Schwing
Member
I agree. That is why I just had to get handgun and carbine versions of
.22
9MM
and .38/357
I am still on the hunt for the carbine versions of .44 .45 and a 45-70.
Sometimes you just have to give yourself a few excuses to buy more
Do I need a defense rifle? Help me decide.
- Thread starter couldbeanyone
- Start date
- Status
I agree. That is why I just had to get handgun and carbine versions of
.22
9MM
and .38/357
I am still on the hunt for the carbine versions of .44 .45 and a 45-70.
Sometimes you just have to give yourself a few excuses to buy more
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Seems to me that one should start by envisioning realistic scenarios involving threats from deadly force. From that, figure the sort of defensive weapon likely to be most useful in any one scenario. Different scenarios would cause different selections.
Consider numbers of bad guys: One? Three or more? Sneak-in burglar? Break-in invasion? Riotous street mob? Day? Night? Awake and around the house? Asleep? Access to whatever defense weapon you have? All this stuff should have thought given to it.
Consider numbers of bad guys: One? Three or more? Sneak-in burglar? Break-in invasion? Riotous street mob? Day? Night? Awake and around the house? Asleep? Access to whatever defense weapon you have? All this stuff should have thought given to it.
Keep in mind, there are two general philosophies when it comes to defensive firearms, the "does it work?" philosophy, and the "min-max."
In terms of "does it work?", the answer is "if it's reliable and you can hit a target at the expected range", then it works. The problem with this philosophy is that pretty much 95% of the products on the market fall into this category, and according to this my LCP or a single-shot .410 would "work".
Then comes the question of min/max. Where things like handling, recoil, capacity, relative power, etc. etc. come into play. Min/maxing then depends on the factors that you feel are important.
Lever actions have safeties, just like modern AR-15s. This means they are as safe to handle, and there is much less risk of a slamfire than you make there out to be.
Shooting someone through the door is some of the worst advice I've seen. You need to identify your target before taking your shot. Through the door you have less chance to ID your target and less chance to actually hit what you're aiming at.
While rifle rounds can be made to be barrier penetrating, you don't want to use barrier busting ammo in your home. While I agree that the issues of overpenetration are largely overblown, one of the advantages of rifles over shotguns and pistols is that rifles with proper SD rounds overpenetrate LESS through walls on a miss. A pistol round will just clog up and keep chugging through, while shotguns just plow through walls, gradually slowing down. Rifle rounds are designed to dump their energy. This leads to a greater loss of velocity when going through barriers, and also leads to bigger wound channels.
Granted, a .357 magnum isn't going to quite reach the velocities that you can get out of a rifle round, and yes a .30-30 would be better. However, that .357 magnum out of a rifle would make a wider, longer wound track than out of a revolver.
Can I see the source on this quote? I don't recall Biden saying use a rifle and shoot through the door. I recall him saying use a double-barrel shotgun and shoot warning shots into the air.
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To answer the questions of accuracy, I have a lot less range time than I do posts. That's because posts are free and ammo isn't. I guess you could call me an armchair commando. When I'm using my shotgun, I typically have less spread at 15 feet than I do when using my pistols, and my follow-up shots are just as fast. Yes, that's with 00 buck in the shotgun.
There is definitely something to be said for the stability a stock provides, even at 15 feet or less. I would definitely choose a long gun over a handgun, and unless you practice 1000-to-1 or something like that with your handguns-to-longuns, I would recommend the same.
In terms of "does it work?", the answer is "if it's reliable and you can hit a target at the expected range", then it works. The problem with this philosophy is that pretty much 95% of the products on the market fall into this category, and according to this my LCP or a single-shot .410 would "work".
Then comes the question of min/max. Where things like handling, recoil, capacity, relative power, etc. etc. come into play. Min/maxing then depends on the factors that you feel are important.
Lever actions have safeties, just like modern AR-15s. This means they are as safe to handle, and there is much less risk of a slamfire than you make there out to be.
Shooting someone through the door is some of the worst advice I've seen. You need to identify your target before taking your shot. Through the door you have less chance to ID your target and less chance to actually hit what you're aiming at.
While rifle rounds can be made to be barrier penetrating, you don't want to use barrier busting ammo in your home. While I agree that the issues of overpenetration are largely overblown, one of the advantages of rifles over shotguns and pistols is that rifles with proper SD rounds overpenetrate LESS through walls on a miss. A pistol round will just clog up and keep chugging through, while shotguns just plow through walls, gradually slowing down. Rifle rounds are designed to dump their energy. This leads to a greater loss of velocity when going through barriers, and also leads to bigger wound channels.
