rights? check.

If you can answer "yes" to these questions, then just get it!

Centerfire rifles are great.

 

[Water-Man]

Get yourself a lever action rifle in .357 mag..

 

[WardenWolf]

I would recommend a .308 simply because it's a military round which will ensure it remains in production and widely available. It also has sufficient stopping power for any game in North America. If I were to pick 2 rounds to have rifles in, they would be 5.56 NATO and .308 / 7.62x51 NATO. Between those two, all your bases will be covered.

 

[LKB3rd]

The main advantage to .308 over smaller rifle calibers or handguns is its ability to turn cover into concealment-aka it shoots through stuff well. I'd think about whether you can imagine a situation where this would be useful as you mull over your decision.

 

[Jeff White]

First off, if you want one, that is a good enough reason to have one. If I had to justify every firearm I owned, I could probably justify the four I used on and off duty. The other 60 or so were just because....

A rifle is the most potent defensive arm you can own. Accurate and powerful. But they aren't very handy. In today's world we carry handguns because it isn't socially acceptable to walk around every day with an M4 or FAL slung. Not only is it not socially acceptable, just ask any Infantryman what a pain in the butt it is to carry a rifle everywhere, 24-7.

Many members here say that they carry a rifle in their vehicle. That's fine. I carried one in my patrol car and it came out on every call that I thought might require the use of a firearm. But how many private citizens respond to incidents where they might need to use a firearm? The private citizen moves away from those situations, not into them.

The only real defensive use a private citizen has for a rifle is from a fixed position. Since I have retired that's the role my patrol rifle serves. It's what I would respond with if there were an intruder in my home.

You are going to have trouble proving self defense if you were to use a rifle at any kind of range, perhaps if someone was shooting at you from 100 yards or so.....

A rifle fills a limited role in a private citizen's defensive armory. That doesn't mean you shouldn't have one. They are fun. If you want one, get one, that's all the justification you need.

 

[nekwah]

Whats wrong with the good ol .223. Ammunition is cheap and it will plenty well take somebody down. There great coyote killers and rabbit annihilaters as well.

 

[Liberty1776]

Sir; I am but a simple, unfrozen Neanderthal lawyer - your world frightens, and confuses me... what is this "need" word of which you speak???

like MIO said - if I don't HAVE one, I NEED one

 

[Fred Fuller]

If someone hasn't come up with some Strategies and Tactics discussions instead of just Hardware Lust by the next time I visit this thread, I'll be moving it to Rifle Country...

lpl

 

[armoredman]

Hardware Lust, isn't that a Tim Allen term?
I have an EBR. I have a very hard time envisioning when I could actually employ it, but I did know this when I bought it - I may never get the chance to make that choice again, before fed.gov makes it for me.

 

[Big Bill]

Here's my justification for arming myself...

I don't ever want to hear my wife or children scream in pain and horror as they are being raped and tortured before being killed by the slobs that will take advantage of a lawless society. I think that any real man would/should feel the same.

 

[Rmac58]

Well, if you'd like a black 22 inch Saiga in .308, PM me.

 

[db4570]

Thanks for the replies so far. Here are some general responses to some of them.

First- to buy one just because I want one. Not going to happen. This is not some $50-100 gadget; it's a couple grand, maybe three by the time I scope it, etc. That's a lot of dough to me. If I bought everything I "wanted" over the years, I'd have been broke long ago.

Second- I don't like .223. Sorry- I know a lot of you do, but I have just never cared for it. I know there are a lot of valid arguments for it. I've listened to them all. I have been intrigued with ballistics for many years, and have given the subject considerable thought.

Third- I do like AKs, and admire their functionality, ruggedness, and the cartridge, in general. I also like the fact that you can build one with a non-registered receiver. I don't like their lack of accuracy at moderate range, their clunkiness, their ergonomics, and the way they look. The accuracy thing is a bit of a deal breaker. I do keep them in the back of my mind, though. Can their accuracy be improved much?

Even though I describe my situation at home as only needing a short-range weapon, I figure if I have a rifle at all, it ought to cover long range well. I'm just trying to think of a scenario where I'd need that range.

