Here is one we speak about often, 2 dead carrying with empty chamber

[salt&battery]

The victim did not have gun pointed at him when he drew, and only someone at the scene is qualified to judge from body language and from words spoken whether trying to shoot while the robber's attention was directed elsewhere might be the best course of action. Discussed here often.

That's probably the understatement of the year.

What does that mean?

How many of them have participated in realistic FoF training, or in a Tueller-scenario drill?

What "shooters" do is not important here. The subject is one of how best for defenders to carry.

QUOTE="salt&battery, post: 10528771, member: 242760"]if that guy had one in the chamber being he looked very clumsy and nervous which you can understand he might have got one shot off maybe missed and got shot anyway.

Nothing is certain.

That's always the unknown. But he was there, and it was he who had to decide, knowing what he knew at the time.




.[/QUOTE]
yes he decided to draw and him and his son are dead

 

[buck460XVR]

I don't know how anyone but the good Lord, could state that having a round in the chamber would have saved either the father or the son. Drawing a weapon from concealment, when there are multiple assailants with guns already drawn, is a very iffy and desperate move even when the weapon is in condition 0. There was a good chance even if the dad would have gotten one of the assailants, one of the others likely would have gotten him and the son anyway. From the video one could also assume had the dad not drawn, the robbers would have left after getting what they came for, leaving both the dad and son alive. But who knows what else was gong on off camera or what was being said. The dad may have heard one of the assailants saying to leave no witnesses, thus the desperate move. At least he went down fighting. This video is using scare tactics to promote it's business of SD training. Using the grief/tragedy of others to promote it's business and blaming his and the death of his son on his type of carry, to me, is disgusting, especially when the outcome would have probably been the same regardless. Folks need to decide for themselves with what they feel comfortable with when it comes to firearms and not be ridiculed after death, because it does not fit someone else's idea of comfort.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I know many good and experience shooters who prefer to rack their slide as they bring their gun to bear.

Okay, name any big name training school that teaches empty chamber carry.

 

[Hokkmike]

[/QUOTE]

Okay, name any big name training school that teaches empty chamber carry.

I don't know of any big training schools. However, if they take old duffers I wouldn't mind trying one. If you have a recommendation please let me know. I cut and paste this for the discussion. (Sourced at end)

"Why is Israeli carry/carrying with an empty chamber good? Largely because of the safety aspect. Good gun safety dictates that one should take no chances regarding the possibility of an accidental or negligent discharge. Granted, this isn't to say that a person can't carry with a round chambered and be perfectly safe; many, in fact, do and do so every day they carry. In truth, carrying with an empty chamber is an older practice, since it more or less dates from the first half of the 20th century. The drop safety (such as a firing pin block) didn't really exist at the time (though some pistols made today still lack a drop safety) and a discharge from a dropped pistol was far more likely than with a modern pistol. Even the trigger-safety-only polymer guns that are so popular today have them. However, the aforementioned pistols which have only trigger safeties should also be carried in a holster that fully covers the trigger guard - this prevents the trigger from being accidentally actuated. If one doesn't have such a holster, Condition 3 would be the safest carry method for such pistols. Accidental discharges, though. still occur with modern pistols due to negligence on the part of the carrier. How does one prevent this from occurring? Not carrying with a round in the chamber certainly will do the trick, just as a quality gun belt will keep a pistol and a holster better retained on the waistband. How Carrying In Condition One Makes More Sense shooting quicker without Israeli carry Colonel Cooper recommended carrying in Condition 1, and a lot of people tend to agree for a lot of good reasons. For starters, the Israeli method or Condition 3 make less sense given that so many pistols have more safety mechanisms than in previous eras. A good number of today's guns have more safety features including drop safeties. Tactically, carrying with an empty chamber requires one to rack the slide upon presentation. While this doesn't take much time at all (less than a second) the fact is that in a self-defense situation, every fraction of a second counts; many self-defense shootings and gun fights last only a few seconds. The time needed to rack the slide might make the difference between living and dying. Furthermore, it also requires free use of two hands, which you might not have. Those are the common objections to this carry method, and they are valid - just as the reasons for carrying with an empty chamber are valid. It's really all up to the carrier.". Continue reading at: http://gunbelts.com/blog/israeli-carry/

 

[salt&battery]

Okay, name any big name training school that teaches empty chamber carry.

training schools are run by know it all blowhards who charge a lot and make you think you will be fighting for your life every time you step out of your house. I can rack the slide on a 1911 while drawing just as fast as if one in the chamber. I do not carry or even want to. I read Col Hackworths book and he saw so many guys accidentally shot with 1911's he tried to get the higher ups to issue a different safer pistol. but then again what does he know. I am sure an instructor knows more

 

[Hokkmike]

How many of them have participated in realistic FoF training, or in a Tueller-scenario drill?

