Former Sheriff Deputy Advising Carrying on Empty Chamber

[Deanimator]

Here in Ohio not too long ago, a couple of drug addled ignoramuses jumped a guy pumping gas in a Dayton service station.

They hit him from front and rear simultaneously, and it was all he could do to hold them off until he could draw. He shot one of them twice in the abdomen and the other took off.

By the victim's own admission, if he hadn't been carrying with a round in the chamber, his assailants probably would have prevailed, leaving them with his gun, and him at their mercy.

A deadly force situation is dangerous and complicated enough. Why create a disadvantage for yourself and an advantage for your wouldbe killer by carrying with an empty chamber?

 

[hariph creek]

Reminds me of people who don't wear their seatbelts. Using the profound logic..."if I'm about to get in an accident, I'll pull it on real quick!"

 

[Cosmoline]

For some reason my mind does well with big movements, but sucks with little switches and doo-dads. If I carried SA I'd absolutely go with nothing in the pipe and just rack the slide. But instead I just use a revolver or a semi that does not rely on a safety switch.

 

[PRM]

Just personal experience, I've been an LEO for 36 years, the last 15 have been as a firearms instructor at our state academy. That's just plain nutts, I've never heard of any law enforcement academy in the US teaching that.

 

[johnandersonoutdoors]

Thanks for the thoughts everyone. I will probably show my friend some instructional videos and thoughts by others on carrying with one in the chamber and let him make up his own mind.

When he told me that this morning, I didn't want to just blurt out that I thought his former sheriff buddy was nuts.

I personally carry an M&P9 with no safeties on it and one in the chamber. Maybe I am crazy, but I am confident that my raven concealment holster completely covers the trigger area and it is safe to carry a semi with one in the chamber.

 

[gamestalker]

How ridiculous! I know the older revolvers were prone to AD's if dropped on the hammer, so carrying on an empty cylinder was considered a safety thing. But as for carrying an AL pistol with an empty chamber, is just going to slow the process of SD dramatically. But to think that LE would teach, or do this, is ridiculous.

GS

 

[Extreme moderate]

There's a very effective and inexpensive way to demonstrate the issues with this to your friend, assuming that you're both in decent health. Get a magic marker (preferably red), an airsoft pistol that requires racking the slide before firing, and an old tshirt. Have your friend wear the old tshirt and put the airsoft (un-racked) in his waistband. Start five feet away with the cap off of the magic marker. Using it as a "knife," see what kind of artwork you can draw on the old tshirt he's wearing before he can rack the slide... And afterward, see if he was fond of any organs lying underneath the artwork. Just a thought

 

[Risky]

The truth is if you can't be trusted carrying with a chambered round... you probably shouldn't be carrying at all.

However, most people that go condition 3 do so because they lack confidence in their skills and/or familiarity with their pistol. Training solves both.

Carry condition one and know that you're safer by doing so... not in more danger.

 

[Shovelhead]

Another Deputy Sheriff that recomends carrying with an empty chamber.

Better yet, keep your ammunition in your shirt pocket.

 

[zoom6zoom]

Only if it's a Single Action Army....

 

[GEM]

I've always thought unchambered carry was ridiculous after breaking my wrist and being in a serious cast for awhile and also taking an injured shooter class.

Why handicap yourself?

So here's a funny anecdote on the issue also. At the IDPA match we had a stage, where you started with your gun unchambered and next to a sink where you were washing your hands (a big bowl of water). At the buzzer, you had to grab the gun and rack it.

Well, some folks wiped their hands before the rack and then went on. I was concerned about time (duh) and immediately went for the rack. Well, the sun screen on my paws and the water turned Teflon and my hand just slide off the slick slide with a partial grip - causing a malfunction. Try to clear in, just slide off, - couldn't put the gun down, so I had to wipe my hands on my pants, one at a time. Then clear a nasty double feed on a 1911.

My time was enough for the dinosaurs to become extinct. Bah.

Point is that you can screw up a rack - blood on your hands, for instance.

 

[beatledog7]

Every conceivable SD situation that requires that I draw and in all likelihood fire has me doing that without time to chamber a round. I would not carry on an empty chamber unless required to by ROE (been there, done that).

 

[58limited]

Carrying on an empty chamber is crazy. I carry a .380 in my glove box when traveling: round in chamber and safety off until I reach my destination, then safety on. If something happens on the road I don't want any encumbrance if I'm trying to drive with one hand and grab the gun with the other, I don't even want to fumble with the safety in a sudden tense situation.