Granted, a .357 magnum isn't going to quite reach the velocities that you can get out of a rifle round, and yes a .30-30 would be better. However, that .357 magnum out of a rifle would make a wider, longer wound track than out of a revolver.
Can I see the source on this quote? I don't recall Biden saying use a rifle and shoot through the door. I recall him saying use a double-barrel shotgun and shoot warning shots into the air.
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To answer the questions of accuracy, I have a lot less range time than I do posts. That's because posts are free and ammo isn't. I guess you could call me an armchair commando. When I'm using my shotgun, I typically have less spread at 15 feet than I do when using my pistols, and my follow-up shots are just as fast. Yes, that's with 00 buck in the shotgun.
There is definitely something to be said for the stability a stock provides, even at 15 feet or less. I would definitely choose a long gun over a handgun, and unless you practice 1000-to-1 or something like that with your handguns-to-longuns, I would recommend the same.
David E
Member
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2008
- Messages
- 7,459
I missed this episode of some cop show, but Farnam's Quip described it basically as two cops had AR's in their hands when they were attacked by handgun armed bad guys. What did the cops do? They slung their AR's and engaged the bad guys with pistols!I know that a rifle is more powerful and potentially more accurate and easier to hit with. But what is the scenario in which I am going to make this longer shot and am actually going to have the rifle with me?
Keep in mind that I have shot over 10,000 38 special rounds this last year and practice double taps out to 20 yards regularly and shoot out to 55 yards as well with a revolver. Almost all of this practice is in IDPA type scenarios. I'm really not sure I can run, and get hits with a levergun faster at 25 yards.
clearcut, you you could be right about that gun.
I see that same mentality here: "longer shots," "20-50 yd shots," etc
A rifle is a very good fighting tool. A lever action can be fired accurately quite fast.
OP, if you can shoot your handgun at 25 yd targets "just as fast as a rifle" then you need a reality check.
Since you live in OK, go to the OKC Gunclub and watch how fast and accurately the Cowboy shooters run their lever actions, or how quickly the 3-Gunners hit the targets at living room distances as well as 300 yds with their AR's.
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quote from schwing... Now, I would never argue that a 16" .357 lever gun is going have near the stopping power, or fire rate of an AR15.
357mag out of a carbine is traveling at apprx 2,000fps with a 125-185gr bullet.
5.56/.223 travels at apprx 3,000 fps with a 55-63gr bullet.
63gr 5.56= 1200-1300 ft/lbs energy
125gr .357mag= 1200+ ft/lbs energy
they are about equal in energy but I would bet the 357 would penetrate better being the heavier bullet.
A lever gun can also be shot very fast if you know how to use one.
357mag out of a carbine is traveling at apprx 2,000fps with a 125-185gr bullet.
5.56/.223 travels at apprx 3,000 fps with a 55-63gr bullet.
63gr 5.56= 1200-1300 ft/lbs energy
125gr .357mag= 1200+ ft/lbs energy
they are about equal in energy but I would bet the 357 would penetrate better being the heavier bullet.
A lever gun can also be shot very fast if you know how to use one.
While you are correct about the energy, javjacob, a light, fast bullet will dump energy better than a slow, heavy bullet. That energy dump can come in the form of stretch cavitation, expansion, or fragmentation, which results in a larger wound channel.
In the cases of a 115-grain 9mm vs. 147-grain 9mm, it won't make much of a difference, because you're just talking about a few hundred FPS. But when you're talking about a thousand or more FPS...it makes a difference.
In the cases of a 115-grain 9mm vs. 147-grain 9mm, it won't make much of a difference, because you're just talking about a few hundred FPS. But when you're talking about a thousand or more FPS...it makes a difference.
Caliche Kid
Member
357 carbines are very effective and mild, when compared to .223 ARs or .357 handguns. Carbine length barrel turns the .357 cartridge into a monster. I like 158 grain flat nose. Carry one daily, use a lot on pests like hogs. I also carry .223 a lot, like it better on sounders but for single shot effectiveness, I like the .357 hands down.