I have never heard of it. Where can a person get such training? Thanks...... (I seriously doubt that my friends have had this either)

 

[salt&battery]

[double post

 

[george burns]

The reality of having a loaded gun pointed at you is only negotiable by the person whom it is pointed at, I got lucky on more than one occasion and talked my way out of possibly being shot, by engaging the guy in conversation, it's psycological more than anything else, "if you are unarmed as I was two times in my youth, you have no other weapon than your mouth.
If you can get some type of conversation started, you are less likely to be killed. I heard one guy say to the other, "this guy ain't giving us ****" "pardon the language, but that is what he said. Followed by, either let's kill him and the girl, or let's get out of here now, we already wasted too much time.
This is what I as talking about when I say there is no way in hell that I will ever again leave this to chance, depending upon my whitt and his mood, to determine when I and my loved one meet our maker. I would have no qualms about drawing and moving at the same time if I got that feeling crawling up my back that I may be dead in a few seconds. At that point you realy have nothing to lose, because you would feel pretty stupid at the pearly gates when St Peter says , "so what happened" , you did have a gun.
Any number of things can go wrong in your "plan" and it's subject to change, at any moment in time, only you will have the choice as to if you pull or don't pull. In my experience only "you" can make that call, and only you will be to blame for what occurs after.
People often say I don't know what I would do if something like that happened to me, or those who never had an incident like that, are so sure of exactly what their plan is that it's a waste of time trying to even discuss it.
I do so here because I chose to, but not in my social circle, they wouldn't understand at all. No one can tell you what you should or shouldn't do, or how you should carry, that's up to you, in life we try to learn from others who have experienced things that we have not. And everyone is not created equal, some freeze up, others can compartmentaize things and lock them in a box, only take them out when necessary, You decide what is best for you. I made my decision years ago through incidents that influenced my thinking differently than most folks except people who have been through horrible situatiions and somehow lived through them. Just because something worked on Monday, doesn't mean the exact same thing will work again on Tuesday, so you need to be keyed into your individual situation and know your limitations. It's going to be different for everyone.
And no , I was not in Law enforcement, but did have a sought after NYC carry permit, for 23 years, because I carried what was considered large amounts of cash, "before credit cards and checks were mainstream. So I made night deposits, took home cash sometimes, and picked up and dropped off cash to our 5 locations, thus they gave me a Carry permit in 72, now I believe "last I checked you need to carry 50 thousand per day in cash, to even be considered, since everyone uses plastic now, even the busiest places don't have that much cash around, hell I have seen banks not able to cash checks for a car purchase of 10 grand.
So I was a target after the first time, the incident I spoke to earlier, which was wrong place wrong time, and could have happened to whoever was parked there. But the scary thing about that one was that it was a busy street and dozens of people entering the train station which I was parked near, saw what was happening, and just put their head down and kept walking. And since cell phones were pretty much non exhistant then, no one called the police. My friend was waiting outside an hour wodering where I had gone. So it's up to all of us to decide what's right for us, and what we actually have the capability to pull off, and sometimes you just can't know unless you expeuience something for yourself, "which I don't wish on anyone".
So take it with a grain of salt when anyone tells you what you should do, and realize it happens so fast, you have no time to plan what you would do. Instinct takes over,and your ability to read people and hopefully do it well enough to survive. That's what it's all about, surviving. Sorry for the speech.

 

[grampajack]

My Dad will not carry one in the chamber and I have told him and told him. He doesn't like that I do but I walk with a cane and I have told him I am already at a disadvantage with one hand being occupied I won't have time to draw, drop my cane, then try and chamber a round, that is one second too long in a gun fight, so I carry in a holster, chambered ready to go. He likes to carry his Glock 19, but I have told him if you won't carry chambered stick your .38 snub nose in your pocket holster at least you are ready to go right off the bat. My late father-in-law shot, and carried about every handgun ever made at one time or another but would not carry his 1911 chambered.

