Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I have a sneaking suspicion that PCCs, especially when equipped with a light/laser would make for a fantastic home defense gun for people who don't practice very often.
Is the pistol-caliber carbine/sub-gun functionally obsolete?
- Thread starter Phaedrus/69
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barnbwt
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For SBR self-defense purposes? PCC every time since it gives up less and with less noise/flash
For suppressed self defense? heavier caliber/lower pressure every time (so probably a PCC)
For carry/patrol/hiking? Lighter and more compact PCC every time
For select fire? PCC will be more controllable every time
For ammo weight? Toss up between small rifle and pistol calibers
For ammo capacity? PCC since drums/mags are much smaller/lighter
For reliability? PCC since a blowback has less to go wrong than a locked breech
For armored target? Rifle all the way
For >100yrd range hunting/offensives? Rifle all the way since the greater length makes sighting easier, and most of their rounds exhibit less drop making ranging easier
For the homebuilder? PCC all the way since they are far simpler to build
For the reloader? PCC since they reload more easily
For the marksman? Rifle since their longer range potential can be exploited more fully
For the ninja? Rifle since that's what the military uses and PCCs are passé
For the guy trained on an AR? An AR. Since learning another platform is apparently impossible.
For rapid shots? PCC since the recoil is lower, as is blast and noise
For impressing at the range? PCC since cool military look-alikes are uncommon, ARs are super common, and CX4's don't look tactical enough
For indoor use? PCC since it is quieter and dimmer especially from a +10" barrel. The 223 guys will claim that fancy brakes or training (i.e. deafness) render them impervious to the flashbangs squirting from their barrel, but compared to the nearly paintball-like recoil, noise, and flash from a longer barrel 9mm, I call BS.
As you can see, lots of arguments for PCCs so they are hardly irrelevant. But try convincing anyone at a gun counter to buy a less powerful gun for the same price as a more powerful piece that looks like the stuff our team conquers the world with
The SIG MPX is going to rool skool when it is introduced, and very well may end up getting short barrel rifles and suppressors removed from the NFA before long. When people have access to a modern, high quality PCC that fires from a gas operated locked breech, they will be believers. Think M1 Carbine but with 9mm recoil and AR layout
TCB
For suppressed self defense? heavier caliber/lower pressure every time (so probably a PCC)
For carry/patrol/hiking? Lighter and more compact PCC every time
For select fire? PCC will be more controllable every time
For ammo weight? Toss up between small rifle and pistol calibers
For ammo capacity? PCC since drums/mags are much smaller/lighter
For reliability? PCC since a blowback has less to go wrong than a locked breech
For armored target? Rifle all the way
For >100yrd range hunting/offensives? Rifle all the way since the greater length makes sighting easier, and most of their rounds exhibit less drop making ranging easier
For the homebuilder? PCC all the way since they are far simpler to build
For the reloader? PCC since they reload more easily
For the marksman? Rifle since their longer range potential can be exploited more fully
For the ninja? Rifle since that's what the military uses and PCCs are passé
For the guy trained on an AR? An AR. Since learning another platform is apparently impossible.
For rapid shots? PCC since the recoil is lower, as is blast and noise
For impressing at the range? PCC since cool military look-alikes are uncommon, ARs are super common, and CX4's don't look tactical enough
For indoor use? PCC since it is quieter and dimmer especially from a +10" barrel. The 223 guys will claim that fancy brakes or training (i.e. deafness) render them impervious to the flashbangs squirting from their barrel, but compared to the nearly paintball-like recoil, noise, and flash from a longer barrel 9mm, I call BS.
As you can see, lots of arguments for PCCs so they are hardly irrelevant. But try convincing anyone at a gun counter to buy a less powerful gun for the same price as a more powerful piece that looks like the stuff our team conquers the world with
The SIG MPX is going to rool skool when it is introduced, and very well may end up getting short barrel rifles and suppressors removed from the NFA before long. When people have access to a modern, high quality PCC that fires from a gas operated locked breech, they will be believers. Think M1 Carbine but with 9mm recoil and AR layout
TCB
Schwing
Member
Pistol caliber carbines are hardly obsolete. While their popularity comes and goes, there are many LEOs, especially swat members who use pistol caliber carbines. I have seen LEOs in my own area with CX4's in their vehicles. For sweeping buildings or mid to short range engagements, there is very little downside. Less muzzle flash, less DBs, light recoil and cost of ammo make them ideal. Even the military has used carbines like the Kriss super v for certain scenarios.
I'd rather have an M-1 carbine over most PCC's. (PS an M1 carbine and no hearing protection will RING your ears.)