Rifles for SD are generally something best used in a very rural environment. Where I live I could have people shooting at me from 1000 yards away. And there are certainly some people that can hit you at that distance. Of course the best thing to do in that situation is to seek cover and call the police but if I still lived on my farm it would take the police at least an hour just to get there if they could find it at all. And not so long ago a guy who lives next to the farm decided he wanted access through the yard of our house to his property that he was actually trying to sell to a developer of cheapskate fishing camps. He didn't want them driving through his yard obviously. So he filed a lawsuit. He also made it clear that he would kill us and our entire families if we didn't comply. And it wouldn't be the first people he had killed. The best part is that he is the best shot I have ever seen personally and he has access to numerous hilltops where he could fire at my cousin who still lives on the farm from anywhere around 250 yards to 500 yards. THAT is the reason a person needs a long range rifle for SD.
Most city dwellers are actually better off with a shotgun or a battle carbine. There was a particular incident in this country where a battle carbine effectively defended people's property in the form of their stores. The LA riots were largely about burning down the buildings of people they didn't like. In particular they didn't like the Korean business owners in their neighborhoods who they felt took advantage of them unfairly. Many of those businesses were burned to the ground. Some were effectively defended by the owners taking a position on the roof and using an SKS to hold off rioters.
I'm not saying that is a likely scenario but you asked when you might need a rifle and this is an example. Certain situations after Katrina also involved people using rifles. There have been other situations where people have been left isolated and unprotected by the police. I spent a few days completely cut off from civilization because of an ice storm. It would have been a perfect time for the gang bangers who lived up the hill from me to try to take me out. They didn't like me very much. But they knew I was heavily armed. I would have needed a battle carbine to hold off that crowd. When I was young we were constantly cut off from the outside world because of floods and heavy snow. Any ambitious predator could have used that against us except for the fact we were heavily armed. This was on the same farm I spoke of earlier BTW. Also a group of ATV riders got upset because my cousin told them to stay off our property. One of them fired a rifle through the roof of the house he lives in. It would have taken a powerful rifle to shoot back at that ATV rider who shot from about 350 yards away from the house and he was up on a hill.
Where you live a handgun isn't a bad choice for SD. A shotgun is better because one blast from a shotgun (using buckshot) will almost certainly disable an attacker. That isn't true of a handgun. I mostly use handguns for SD in cars or when I go places (I have a CCW). If the law allowed me to carry a loaded long gun in my car I would likely do so. But it's hard to aim a long gun inside a car especially if you have bad guys on both sides or behind you. A handgun is better in many ways inside a car.
I agree with others here who say you should go with a bigger caliber rifle if you want to go that route. The biggest advantage of using a rifle over a handgun is the ability to shoot more powerful loads IMO.
Most city dwellers are actually better off with a shotgun or a battle carbine. There was a particular incident in this country where a battle carbine effectively defended people's property in the form of their stores. The LA riots were largely about burning down the buildings of people they didn't like. In particular they didn't like the Korean business owners in their neighborhoods who they felt took advantage of them unfairly. Many of those businesses were burned to the ground. Some were effectively defended by the owners taking a position on the roof and using an SKS to hold off rioters.
I'm not saying that is a likely scenario but you asked when you might need a rifle and this is an example. Certain situations after Katrina also involved people using rifles. There have been other situations where people have been left isolated and unprotected by the police. I spent a few days completely cut off from civilization because of an ice storm. It would have been a perfect time for the gang bangers who lived up the hill from me to try to take me out. They didn't like me very much. But they knew I was heavily armed. I would have needed a battle carbine to hold off that crowd. When I was young we were constantly cut off from the outside world because of floods and heavy snow. Any ambitious predator could have used that against us except for the fact we were heavily armed. This was on the same farm I spoke of earlier BTW. Also a group of ATV riders got upset because my cousin told them to stay off our property. One of them fired a rifle through the roof of the house he lives in. It would have taken a powerful rifle to shoot back at that ATV rider who shot from about 350 yards away from the house and he was up on a hill.
Where you live a handgun isn't a bad choice for SD. A shotgun is better because one blast from a shotgun (using buckshot) will almost certainly disable an attacker. That isn't true of a handgun. I mostly use handguns for SD in cars or when I go places (I have a CCW). If the law allowed me to carry a loaded long gun in my car I would likely do so. But it's hard to aim a long gun inside a car especially if you have bad guys on both sides or behind you. A handgun is better in many ways inside a car.
I agree with others here who say you should go with a bigger caliber rifle if you want to go that route. The biggest advantage of using a rifle over a handgun is the ability to shoot more powerful loads IMO.