1911s with those newfangled extended ambidextrous safeties make me nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. All you have to do is lean against something or hit it with your arm and voila you're carrying a single action hair trigger with a loaded chamber.

Anyone who's nervous carrying locked and loaded probably ought to stick to revolvers like you said, or better yet get a good DA/SA with a decocker. Pretty much any European manufacturer is going to offer several of that variety. Or he would probably really like an HK P7, although they are admittedly very expensive.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I cut and paste this for the discussion. (Sourced at end)

All you need to know about Israeli carry is that the only reason the Israelis did it was that when they formed their armed services they were using a hodge podge of various arms sourced from anywhere they could get guns. That meant that no single training program could be implemented to adequately address the various safety features of each type of arm. So they went with the only thing that was standard across the board, racking the slide.

The Israelis don't Israeli carry anymore.

training schools are run by know it all blowhards who charge a lot and make you think you will be fighting for your life every time you step out of your house.

"It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool, than to talk and remove all doubt of it."

And so, I'll just leave this thread instead of risking the ire of the moderators, but my parting thought will be thus: So far, the proponents of empty chamber carry are a man who just said< "Force on Force training, what's that" and a man that thinks professional training is a scam.

I'll leave everyone else with my original challenge, find a school, a reputable one with an actual client base not a collection of lunatics with a youtube channel, that teaches empty chamber carry.

Ponder on why you can't find any.

 

[salt&battery]

1911s with those newfangled extended ambidextrous safeties make me nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. All you have to do is lean against something or hit it with your arm and voila you're carrying a single action hair trigger with a loaded chamber.

Anyone who's nervous carrying locked and loaded probably ought to stick to revolvers like you said, or better yet get a good DA/SA with a decocker. Pretty much any European manufacturer is going to offer several of that variety. Or he would probably really like an HK P7, although they are admittedly very expensive.

" nervous as a cat in room full of rocking chairs" now that is a good one

 

[old lady new shooter]

Having lived through an incident 2 times when guns were pointed at me and put to my head, I swore I would never again let someone decide when I die. I would always take the shot if I had the oppertunity. Carrying empty is giving the bad guy the say so as to when you meet your maker. I want to be able to decide that on my own. If I go I 'm taking a few with me. Even if someone has a gun pointed at you, there is a good chance that you will get the oppertunity to respond, if they knew you had a gun you would already be dead. That type of criminal would never stick up an armed person, "they have told me this" on several occasions, thus you have a split second, as in the video to react. no one says you are going to live if you comply.

Recently a video was posted here (actually for the second time) where a guy trying to rob a gun store was shot dead by I think the owner. The would-be robber came in with his gun drawn, the owner had to draw his, nevertheless succeeded in taking out the BG. So I think the "never draw on a drawn gun" rule at least isn't hard and fast. BTW that owner was amazingly fast.

 

[Tcruse]

For me, the chance of a ND is extremely small IFF you have the correct holster, both for safe handling during draw/carry and for the re-holster operation. I suspect that most of the ND problems are during the "re-holster" operation, especially with guns like the Glock where clothing can become tangled and cause the trigger to be pulled. The good news it that there should never be a rush in that operation since there is no threat at that point in the game.

 

[Tcruse]

I have never heard of it. Where can a person get such training? Thanks...... (I seriously doubt that my friends have had this either)

In this area, just about every range offers tactical classes that cover such things. It is really a good idea to have documented training should every have to tell a jury why you did X and not Y.

 

[grampajack]

" nervous as a cat in room full of rocking chairs" now that is a good one

That's the PG version of a more colorful expression we're fond of down here in the southern parts.

 

[Tcruse]

1911s with those newfangled extended ambidextrous safeties make me nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. All you have to do is lean against something or hit it with your arm and voila you're carrying a single action hair trigger with a loaded chamber.

Anyone who's nervous carrying locked and loaded probably ought to stick to revolvers like you said, or better yet get a good DA/SA with a decocker. Pretty much any European manufacturer is going to offer several of that variety. Or he would probably really like an HK P7, although they are admittedly very expensive.

OK, lets suppose that the manual safety on the 1911 gets turned off because your holster did not cover the "right" side safety lever.
It still will not fire unless you also have the "grip" safety turned of by you gripping the gun. So, to have an ND you have to have three things in error.
1) Manual Safety not set
2) You grabbing the grip
3) Your holster not protecting the trigger.

