Is the pistol-caliber carbine/sub-gun functionally obsolete?

[Ramone]

I think of a PCC as a 'pistol plus' rather than a 'rifle minus', and I often recomend them to non-gun folk seeking a HD weapon.

usually a less expensive initial purchase

9mm ammo is the cheapest round (after .22LR) and readily available. This combined with a more manageable recoil and the fun factor, makes for more practice.

sub sonic 9mm from a 16" barrel produces far lower flash and bang than anything else, which I consider a huge advantage in low light/ enclosed spaces (which is what I expect to find in a HD situation).

While nearly as handy as a pistol, a carbine is far easier to control, making it not only inherently more accurate, but especially in the hands of a less experienced shooter far less likely to result in wounding a friendly or one's self.

 

[Tirod]

For dead serious concerns, the PCC is obsolete in terms of combat usefulness. It doesn't have enough penetrative power for military purposes. LEO's are pretty much abandoning them, albeit they get handed M16's for free by Uncle Sam. My local PD makes the neighborhood nostalgic with their full auto practice Sunday afternoons at the range.

To say they still have a place because they are fun to shoot puts the light squarely on it. FUN does not equal combat effectiveness. While the MP40 may be remembered as significant weapon of WWII, the German Army didn't issue all that many. Same as us - it was a special purpose weapon, the average soldier had a rifle to do the job right. The subgun was urban close defense, a PDW for soldiers not on the line of battle. Let's not overdo their lack of real combat power by speculating they would change the overall results of the war.

Our M1 carbine wasn't issued to front liners that much either - officers, motorcycle riders, mechanics, behind the line logisitics guys who didn't need to tote a big heavy 30-06 as a daily requirement.

PCC's have never really figured highly in war, they were pretty much the precursors of needing something just a bit more than a pistol because the job sometimes went to the line of battle. Not for too many who worked there.

To ask if they are still functional would be to assume they actually were at one time - they were, but only in restricted and limited terms. If the soldier was destined for frontline heavy combat, he got rid of them and went to a battle rifle, as much as some ditched their combat rifle knowing they weren't really going to get involved and the smaller weapon would be good enough. There's a downside to who might deliberately choose one. They are not a long range shooter when you need it, so you better be good with it up close and unfriendly.

 

[gunsablazin]

No, they still have their place. I just ordered an AR15 in 9mm, it will be used as a fun range gun and trainer for my other AR's while being easy to reload for and much cheaper to shoot with factory ammo too. It will also be an excellent CQB weapon for HD or use in an urban environment, where shots will be at fairly close range. I don't think it would be a good choice for a military application, but for civilian use they have a lot going for them. IMHO

 

[r1derbike]

A subsonic .45acp round carbine with a can might make an interesting combo. Relatively quiet, and fun to shoot without excessive noise.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I'm amused at the idea of a silenced Hi-Point 4595 TSRD set up to take 1911 magazines. Should be easy to do.

 

[SuperNaut]

A 10mm PCC needs to happen.

 

[mr.trooper]

From a ballistics standpoint, 45 gains considereably less from a longer barrel than a 9mm or 40. 16" civilian carbines in 45acp are real dogs. Ballistics on longer range targets is essentially identical to using a pistol.

If you are talking an SBR, you can get some utility out of it.

I think the benifits of a PCC are in low recoil, low impulse, and ammo commonality. IF those things are important to you, then NO, the PCC is not obsolete.

A 10mm PCC needs to happen.

It has happened, a few different times. They sell even worse than 10mm pistols, so they usually get droped FAST. I agree on the concept though.

It should also be noted that Sigs new PCC / pistol / SBR platform is availible in 357 Sig. Thats a lot of firepower in a small package.

 

[torqem]

We sure made a lot of 30 carbines, if they weren't used much! Our greatest fighter preferred one, as a general combat weapon. He said that he preferred a TSMG for houseclearing and a Garand for sniping, but only if a jeep was available to lug them around.

 

[barnbwt]

"LEO's are pretty much abandoning them, albeit they get handed M16's for free by Uncle Sam."

Were the SMG's they had previously free from Uncle Sam (from old NATO conflicts and whatnot)? If they weren't loaded up with M3's, M1/2 carbines, Thompsons, Uzi's and MP5's as those fell out of NATO/mil use, that makes me view the recent dump of military arms onto them after Iraq/Astan as much more significant from a historical perspective.

10mm carbines are a fantastic idea. So fantastic, that 90% of the idiots out there think it's stupid, and that they should get a bigger gun (AR) since it would cost the same. Never mind the totally different ballistics scheme, noise, recoil, SBR performance, or weight --the longer rounds are better :banghead:. Unless the SIG MPX is an utterly unreliable dog (no reason to suspect it is so far), it will be a very popular choice among savvy shooters and competitors, and gun builders. It's a truly gas-operated PCC, working just like the AR. Most folks are unaware, but an AR run this way typically has big problems with the short 9mm and the interior surfaces of a locked-breech upper; SIG appears to have solved these, and now has a carbine that looks to have nearly no recoil in full or semi auto. Let's not forget, that lower recoil impulse is the main reason why the 223 is a more practical semi-auto round for most than a 308. Why shouldn't that also be the case for an even lighter gun with even less recoil?

Important note; .357 SIG from the MPX will be reloadable, as will 10mm, since there will no blowback-stretch of the cases

TCB

 

[USAF_Vet]

Wait a sec, but when have pistol caliber carbines ever been used by a military or law enforcement operation? The clear difference between a PCC and a SMG, to me, has been the lack of a select fire action on the PCC. Pistol caliber carbines have really only been marketed to civilians with a few rare exceptions.