Jason_W
Member
I was always able to unload them just like I do my pump action shotguns. Eject the round in the chamber and roll the open chamber toward the ground, The next round will roll out without having to chamber it.
Welllllll.... I defensive long gun- rifle in particular can be very effective in CQC and even though your pisto; may suffice remember the rifle has capabilities the pistol can only dram of... I would think of have in a decent rifle available even just at home as another form of insurance that can be fun until ya need it and then indispensable.... just another case of I would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it!
also a relatively inexperienced shooter could hit with a rifle like a 357 lever gun or AR a man sized target if they had to likely way better than a pistol even at close range!
also a relatively inexperienced shooter could hit with a rifle like a 357 lever gun or AR a man sized target if they had to likely way better than a pistol even at close range!
sappyg
Member
Can't help you there. The only purpose I need need to buy a gun is my own enjoyment. It's just that way. If it fills more than that one role then alls the better.
The way I see it. If your looking for us to supply scenario to justify a want as a need then you're just kidding yourself (no offense).
Here's my scenario, went to the range today... With an AK.
Shot up some full size paper targets at 15 & 25 yards. It was a good day.
What that means is, if that sounds fun to you then get whatever rifle makes that happen for you. If it doesn't sound fun then a (insert type) rifle may not be for you. If you want a pistol caliber lever gun because you think it is less lethal than (insert rifle type here) then stick with the birdshot in your shotgun and you'll be fine.
Plan2Live
Member
A lever gun might work fine for home defense, IF you have two uninjured hands to work with. With one hand down, not so much. Just a thought.
Sheepdog1968
Member
I like Leverguns a lot and would feel just as comfortable and confident using it as a semi auto pistol or pump shotgun. I practice a lot with it.
If you live in liberal places that have a negative view on black AR type rifles, having something like a lever gun looks like what John Wayne used in the movies could be advantageous should you ever need to defend yourself and a liberal DA decide to prosecute or bring your case to a grand jury.
If you live in liberal places that have a negative view on black AR type rifles, having something like a lever gun looks like what John Wayne used in the movies could be advantageous should you ever need to defend yourself and a liberal DA decide to prosecute or bring your case to a grand jury.
I clicked into the thread prepared to talk about the merits of a defensive rifle, but the OP talks about a pistol-cartridge chambered lever-gun.
A "defensive rifle" has a ton of advantages over a handgun at any distance longer than contact range if it is the right one. An AR15 for example; has 30 rds of 5.56 which has both more terminal effectiveness and less over-penetration than the .357 lever gun (or any reasonable handgun). It is light, ergonomic, and you can easily mount a red dot sight and weapon light to it making it a low-light CQB weapon without peer IMO.
A "defensive rifle" has a ton of advantages over a handgun at any distance longer than contact range if it is the right one. An AR15 for example; has 30 rds of 5.56 which has both more terminal effectiveness and less over-penetration than the .357 lever gun (or any reasonable handgun). It is light, ergonomic, and you can easily mount a red dot sight and weapon light to it making it a low-light CQB weapon without peer IMO.
CoalTrain49
Member
I've never felt a need for anything other than 8 rounds in a 1911 with a few spare mags in my pocket. Prosecutor is going to be asking you some hard questions about taking someone out at 100 or even 50 yards. That's half the length of a football field and everyone knows how far that is. If you practice with a revolver or pistol and are proficient at 25 yards that should cover about 95% of your SD needs. Get a PCC if you want to cover everything but I wouldn't buy one because my revolver won't do the job because it will.
Everyone understands that if someone is shooting at you then it's a good idea to shoot back. Even the Dalai Lama agrees with that. Where I live 50 yards is a close range shot. I have a revolver that will shoot effectively at 175 yards. It's a .44 magnum. At my house the primary place to shoot at my house would be at about 65 yards because there is a hill barrier at that point. I'm practically surrounded by a defensive line of hills. But it would also give bad guys in ideal place to fire at my house from cover. Trust me that they would like to do just that. So there certainly are scenarios where shooting 50-100 yards is not going to get you an automatic conviction.
The Glock19Gen4, is my constant companion! I can shoot it real well.
But sitting in my safe, first gun I would pick, for what ever reason?
A Steyr AUG bullpup in 5.56, with a full 30 round magazine inserted, chamber empty.
It can be shot one handed, with it's 1.5 power scope it can be shot both eyes open. Great light gathering scope.
