Hint to BATF: Double check your warrant!

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Pilgrim

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Supreme Court examines police liability for faulty warrant

By ANNE GEARAN, Associated Press
(Published Tuesday, November 4, 2003, 3:47 PM)

WASHINGTON (AP) - Federal agents were looking for a rocket launcher and automatic weapons when they pulled up to a house on a rural Montana ranch, but the warrant they carried mentioned nothing about the suspected cache.
The omission was a mistake by Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Agent Jeff Groh, and it could cost him. Unless the Supreme Court says otherwise, Groh will face a lawsuit for damages for violating the constitutional rights of Joseph and Julia Ramirez, who lived on Moose Creek Ranch.

During a lively argument session Tuesday, several justices seemed unwilling to let Groh off the hook.

The Constitution's Fourth Amendment bans "unreasonable searches and seizures," and requires that police have probable cause to get a warrant. Warrants, the amendment says, must be supported by an affidavit and must "particularly describ(e) the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

"Why not just apply the constitutional provisions?" Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked Groh's lawyer. "Why couldn't the agent be responsible for checking the warrant?"

The 1997 search followed a tip about illegal grenades and other weaponry. The search warrant should have listed the weapons or other items agents were looking for. Instead, it contained only a description of the Ramirez house.

Lawyer Richard Cordray told the justices that while the warrant itself omitted mention of weapons, all the specifics were listed on the affidavit used to win court approval of the search.

Justice David Souter was unimpressed.

The affidavit, he noted dryly, was back at the courthouse while agents were knocking on the door.

Then it was Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg's turn.

"Here's a house, and there's no bound at all" on what police can look for or what they can seize, she said. "It looks like just what the Fourth Amendment was supposed to address."

Justice Antonin Scalia, a stickler for the exact wording of the Constitution, nonetheless tried to help Cordray dig out of a deepening hole. The case is less about the bad warrant than what the Ramirezes can do about it now, Scalia pointed out.

The Ramirez family sued Groh and others in federal court, alleging the search was unconstitutional and seeking financial damages.

Law officers are ordinarily immune from suits over their conduct on duty, but the high court has allowed exceptions when the officer violated someone's constitutional rights.

The question this time is whether the faulty warrant opened the door for a suit when there was no specific previous case that would have put Groh on notice that he was at risk.

The Bush administration supports Groh, arguing that a clerical error made in good faith should not leave federal agents personally vulnerable to a lawsuit.

A federal judge dismissed the suit on grounds that the law enforcement officers were immune, but the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reinstated the claim against Groh.

The appeals court said Groh violated the Fourth Amendment's guarantee against unreasonable searches and seizures and was thus unprotected from being sued. Groh led the investigation and had a special obligation to reread the warrant for errors, the appeals court said.

The case is Groh v. Ramirez, 02-811.

http://www.fresnobee.com/24hour/nation/story/1044101p-7337339c.html
 
The question this time is whether the faulty warrant opened the door for a suit when there was no specific previous case that would have put Groh on notice that he was at risk.
So, unless some other poor schlub has been violated, and forced to sue for relief, and won a judgement in that case, and that case was upheald on appeal, the Constitution, and specifically the Fourth Amendment, is invalid and has no force of law up to that point?:what:

I sure get real tired of that "standing" crap.
 
The Ramirez family lives on "a remote Montana ranch". Like Burt Grubber, they probably just want to be left the heck alone.

I'm sorry to read that Bush enjoys using the Constitution as toilet paper.
 
The question this time is whether the faulty warrant opened the door for a suit when there was no specific previous case that would have put Groh on notice that he was at risk.
:confused: So federal agents get one "free one"?

The Bush administration supports Groh, arguing that a clerical error made in good faith should not leave federal agents personally vulnerable to a lawsuit.
Perhaps the Ramirezes made a gun ownership error in good faith, and therefore should not be personally vulnerable to prosecution. Oh, yeah, the double standard. Sorry... :barf:

Based solely on this article, I predict the vote will go O'Connor, Souter and Ginsburg for the Ramirezes, and the rest (the self-proclaimed "original intenters") for the fed.