The PCC has never been combat effective, viewed through the military/ police lens of combat. But combat, from the average Joe home owner facing down a group of uninvited guests at 2am, the PCC is certainly combat effective.

 

[horsemen61]

This I how I feel my ar's feel big and bulky to my gf or like wise my mom same deal with a pump shotgun so in comes a kel tec sub 2k lets see 15 rounds of 180 grain jhp 40 sw rounds that also work in my dads glock at house distance aka length of the hall mom or the little lady can put all of them in a pie plate aka center mass so I feel that the PCC is still a viable option for some people and as a plus the longer site radius really helps

 

[Phaedrus/69]

A 10mm PCC needs to happen.

You can get one from Thureon Defense. The offer it with a quad rail, and that version looks nearly identical to a Colt 9mm. I'm actually considering getting one myself. For home defense it would be hard to beat 30 rounds of 10mm fired from a carbine!

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I realize that once a thread has begun it takes on a life of its own. But my original intent was to see what you folks think of the pistol-caliber carbine as a personal/home defense gun; I wasn't really concerned about the military uses. IMO it appears that ship has sailed. For many reasons SBRs in 5.56 seem to have largely replaced PPCs for military/tactical use.

 

[SuperNaut]

You can get one from Thureon Defense. The offer it with a quad rail, and that version looks nearly identical to a Colt 9mm. I'm actually considering getting one myself. For home defense it would be hard to beat 30 rounds of 10mm fired from a carbine!

Dig!

Thanks for the link!

 

[chopinbloc]

I want a 10mm lever action carbine very badly.

I also believe that Hi-Point needs to offer a 995 variant that accepts Uzi or Sten mags.

 

[GEM]

One use for the modern pistol caliber carbines - like the Beretta and Rugers - was to issue a politically correct gun to the police. Many cities had administrations and voters who thought AR platforms were too militaristic or evil assault weapons. The guns were a way around the prejudice.

The North Hollywood shootout led to the abandonment of this position for many. With some hilarity, a gun magazine review of the Ruger guns acknowledged that the pistol rounds weren't optional. So they suggested that at least it would be easier to hit the bad guys in the knees with the pistol rounds.

Sure, the guns are fun and fun for competition. A friend shoots a 9mm AR and it's neat. But their time has passed as cutting edge.

 

[TPD211]

I have a Mechtech upper on a Glock 22 lower that is my 40 S&W carbine. I like it a lot. I can get decent groups at 100 yards, 2-3 inches off the bench. I bought a Charter Arms Pitbull in 40 S&W with a 5" barrel to go with it when I go hog hunting. I have another Glock 22 and a 27 I could use but I wanted a revolver. I reload and am shooting 200 grain lead bullets out of the PCC. I figure I'm getting 1200-1300 fps or so out of the 16" barrel. I have a AR also but will carry the Mechtech on duty to compliment the Glock 22 I carry. I have the 22 round Glock mags for the PCC. Check out Mechtech if you are interested in a pistol caliber carbine. They manufacture uppers for Glock and 1911 lowers. You 1911 guys can make the pistol a 10mm or 460 Rowland carbine from the 1911 lower.

 

[TPD211]

Wrong photo, here's the Mechtech and Pitbull

 

[Dean1818]

My weapons must do 2 things

1) Defend

Or

2) Hunt


In both cases, a pistol caliber carbine could work, but if its me I am choosing a better tool for the job.

IMHO, the carbines are FUN to shoot, and I would like to get one, but every time I look at it, I end up buying a gun that better fits category one or two

 

[chopinbloc]

TPD211, when you say "on duty" do you mean with a police department?

You would do well to consider that if you NEED a carbine, you need it quickly and you don't want to lose the ability to transition to a sidearm in the event of a stoppage on your primary, either.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I guess the AR or the AK is the de facto carbine here in the U S. Pros, Cheaper than dirt, good to 300 yds. Cons, loud and expensive to run. Does a civilian need a 300 yd weapon for defense, probably not. The US military solved the intermediate defensive weapon problem in 1941 with the 30 carbine. The Israeli army solved it again with the UZI in 1950. No point in reinventing the wheel. I believe 9mm and 45 acp carbines are heavily used in Europe and the UK. I think it's a long way from obsolete. I have an M1. Just right.

 

[chopinbloc]

The advantage of the carbine chambered in an intermediate cartridge isn't just range. .223/5.56mm or 7.62x39mm are FAR more powerful than .30 carbine, 9mm, or .45 ACP.








Oh, and my AR isn't too loud at all. ;^)

 

[mavracer]

The advantage of the carbine chambered in an intermediate cartridge isn't just range. .223/5.56mm or 7.62x39mm are FAR more powerful than .30 carbine, 9mm, or .45 ACP.

The 5.56 is "FAR" more powerful than the 30 Carbine?
You might want to actually look at a the ballistics.
30 Carbine has about 20% more momentum.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I don't think I want the legal challenges of shooting someone in my home or on my property with a suppressed AR. Nothing against your choice for a home defense weapon but my legal counsel advised me against it and he's a shooter. All of my stuff is old and anemic WW2 junk, right down to my 1911

 

[mavracer]

All of my stuff is old and anemic WW2 junk.

If not older I use a 1897 Chinchester and I think I might take my very early Inland out of the closet and stick the '92 or '94 winchester in there.