HK drops USC

[Panzerschwein]

Also about H&K, I live but an hour from the factory in Germany but apparently they don't offer any tours or anything. Lame.

 

[SilentScream]

Again I have to say, had you made that comparison in 1978 in the days of the HK4 & P9S then yeah you'd have a point. However look at the USP (around since 1993) has been widely used by police depts. around the U.S. not to mention the MP5.
As far as it's use in Competition, comp. shooters are in my experience the biggest bunch of parrots I can think of. What I mean by that is whatever gear the top guy(s) are using is what the rest all go out and buy whether it works for them or not, they all seem to go out in buy it. I personally have shot matches using the P30 & HK45 (SSP) with excellent results.

 

[Sam1911]

Yeah, like I said, just my impression of them. If I was a SEAL operator in 1985 I'd probably have a different view.

 

[gunnutery]

When I first got into college for law enforcement, the USP was a potential cntender and was included in our firearms course along with Beretta92s, S&W 5906s, Glocks and Rugers. Of all of those, Glocks obviously won out the market and since then, the sub guns have begun to subside. A very small number of G36s remaining in usage. I would tend to agree that in the US market, HK is becoming more obscure as time moves on.

I can see that HK would be hesitant to set up shop in the US, but even before Obama took office, the gun industry was hopping. If they didn't do it then, it'll be decades before they have another window without worrying about US politics.

 

[MAKster]

Boutique firearms might be a better description. The MP5 is one of the most famous submachine guns in the world because of movies and TV, but almost none of them exist in the commercial market.

 

[David E]

I didn't realize that "USC" is an acronym for: "Un Sellable Carbine".........

NOW it makes sense!

 

[barnbwt]

Also about H&K, I live but an hour from the factory in Germany but apparently they don't offer any tours or anything. Lame

Why am I not suprised? Does anyone else find it weird that, for a brand as aloof* as H&K, they market their un-sellable products so hard? You always see MP5 and UMPs in video games, Mk23s in every holster, usually even see the little red logo. Why? Is it really making them money? Do LEO/.mil procurers truly make their decisions off of video game performances (I'm guessing at least some do)? Or do the game companies pay H&K to use their products? Why would they, since, as has been said, their use in LEO/.mil applications is more limited than their marketing would indicated?

At least when Gucci markets their stuff and prices it high, you can still actually buy it if you're so inclined. With H&K, it's like they've built up their fancy reputation just to confound US citizens for the hell of it

TCB

*Inaccessible products, reputed poor customer service, inexplicable high prices; what else would you call them?

 

[barnbwt]

I just had a wild thought, bear with me:

H&K desperately wants to sell mil-spec stuff to civies, but their stupid government laws won't let them. So they fight back the only way they know how; use some of their (I'm guessing) substantial government subsidy dollars to fund ridiculously unprofitable ventures like the USC.

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it . Looking at their product catalogue; I notice that they haven't developed many new platforms since their rise in the '70s...

TCB

 

[SFCRandall]

In thirty years I have never seen one of their products at the range or in the field. I don't know anyone who has ever owned or even fired one. As mentioned previously, they're mostly seen in movies and video games.

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

they're mostly seen in movies and video games.

I'm sure they pay video game makers to include their offerings. This way people who want a UMP wind up buying a USC and a UMP parts kit to put one together.

A buddy of mine has a UMP (he has a SOT), but I prefer his .22 M-16.

I know a lot of people who like to stroke their H&K pistols, but none of them can shoot them better than I can shoot my glock.

 

[PGT]

Yeah, like I said, just my impression of them. If I was a SEAL operator in 1985 I'd probably have a different view.

MP7's were used on the UBL raid

 

[RLTW]

Ive visited the factory in Germany. They might be priced higher than most products but they have always been fantastic in my experience. The proofing process and quality control measures are amazing. Last time I stopped by the Brits had just sent over their FN MAGs (our 240b) to be reworked by HK. That's a statement.

I am not ashamed to admit I appreciate HK... don't think this is going to be another P7 one day though.

 

[browningguy]

Well I love my USC, 10 round mags and all. It's the best shooting pistol caliber carbine ever made.

 

[gunnutery]

Don't get me wrong either, I appriciate HKs products as well and see them as well made quality products. My department has a UMP and I think it's a great gun, but it's fallen out of favor with the brass for some reason. The problem is that they seem unattainable even if they're in stock. The cost doesn't seem to match the end use, at least for most. I looked up hkparts.com again today. The prices for UMP conversion parts are astronomical. I think the price point alone was the major setback for a lot of people, and when you alienate a lot of people, it's kind of counter productive to sales and marketing.

 

[nwilliams]

I had one years ago, it was fun but I got bored with it and didn't want to put any money into doing a conversion on it. The skeleton stock thing was what really did it for me and the lack of anything more than 10 round mags at the time I had mine.

One thing I never understood about the USC or the SL-8 is why they stayed neutered even after HK began making guns here in the US. They could have made these guns in the US and redesigned them without the mag capacity limit and thumbhole stock but I guess that was too much trouble for them. If they had made a decent semi clone of the UMP and G36 they would have sold a lot better.

 

[HKGuns]

Yeah HK makes garbage, which is why DEVGRU carried the 416 and several 45CT's were along for the ride as well, when our favorite terrorist was taken out.