We should also take note which court of appeals upheld the Ramirez' suit.
 
The Constitution's Fourth Amendment bans "unreasonable searches and seizures," and requires that police have probable cause to get a warrant. Warrants, the amendment says, must be supported by an affidavit and must "particularly describ(e) the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Says O'Connor:
"Why not just apply the constitutional provisions?" Justice Sandra Day O'Connor asked Groh's lawyer. "Why couldn't the agent be responsible for checking the warrant?"

Says Ginsburg:
"Here's a house, and there's no bound at all" on what police can look for or what they can seize, she said. "It looks like just what the Fourth Amendment was supposed to address."


Seems pretty clear to me. It says what it means and it means what it says.

Now, about that 2nd amendment.....
 
Perhaps I missed it somewhere, but did they seize anything or find anything illegal?

More than likely they found abosulutely nothing, otherwise they would be argueing that whatever found would have to be admissable as evidence in a criminal case.

Good Shooting
Red
 
If they had found anything, the Ramirezes would A) be arguing that the evidence obtained were illegal in this suit, in addition to damages and B) the BATF would've cooked up a plea agreement or a dismissal in exchange for them to drop their suit.
 
That pesky Declaration of Independence

Let's compare and contrast:
A federal judge dismissed the suit on grounds that the law enforcement officers were immune,
with:
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
 
The Bush administration supports Groh, arguing that a clerical error made in good faith should not leave federal agents personally vulnerable to a lawsuit.
Clerical errors on warrants get the wrong people arrested, the wrong doors kicked in, the wrong people killed.
It really scares me to find myself agreeing with the 9th Circus Court, Souter, O'Conner, and Rube Ginsburg:what:
 
Last time I checked, you had to have a list of items to be seized in the affidavit, and definately have that affidavit with you when it is served.

Who's the judge or magistrate that read it over? Seems that they missed something.
 
Fed, old F Troop tactic: conduct raid with no warrant. At the time you are inside the residence, fill in items on blank warrant or use telephone to fill in warrant with agents waiting outside judge's chambers. ATF also uses falsified or fictional items to be seized (Waco biggest example).
 
BATF Lost the case...

CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, CRIMINAL LAW & PROCEDURE

GROH v. RAMIREZ, No. 02-811 (U.S.S.C. February 24, 2004)
The search of plaintiffs' ranch was clearly unreasonable under the
Fourth Amendment. The warrant was plainly invalid, failing to
describe with particularity the items to be seized; because it did
not describe these items at all, the search was presumptively
unreasonable; defendant, who prepared and executed the warrant, is
not entitled to qualified immunity because no reasonable officer
could believe such a warrant to be valid.

To read the full text of this opinion, go to:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-811

Oh yeah, how it all started:

n February 1997, a concerned citizen informed petitioner that on a number of visits to respondents' ranch the visitor had seen a large stock of weaponry, including an automatic rifle, grenades, a grenade launcher, and a rocket launcher.
 
Nice. I hope they sue him for $37 million.


I dunno, I just like the sound of that number.


An excellent case of "pour encourager les autres." (To encourage the others.)

Now, if we could have erected a gallows outside Waco...

visions of Janet Sterno swingin' in the breeze with buzzards at her eyes...
 
hmm....and is that "concerned citizen" in jail for false report? Mayhap our BATFk buddy, distressed at losing his job, will hunt down this liar, this filth, this attacker of an honest gunowner (or nongunowner) and beat the living tar out of him?

This could be a really nice case all around. :D
 
What's the amount the treasury has? That is the amount of the suit. Lawyer tries it for the media exposure. BATFE, FBI, DEA, all fired because of no funding. Harsh examples need to be made here.
 
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