There are lots of good holsters, fine one that works for you to protect you from such problems.

(PS I am not found of ambidextrous controls on any gun, if you are left handed have a gun with controls designed for left handed use)

 

[entropy]

If there's no rond under the hammer or firing pin it's almost impossible to have an accidental discharge.

Or a deliberate one when it's needed.

(PS I am not found of ambidextrous controls on any gun, if you are left handed have a gun with controls designed for left handed use)

And what if one is ambidexterous?

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Gun handling 101 folks.

Follow the four rules, handle and use your firearms regularly and there's ZERO reason not to carry with a round ready to go.


I think a big reason folks carry cold is a lack of intimacy with their firearm. There are probably more people out there than I would care to admit to that simply purchase a gun. load it and put it in a holster/pocket/purse and carry. Not having spent any time getting to know it or use it.

 

[JO JO]

I think a big reason folks carry cold is a lack of intimacy with their firearm. There are probably more people out there than I would care to admit to that simply purchase a gun. load it and put it in a holster/pocket/purse and carry. Not having spent any time getting to know it or use it.

I believe this to be a fact

 

[Old Dog]

This thread sure got out of control.

I'm seeing that we apparently have some members here who not only haven't kept up with what's available in the world of firearms training but don't seem to understand the need to actually train with one's chosen firearm.

Someone else said:
"I read Col Hackworths book and he saw so many guys accidentally shot with 1911's he tried to get the higher ups to issue a different safer pistol. but then again what does he know. I am sure an instructor knows more"
I'll have to go back and reread the book. I sure don't remember that.

 

[grampajack]

OK, lets suppose that the manual safety on the 1911 gets turned off because your holster did not cover the "right" side safety lever.
It still will not fire unless you also have the "grip" safety turned of by you gripping the gun. So, to have an ND you have to have three things in error.
1) Manual Safety not set
2) You grabbing the grip
3) Your holster not protecting the trigger.

There are lots of good holsters, fine one that works for you to protect you from such problems.

(PS I am not found of ambidextrous controls on any gun, if you are left handed have a gun with controls designed for left handed use)

There's a definite pucker factor when you take off your gun at the end of the day only to realize you've been carrying hot with the safety off for God only knows how many hours. But yes, you're absolutely right that other mistakes would most likely have to follow for a negligent discharge to occur. Probably the biggest danger would be if you had to draw it and the safety was already off. You would be trying to disengage it not realizing it was already all the way down. In any case, it's never a good thing when your safety comes off without you knowing it.

 

[salt&battery]

That's the PG version of a more colorful expression we're fond of down here in the southern parts.

I knew you were from the south lol. I worked down there with an old guy when two yuppies pulled up to us and asked directions. he said ... it is about 3 miles as the crow flies hindered by buckshot. that guy was so funny I wish I could remember more of his lines

 

[salt&battery]

This thread sure got out of control.

I'm seeing that we apparently have some members here who not only haven't kept up with what's available in the world of firearms training but don't seem to understand the need to actually train with one's chosen firearm.

Someone else said:
"I read Col Hackworths book and he saw so many guys accidentally shot with 1911's he tried to get the higher ups to issue a different safer pistol. but then again what does he know. I am sure an instructor knows more"
I'll have to go back and reread the book. I sure don't remember that.

in fact with all that was in that book that stuck in my mind among other things. of course if you a fan of the 1911 and I am you may have not wanted to remember it.

 

[Kleanbore]

I can rack the slide on a 1911 while drawing just as fast as if one in the chamber.

I suppose that that is theoretically possible, but most people cannot,

It also hinges on two assumptions: the ability to use both hands, and feeding perfectly every time when doing that fast and under stress with the gun in whatever attitude that may be required.

I would never want to bet on such conditions.

I do not carry or even want to.

That's not the issue here.

I read Col Hackworths book and he saw so many guys accidentally shot with 1911's he tried to get the higher ups to issue a different safer pistol.

The question at hand is whet to carry with a loaded chamber. Is there something about the 1911 that might impinge upon th esubject?

 

[grampajack]

I knew you were from the south lol. I worked down there with an old guy when two yuppies pulled up to us and asked directions. he said ... it is about 3 miles as the crow flies hindered by buckshot. that guy was so funny I wish I could remember more of his lines

We can't decide if we're in the south, the midwest, or the southwest. Suffice it to say we're the most metropolitan Indian-blooded rednecks you ever did see.