Fourth- You don't need to convince me to be armed in general. I am. It's just this one niche I'm struggling over.

Fifth- The probable new upcoming restrictions on guns is a motivator to act now. I love the irony of that.

Sixth- I think the suggestion to consider this gun an insurance policy with a rare chance it will ever be needed is probably the closest to what I am thinking.

I still have yet to come up with a situation where I'd need it. A carbine seems to make more sense, but, again, I figure if I have the gun, it might as well be long-range accurate.

I'm leaning toward an AR-10. Mags are a bit of a problem here in New York, but I may have figured out how to deal with that.

So any scenarios where I'd need that kind of range in a SHTF situation?

David

 

[Jeff White]

So any scenarios where I'd need that kind of range in a SHTF situation?

No, not as a private citizen where you can only fire in self defense. It's going to be pretty hard to get the police, prosecutor, grand jury and jury to believe someone posed a threat of great bodily harm or death to you or your loved ones from several hundred meters away.

 

[expvideo]

I have a Sig pistol and an AK rifle. That covers "need". Now all of my purchases are "want". I think we get caught up in justifying our purchases a little too much. I'm sure I can dream up a reason why I "need" a suppressed .22 pistol, but the reality is that I want one, so I'm going to go out and buy one when my tax return comes in. Now if you share finances with a wife or girlfriend, you may need to find a good reason, since it is a large purchase. But what it boils down to is that you want one, so go get one. Forget "need". I don't need to shoot as much as I do, but I enjoy it, and that's good enough reason to buy guns and go shooting.

 

[goon]

Are there even any semi-auto .308's available in your area?
I'd take a look at what's in stock and go from there.
Also, after you buy your rifle you'll need ammo. You're looking at about $500 minimum for 1K of 7.62x51, possibly more. Make sure you factor that into your budget.

But if you have the money for the rifle, a dozen mags, and 1K of ammo (or even 500 rounds), I say go for it.

 

[Geno]

Jeff said:

No, not as a private citizen where you can only fire in self defense. It's going to be pretty hard to get the police, prosecutor, grand jury and jury to believe someone posed a threat of great bodily harm or death to you or your loved ones from several hundred meters away.

I respect you a lot Jeff; heck, I even admire you. Wouldn't even mind sharing a beer with you. But in this statement, I submit that the possibility does exist, and unfortunately I have seen it.

We had a family's home, in my small hometown, turned into Swiss cheese by small arms fire from a good distance. I can only hope that if such happened to me, I would be able to defend myself. Although, in the case that I referenced, and against multiple perps, a good basement seemed best defense. Fortunately, the family was not at home.

In Michigan, because of castle doctrine, the potential range for defense is as far as someone can fire into someone else's house, car, etc, and with no fear of prosecution. That, however, is Michigan. Now, the extent of probability of such happening, that is the great debate. Likely it will never happen to me. But I can't say never. The operative consideration seems to be the existence/absence of Castle Doctrine.

Doc2005

 

[expvideo]

No, not as a private citizen where you can only fire in self defense. It's going to be pretty hard to get the police, prosecutor, grand jury and jury to believe someone posed a threat of great bodily harm or death to you or your loved ones from several hundred meters away.

Jeff, I have personally been in a situation where I needed a rifle and didn't have one. Fortunately things ended up working themselves out, but if I hadn't been so lucky I don't know what would have happened but it wouldn't have been good. There are very few situations where a person will need a rifle, but just like the police (who also have to use them in a defensive role only), a person can find that one in a million situation and when they do a rifle will be very, very necessary.

 

[dispatch55126]

Problem is, I can’t imagine what I’d ever actually need it for.

Let's see: I don't "need" my AR, Steyr, one of my Mosins, one of my .22's, 9mm, SKS or my BP pistol. I can justify my shotgun(HD, hunting), T53(hunting), .22(hunting) and my BP rifle(hunting).

What I don't "need" I "want". Of all the "don't need" rifles, the AR is actually the most useless unless the world ends..but I wanted it.

The question to you, and only you can answer this is: Do you "need" a .308 for something or do you "want" a .308. If you "need" the .308, get whatever platform will fill the need the best. If you "want" a .308, get whatever platform will be the most fun.