Unless you count my 1894 Marlin in 44 mag.
NOT all pcc discussions need be about 'black' guns.
But the bonus of platforms that share mags with your handgun... or the same system as your rifle etc.. or a common caliber.. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
I suspect the PCC as a "SWAT" weapon is going away in favor of the M-4 style carbine. The power an M-4 lacks at 200 yards, it still has 3x better than a 9mm Mp5 at the muzzle. As for the military, couple that with a burst, and no need to oddball ammo and magazines in your resupply train... maybe the M4 isn't a 'room broom' but it does the job.
Unless you count my 1894 Marlin in 44 mag.
NOT all pcc discussions need be about 'black' guns.
But the bonus of platforms that share mags with your handgun... or the same system as your rifle etc.. or a common caliber.. I see nothing at all wrong with that.
I suspect the PCC as a "SWAT" weapon is going away in favor of the M-4 style carbine. The power an M-4 lacks at 200 yards, it still has 3x better than a 9mm Mp5 at the muzzle. As for the military, couple that with a burst, and no need to oddball ammo and magazines in your resupply train... maybe the M4 isn't a 'room broom' but it does the job.
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Phaedrus/69
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For those of you that want a PPC that runs a Glock mag you may want to check out Thureon Defense. Their carbines use AR lowers and Glock mags (with an option for a version that runs Uzi/Colt mags). They're blowback guns, probably more reliable and better made than a Kel-Tec and easier to get. You can also buy one in 10mm if you want. A PPC in 10mm would be 'bad medicine' indeed for home defense!
A PPC in 10mm would be 'bad medicine' indeed for home defense!
From a LE and military perspective they are all but dead. The carbine length AR has made them obsolete for that use. I wouldn't touch most for my personal use, but there is just enough demand to keep a few in production.
The lever's in 357 and 44 magnum are the exception. These calibers benefit enough to make them a completely different animal from a 16-20" barrel. If the 9mm, and 45 ACP carbines disappeared tomorrow my feelings wouldn't be hurt in the least.
The lever's in 357 and 44 magnum are the exception. These calibers benefit enough to make them a completely different animal from a 16-20" barrel. If the 9mm, and 45 ACP carbines disappeared tomorrow my feelings wouldn't be hurt in the least.
jobu07
Contributing Member
I've had a USC that I converted over to UMP for several years now. It's a fun and reliable carbine. One of these days I'm going to SBR it also. If you haven't purchased yet be sure to get a black one to save yourself doing the dye job. If you do a forum search for my name you'll come across a write up did on mine from start to finish - dying from gray to black was easy and very successful.
To your original post I think that the PCC still serves a purpose, though there are better options out there depending what you want to do. For defending your home, though, it is honestly as good an option as any other shoulder fired weapon. Well, it's better than a pistol or a pointy stick. I've always liked PCC's. Someone mentioned Ruger chambering a Mini-14 in 45 ACP. Forget that... I still wish Ruger would bring back the PC series and make a PC45 to go with my PC9 and PC4...
To your original post I think that the PCC still serves a purpose, though there are better options out there depending what you want to do. For defending your home, though, it is honestly as good an option as any other shoulder fired weapon. Well, it's better than a pistol or a pointy stick.
I've always liked PCC's. Someone mentioned Ruger chambering a Mini-14 in 45 ACP. Forget that... I still wish Ruger would bring back the PC series and make a PC45 to go with my PC9 and PC4...Attachments
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Phaedrus/69
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Nice work, jobu07! I'm fairly certain I've read your write up. While deciding on the USC I think I left few stones unturned re research- if it was accessible to Google I read it! That's pretty much what I want to do. I'll start out with the GGC kit and buy proper UMP parts as I have the cash. Right now I'm kind of waiting to see what happens at ATF. If the current rules stay in place I'll do a firearms trust.
For the record I'm certainly not saying that a PCC is better than a rifle! But I think that 25 rounds of 230gr Federal HST +P should get the job done for home defense. When I have the funds I'll probably pick up a Bravo or DD, too.
That's pretty much what I want to do. I'll start out with the GGC kit and buy proper UMP parts as I have the cash. Right now I'm kind of waiting to see what happens at ATF. If the current rules stay in place I'll do a firearms trust.For the record I'm certainly not saying that a PCC is better than a rifle! But I think that 25 rounds of 230gr Federal HST +P should get the job done for home defense. When I have the funds I'll probably pick up a Bravo or DD, too.