 

[Rock185]

johnanderson, An old guy's .02 worth. I know I'm probably not as bright as your friend's former deputy sheriff friend and I don't pretend to be a Ninja/Combat Master/"Operator',etc. That being said, I have been in LE most of my adult life, am a firearms instructor, have had many contacts with other LE organizations , their officers and instructors, have trained at Gunsite, 10-8, etc. and have NEVER encountered any instructor or organization teaching to carry with an empty chamber. I am aware of the Israeli empty chamber carry, etc. I can say with certainty though that one may not have both hands free to feed a round into an empty chamber, and, hand cycling a round into the empty chamber in a dynamic, violent, and obviously stressful, situation is just asking for a failure of that round to properly chamber. I always had a round chambered,but can speak to the predicament of not having both hands free during a sudden violent encounter with an armed suspect. I have personally experienced that...ymmv

 

[Texshooter]

Perhaps

after talking with this new gun owner, the former LEO saw or heard something that made him think it would be in EVERYONES best interest if this person started out in C3?

Maybe until he feels more confident carrying, or has more training, or something else.

 

[Deer_Freak]

We don't know the situation. The particular person might have appeared to be clumsy with a gun. Not having made a decision should I carry with a round in the chamber certainly would lead the officer to believe the person had little or no experience with a gun. I would advise someone who has no experience with guns other than the class to get a carry permit to carry the gun without a shell in the chamber.

 

[Cee Zee]

Carrying a revolver on an empty chamber is not the same as carrying an auto with no round in the pipe. You'll still get off a round if you pull the trigger on that revolver. It just won't go off if you drop it on the hammer. So for someone really paranoid about carrying that is the best route to go. The only downside is you'll be carrying one less round in the cylinder.

But between carrying a semi-auto with no round in the chamber and carrying a assisted opening knife I'll take the knife for any conflict inside of 10 feet. It's much easier to flick that release button than it is to rack a slide and hope nothing goes wrong from stress. And a good pocket knife can do significant damage to a bad guy. But of course what I really do is carry a semi-auto with a round in the tube and ready to rock.

I don't really see a big problem with carrying an auto with a SA trigger either. With enough training releasing a safety becomes second nature. I know under stress that has to be engrained in the brain. That's a big reason I like to stick with one carry weapon at a time. I have backups of course and some are DA and some are SA with safeties. I want to be ready with whatever I'm carrying without having to think about it. That time you take to think can get you killed.

I actually like SA pistols. To me I feel like I can get off a round quicker when releasing a safety and pulling a SA trigger over using a long pull DA trigger. It's close either way but second shots definitely are advantage SA. I can fire about twice as fast using a SA trigger once I get to the second shot. That's particularly helpful if you're facing more than one bad guy. Heck I sat through an armed robbery where there were 6 guys with guns inside a McDonalds and another guy outside that no one saw. I was sitting near the front door where hardly anyone comes in. I was one table away from that door in fact. And the moron sitting at the table next to the door decided to play hero and jumped up and ran out that door. The good Lord was watching out for me that night because not one of the bad guys saw him. If they had me and my wife would have been sitting ducks for six shooters shooting my way from up at the counter and another bozo outside creating a crossfire. That was before concealed carry unfortunately. But if I did have a pistol I would have wanted a SA. Yeah there's very little chance going up against seven guys in a crossfire. The only thing worse I can think of is being a sitting duck with a seven man crossfire.

 

[alsaqr]

The former deputy can carry his gun any way he likes too. i'll continue to carry mine in condition 1.

 

[SouthernBoy]

A few months ago, a rather spirited discussion about this very topic ensued on GlockTalk.com. I am giving the link if you are interested. Suffice it to say that a number of self-imagined gun gurus had a good time educating the masses in their lofty "knowledge?" (what is it they say about opinions??). I was a little dumbstruck at some of the responses and tried to advance the idea that it was a personal decision.

The answer to the question of whether or not you should carry a semi-automatic handgun with a chambered round will be answered should you ever find yourself in immediate and extreme need of your handgun. And even then, you will only know if your decision was correct or wrong for that specific case.... if you survive.

My opinion is simple. It is entirely a personal matter and a personal choice. I do carry chambered and wouldn't dream of doing otherwise. But I see nothing wrong with someone who chooses not to do this as it is their well being at stake... not mine. Let them do as they see fit. Chances are, they will live out their life with never having to use their firearm and be convinced their decision was correct.

Most of the responders here have offered very good and valid reasons to carry chambered and I agree with all of them. I do not trust that an incident will happen like in the movies or on TV where you so frequently see police or citizens racking their slides as they go off to confront evil doers. No sir, only a fool would think this and evil people do not suffer fools. One should always consider the worse case scenario and work backward from that. Otherwise you will be left trying to catch the curve. But there is also this.