Not being clairvoyant, I have no idea why I would need a Rifle, in any kind of scenario, but it makes me feel good to have it. As we say, just in case.
But sitting in my safe, first gun I would pick, for what ever reason?
A Steyr AUG bullpup in 5.56, with a full 30 round magazine inserted, chamber empty.
It can be shot one handed, with it's 1.5 power scope it can be shot both eyes open. Great light gathering scope.
Not being clairvoyant, I have no idea why I would need a Rifle, in any kind of scenario, but it makes me feel good to have it. As we say, just in case.
76shuvlinoff
Member
I have kept my .357 Marlin lever sitting with a full mag next to my 870 with a full mag for a few years. I picked up an AR last year and I believe it's time to unload the lever.
mightyoakwildlife
Member
I believe we may all be over-thinking this whole topic. In the OP, it was asked if we could help justify a desire to buy another firearm. The simple answer is yes, without reservation. The debate begins with the discussion of which type of arm.
Preference, preference, and preference should guide this decision, as all choices are certainly adequate. If a sidearm is capable, a longarm of equal or superior chambering will also be able to handle the task at hand. Familiarity and training are of the very few limiting factors. Topics such as manuverability, safe-fire zones & over-penetration, manual of arms, maximum practical/justifiable/effective ranges, etc. are all worthy of consideration.
If I am otherwise satisfied with the sidearm at my disposal, a handy carbine or shotgun can be no detriment unless used against me. If nothing else, it may be called upon as a fail-safe or "back-up" arm. I consider myself very capable with my sidearm (and it is with me at all times), but I still keep a carbine handy and near the front door of my home.
Quick to grab if I spot a woodchuck out in the pasture, more accurate for the coyotes often harassing the livestock, and I take it along when ever I work around the property. Fun to plink with and a down-right pleasure to have around. Versatile, accurate, fun. Why SHOULDN'T you buy a carbine for home defense?
Preference, preference, and preference should guide this decision, as all choices are certainly adequate. If a sidearm is capable, a longarm of equal or superior chambering will also be able to handle the task at hand. Familiarity and training are of the very few limiting factors. Topics such as manuverability, safe-fire zones & over-penetration, manual of arms, maximum practical/justifiable/effective ranges, etc. are all worthy of consideration.
If I am otherwise satisfied with the sidearm at my disposal, a handy carbine or shotgun can be no detriment unless used against me. If nothing else, it may be called upon as a fail-safe or "back-up" arm. I consider myself very capable with my sidearm (and it is with me at all times), but I still keep a carbine handy and near the front door of my home.
Quick to grab if I spot a woodchuck out in the pasture, more accurate for the coyotes often harassing the livestock, and I take it along when ever I work around the property. Fun to plink with and a down-right pleasure to have around. Versatile, accurate, fun. Why SHOULDN'T you buy a carbine for home defense?
Welding Rod
Member
If you ever find yourself believing you are seconds from facing an armed adversary the answer will be clear.
Corn-Picker
Member
There are two statistics I always like to throw out there:
1) Trained people (i.e. cops) have a hit rate of about 15% when they discharge their weapon (mostly handguns).
2) Eight out of nine people shot with handguns survive (i.e. they may not stop coming at you)
To me those statistics suggests 1) have a high capacity magazine and 2) throw as many ft-lbs of energy as you can at them. I think a suppressed AR with 30 on tap is probably optimal for my situation.
1) Trained people (i.e. cops) have a hit rate of about 15% when they discharge their weapon (mostly handguns).
2) Eight out of nine people shot with handguns survive (i.e. they may not stop coming at you)
To me those statistics suggests 1) have a high capacity magazine and 2) throw as many ft-lbs of energy as you can at them. I think a suppressed AR with 30 on tap is probably optimal for my situation.
Vol46
Member
I just resurrected an old 30-30 Marlin from the back of my safe. I have a lot of more effective calibers for deer hunting, much better handguns & shotguns for SD & concealed carry, but it sure is a lot of fun to shoot.
TexasPatriot.308
Member
I keep a 12 gauge pump nearby at nite, also usually a .45 auto 1911 and or a double action .357 mag. right now thinking bout a .45 acp Hi Point. butt ugly and cheap, but think it would work well for a defense carbine.
CoalTrain49
Member
Where are you that all of these bad guys want to fire at your house from cover?
Are you in Syria?
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