Got a hi point 40 carbine and a 1894 357/38 and enjoy both. Always have thought of them as up close rifles. 100 yards or less are no problem for either. Never hunted deer with them but feel I could in close brushy areas. Always taken 300 win mag or 3030 because I have them. Hard to break old habits. Have thought about using my gp161 and my m94 in the woods and choosing one at the moment of contact but maybe too far out of the box for me. Old and set in my ways. Mix it up while you're young or you'll get more than predictable.
au01st
Member
Waiting around for a good deal on a CX4 in .40 so I can share ammo with my CZ, Glock, and XD .40's. Or a CX4 in 9mm so I can share ammo with my CZ, Glock, or EAA 9mms. It would be nice to go to the range and just bring one kind of ammo.
buck460XVR
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I don't know where the OP is from, but around here, handgun caliber carbines are more popular now than ever. Been going to the same local Sportsmans Club shooting range for 50 years. 30 years ago, I saw the first one I ever saw there....mine. Having two personal ranges nowadays, I rarely go there much, but when I do, it is almost as common to see a handgun caliber carbine as a regular centerfire rifle....especially if it's just for fun and range use. Between the boon in Cowboy action shooting, parents finding that handgun caliber carbines are a effective deer firearm for young hunters and the relative inexpensiveness of the bolt/lever/auto-loader platforms for them, along with the smaller cost for the ammo to feed them, it hard for many LGSs around here to keep 'em on the shelves.
Precisely why I sold my HiPoint 4595 to my brother-in-law. He shot it far, far better than his Ruger pistol. and did especially well with the laser. He wanted a HD gun in .45ACP, and I was not needing the 4595 any more - I'm moving to a home on a five-acre wooded parcel, and my M&P Sport is better suited to dealing with predators there.
At 25-50 yards, the 4595 is perfect for him. He won't practice much, and he doesn't have to stock another caliber. It's even pretty accurate with the laser.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
PCCs and submachine guns are just plain fun, and that will probably be their greatest and most enduring legacy.
There isn't anything they really do better than an intermediate rifle carbine (like an AR). Their cartridges do NOT present any advantages (i.e. overpenetration) vs. common 5.56mm loads in home defense scenarios and they don't have any of the important advantages of a handgun, but they are fun, and can be easy for small and novice shooters to plink with. And, like just about every other firearm out there, they will get the job done (whatever it is) if you've practiced with them in that role and your skills are up to the task.
So by that standard they are not obsolete.
Militarily and "tactically" obsolescent (meaning surpassed, no longer the best choice available) but not obsolete in the sense of having no use.
There isn't anything they really do better than an intermediate rifle carbine (like an AR). Their cartridges do NOT present any advantages (i.e. overpenetration) vs. common 5.56mm loads in home defense scenarios and they don't have any of the important advantages of a handgun, but they are fun, and can be easy for small and novice shooters to plink with. And, like just about every other firearm out there, they will get the job done (whatever it is) if you've practiced with them in that role and your skills are up to the task.
So by that standard they are not obsolete.
Militarily and "tactically" obsolescent (meaning surpassed, no longer the best choice available) but not obsolete in the sense of having no use.
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Phaedrus/69
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I guess my original post should have been clearer in scope; I mean as personal & home defense arms. The use of SMGs by the military and police is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish and beyond the scope of this forum. It does seem like the M4 has largely replaced the SMG in most military and SWAT use although I do know of some units/agencies that use the UMP or MP5.
Once I get a chance to give my new USC a good workout I'll determine if it's going to supplant my USP45 Tactical as my main zombie gun. I expect that it will. It should be a lot more precise and easy to get good hits under stress vs a sidearm.
Once I get a chance to give my new USC a good workout I'll determine if it's going to supplant my USP45 Tactical as my main zombie gun. I expect that it will. It should be a lot more precise and easy to get good hits under stress vs a sidearm.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, police and military uses of firearms aren't off topic here, but zombie guns are.
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Phaedrus/69
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Guess I forgot the " " around zombie.
SFsc616171
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NO.
'Sub-guns', as i understand them, are being manufactured as semi-auto designs, to even emulate the grand old Thompson machine gun.
"Pistol caliber subguns" are not just 9mm, but also .45ACP.
"Pistol caliber (lever action) carbines" are alive and well in .32-20, .32-40, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt.
(Personally, i would like to see a Spencer in a more modern revolver cartridge, because it is a nice and proven mechanical design.)
'Sub-guns', as i understand them, are being manufactured as semi-auto designs, to even emulate the grand old Thompson machine gun.
"Pistol caliber subguns" are not just 9mm, but also .45ACP.
"Pistol caliber (lever action) carbines" are alive and well in .32-20, .32-40, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .44-40, .44 Special, .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt.
(Personally, i would like to see a Spencer in a more modern revolver cartridge, because it is a nice and proven mechanical design.)