 

[NWCP]

I've owned and enjoyed a HK USC for 13 years. It's accurate, well made and has never failed me. I'm sorry to see them drop the carbine. I also own a HK91 and 7 of their handguns. A HK is worth every penny of you'll spend on it. Folks gripe about their cost, but they generally have never owned one and quite often have never even fired one. The Germans build excellent weapons. They always have and IMHO always will. The USC was a perfect cabine for my purpose at the time. I wanted a carbine that used the same ammo as my carry piece, a HK USP45 compact. It fit the bill nicely. At the time I was able to pick mine up new for just over $900. Money well spent.

 

[taliv]

i bought one a long time ago when i lived in a city and only had access to an indoor range. SBR'd it and did the early UMP conversion but still single stack with grease gun mags.

it was a great little carbine. had a ton of recoil though. very quick to shoot and extremely accurate.

i eventually sold it though, as ARs do the job a little better.

pity HK doesn't know how to market to civilians

 

[kBob]

Back in the 1970s You could buy German guns in Germany for about half what they went for in the US. A Walther employee told me that was because the US had about an 85 percent tariff on German guns in response to a German tariff on American guns.

If I lived in Germany an hour away from Oberndorf am Naker I would join a traditional German Shooting club and be polite and nice and at somepoint let it be known I would like to do some factory visits. I was invited to HK in 1975 ( also Styer in Austria) but duty kept me away as I was a lower Enlisted man at the time with no real control over when I got off.

Had standing invite to Walther and was told I could go to Anshutz (main German shooting buddy was a test target shooter at Annie)if I asked but again it just never happened......makes me want to kick myself these days.

All those invites and offers came through folks in my club.

Re MP5s I shot them in various models (both originals and modified HK94 carbines) and they were fun and seemed a good Police carbine....but an aquantence that saw them used on Grenada said they failed miserably in Infantry Combat. They were in limited use by crew served weapons folks in the Ranger Battalion and the 82nd

The later HK sub guns and carbines just looked too much like plastic toys for my taste, besides the costs.

-kBob

 

[barnbwt]

pity HK doesn't know how to market to civilians

Ah, buy they do, and very effectively, might I add. I'll bet every new shooter in the States looking for a black gun tries to find an HK to look at, before realizing they don't exist. I remember being very puzzled by the absence of a UMP, MP5, or G36 semi auto out there, and more confused that they bothered to sell the neutered versions at all.

TCB

 

[TCBPATRIOT]

My shooting buddy has an unhealthy HK obsession. He has a Flemming sear 3 MP5s, 53, 2 MR556 w/416 uppers(that HK is still trying to buy back) a UMP conversion, and waiting on his stamp to get approved for his G36 build. Aside from the MP5 and 53, I don't understand what they do better than more widely available and cheaper platforms. I carried an MP5 in Africa for about 4 months. I bought a vector 53 even with the SBR stamp and stock I'm still at less than half the cost of his. And you can't tell the difference between them. Sorry I've been so long winded but HK designs great guns but doesn't know how to cater to multiple markets.

 

[Redlg155]

I've owned two of them in my lifetime and doubt that I will ever own another. One a standard and the other a.UMP conversion. They were fun and expensive to shoot and other than being really neat, did nothing really special.

And I lost money on both in resale. Dealers in my area sell them for $13-$1600, but then say that they get them for $900 when you want to trade in.

 

[SilentScream]

I don't understand what they do better than more widely available and cheaper platforms.

The "better" is in the materials. You see there is a different philosophy in Germany. By that I mean they don't settle for good enough; which sadly many American and other foreign manufacturers have done. Something else to consider is HK has either invented/popularized/perfected many of the features we take for granted on most production guns. A couple of examples being the common accessory rail on pretty much every hand gun made today & the piston driven AR among others. All of this engineering/development costs $$$$$

 

[barnbwt]

The "better" is in the materials.

I thought the "better" was in the workmanship. I also find it somewhat difficult to fathom that H&K is still paying off R&D for stuff they pioneered in the '70s, made a killing on the world over, and have been (by comparison) coasting since. Who knows, maybe their internal budgets are as rich as the prices they charge, and they really aren't making a profit on their designs?

My (actual) theory about H&K is that they were an innovative and dynamic company, who became completely enmeshed with the bureaucratic entities they did the lion's share of their business with, and have become paralyzed with inefficiency within them. You see this trend all the time in military-industrial complex corporations. Why spend so much more money on a new polymer composite that is "better" yet yields no discernible benefit over something practical? Because some requisition somewhere demanded it, was willing to pay for it blindly, and you end up with products very far up the "diminishing returns" slope that sound impressive in Powerpoint presentations to generals. Much like Swiss weaponry in that respect. Very far from the "cheap, easy, and effective" ethos that guided the design of the G3 to quickly equip a post-war military.

TCB

 

[Akita1]

Guess I'll start calling my USC an "obscure" relic. Except, of course, that it's my HDW and I shoot it all the time. Very simple, very effective, easy to clean, very accurate and does not need to be converted to a UMP, we just think it's cool.

As for HK, our U.S. LEOs and spec ops use them a ton (UMP, MP5, 416, etc.) and while the price tag is not quite user friendly for civs, I must say the two I own have been worth every penny.

I get the discontinuation though; I'm typically the only one at the range who has a USC and they've been difficult to find for years at both shows and LGS.