You never know what you're going to do in an extreme encounter until it is actually staring you in the face, unless you have similar experience from past encounters. So as someone here mentioned, why on earth would you hamper yourself of such an important factor of gun carrying when seconds and distance could be in extremely short order?

Hard to imagine an LEO dispersing this sort of information to all who would listen. It would be very interesting to hear how he carried his duty gun.

 

[PabloJ]

Hey everyone,

I was talking with a coworker this morning who is fairly new to owning guns. He visited fam and friends last weekend back in Ohio.

One of his friends is a former sheriff deputy. Of course they spent some time talking about guns and such. My coworker got his conceal permit and is planning on a .380 I think. Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

I feel like his is joking with my friend because that sounds so ridiculous. Is that taught in any police academies?

Personally I carried with empty chamber for a little while on my M&P9 but have changed that practice. I can't imagine law enforcement doing it.

I guess it is personal choice and some law enforcement do it? Apparently the former sheriff deputy mentioned the benefit that if someone grabs his gun it won't fire because it the chamber is empty. That could definitely save your life in a situation where your gun is taken from you but I never thought for a second LEO would carry empty.

It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it. It's hard to believe but certain pistols like 1911, FN-HP and Tokarev have been designed to be carried with empty chamber. That is part of the reason I do not like them.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Posted by: PabloJ
It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it. It's hard to believe but certain pistols like 1911, FN-HP and Tokarev have been designed to be carried with empty chamber. That is part of the reason I do not like them.

You can carry virtually any semi-auto pistol with an empty chamber and I fail to see how a 1911 was designed for this (please do cite, if you will). I know of no pistol that cannot be carried in less than full battery.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Posted by: rondog
Personally, any semi-auto that has a manual safety, I'll carry with one in the chamber. Pistols like Glocks, I don't trust 'em and don't own any. Anything that has a striker that cocks upon chambering and I have no way to lock that striker, makes me nervous. A 1911 cocked and locked makes me happy. A DA revolver makes me happy. A DA semi-auto with a thumb safety and a hammer makes me happy. I prefer handguns with controls on them.

Glocks have three safeties; one external and two internal. Frankly the external safety, their trigger safety, is a joke in my opinion. But their two internal safeties work beautifully as designed, and both "lock" the striker unless the user deliberately unlocks them by pulling the trigger.

 

[r1derbike]

Perhaps the former LEO dispensing this poor advice was trained to carry a single round in his shirt pocket?

Hey, if it was good enough for Barney Fife!

 

[rondog]

rondog,

what about DA/SA striker-fired auto with decocker?

Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

If it has a hammer, and the decocker de-cocks the hammer, then it's not striker-fired, the hammer strikes a firing pin. To make it ready you simply disengage the safety/decocker and cock the hammer again. My PA-63 and Bersa Thunder .380 are like this, and I'll carry them with confidence.

I have a couple of .32 autos, a 1914 Mauser and a French MAB Model C. While both have safeties, they're striker fired with no hammers and the safeties only block the triggers, AFAIK. To the best of my knowledge, on both pistols the striker could be knocked off the sear, and the pistol could fire, even with the safety engaged. At least that's how it appears to me - I don't know those pistols well enough to trust them yet. I could be totally wrong.

And Glocks - I've never touched a Glock or any other similar pistol of the newer generations. All I know is if it doesn't have a hammer, and the only visible safety is a little flipper thing on the trigger itself, that makes me nervous. I've heard of too many "accidents" with Glocks going off because something got inside the trigger guard.

There was a cop here in my area that shot himself in the leg with his Glock, he was holstering it at the range and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as the gun went in the holster, defeating the trigger safety and depressing the trigger. BANG.

 

[rondog]

FWIW - I prefer a 1911....chambered, cocked and locked, or "Condition 1". Clicking that safety off is very natural. I can disengage the safety on a 1911 as it's clearing the holster or as I'm bringing it up to bear, long before I can even see the sights. Or I can leave it engaged and keep my thumb on it, ready to disengage it in a split second. There's no thinking about it or looking for it, it's right under my thumb where it should be.

Second choice is either the PA-63 or Bersa .380 I mentioned above, also chambered, with the hammer down and the safety disengaged. They both have stiff enough DA triggers to be safe to carry like this, yet ready to fire in an instant.

Third choice is a DA revolver with a transfer bar to prevent firing from accidental hammer strikes such as dropping. Don't get much simpler than these, just draw and squeeze. I currently only have a S&W Model 49 snubbie w/5 shots, but have one of those Model 10 trade-ins ordered from Bud's.

Also have a "Spesco" DA .38 that's a bottom-shelf Taurus brand clone of a S&W, but that's not for carrying - that one's for hiding in the garage. Works fine, just not very accurate and I don't want anyone seeing me with it. Kinda like riding a moped or dating a fat girl.