My primary home defense weapon is a USC so definitely not obsolete for me. I always wanted one since they started making them and finally found one for a decent price about 5 years ago. Haven't looked back since.
I have a few SBRs and shoot them all the time, but I always head back to the USC as my "go to" carbine for home defense. I have even used it to shoot hogs at our camp from time to time. I have put a few thousand rounds through it and never a hiccup (can't say that for the SBRs).
I have a few SBRs and shoot them all the time, but I always head back to the USC as my "go to" carbine for home defense. I have even used it to shoot hogs at our camp from time to time. I have put a few thousand rounds through it and never a hiccup (can't say that for the SBRs).
They definitely have a place as far as ownership go, but I think they are pretty much obsolete in a tactical or defensive setting.
You explained it in your own OP, an AR would be both less expensive and more terminally effective. It can be SBR'd as well and 5.56 will penetrate less in a structure than any pistol HP. It can be suppressed also. There is nothing a PCC can do that an AR in 5.56, 300 BLK or 6.8SPC can't do better and usually for less cost.
I have a hard time imagining a scenario where needing pistol/carbine magazine interchangeability would matter either, certainly not in a HD setting. No military or Spec Op unit in the world has, or has ever had that to my knowledge either.
Again, that is from a pure tactical/defensive perspective. Lots of reasons to have one outside of that and they can serve the HD role well, certainly a step up from a pistol with higher capacity, greater accuracry, faster follow up shots and mounted light, red dot sight etc. It is just the AR brings all of that too, plus 3x the power and less penetration in a structure.
You explained it in your own OP, an AR would be both less expensive and more terminally effective. It can be SBR'd as well and 5.56 will penetrate less in a structure than any pistol HP. It can be suppressed also. There is nothing a PCC can do that an AR in 5.56, 300 BLK or 6.8SPC can't do better and usually for less cost.
I have a hard time imagining a scenario where needing pistol/carbine magazine interchangeability would matter either, certainly not in a HD setting. No military or Spec Op unit in the world has, or has ever had that to my knowledge either.
Again, that is from a pure tactical/defensive perspective. Lots of reasons to have one outside of that and they can serve the HD role well, certainly a step up from a pistol with higher capacity, greater accuracry, faster follow up shots and mounted light, red dot sight etc. It is just the AR brings all of that too, plus 3x the power and less penetration in a structure.
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Phaedrus/69
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Yeah, very true Strambo. Just had to have it though...I have an HK problem. The one advantage it has for me is that I have nowhere to shoot a rifle, certainly nowhere that I can go with any regularity.
But I do plan to pick up an EBR in 5.56 eventually.
The one advantage it has for me is that I have nowhere to shoot a rifle, certainly nowhere that I can go with any regularity.But I do plan to pick up an EBR in 5.56 eventually.
barnbwt
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"Personally, i would like to see a Spencer in a more modern revolver cartridge, because it is a nice and proven mechanical design."
With an Evans Rifle magazine, you could easily have a 20+ shot 357
Once more, there are a couple things PCCs do better than rifle carbines, just not that we civilians are allowed to do without a lot of hassle. They are simply smaller, and maintain more consistent ballistics to shorter barrel lengths than full power cartridges (not saying a 223 from a 4" barrel is less powerful than a 9mm from the same, but the former will definitely be louder and brighter in an indoor setting, and suppressing a 30cal 223 case will be difficult without a barrel/suppressor comb that is as long as a full length barrel). I also know PCCs can be readily suppressed integrally for an even shorter length, I don't honestly know if this is the case for gas-operated rifles.
I predict a brief, possibly sustained (but probably not) uptick in PCC interest when SIG brings out their MPX. It's a 9mm direct-impingement gas-op carbine that is readily convertible to an integrally suppressed configuration with the addition of some after market parts (NFA stamp, of course)
TCB
With an Evans Rifle magazine, you could easily have a 20+ shot 357
Once more, there are a couple things PCCs do better than rifle carbines, just not that we civilians are allowed to do without a lot of hassle. They are simply smaller, and maintain more consistent ballistics to shorter barrel lengths than full power cartridges (not saying a 223 from a 4" barrel is less powerful than a 9mm from the same, but the former will definitely be louder and brighter in an indoor setting, and suppressing a 30cal 223 case will be difficult without a barrel/suppressor comb that is as long as a full length barrel). I also know PCCs can be readily suppressed integrally for an even shorter length, I don't honestly know if this is the case for gas-operated rifles.
I predict a brief, possibly sustained (but probably not) uptick in PCC interest when SIG brings out their MPX. It's a 9mm direct-impingement gas-op carbine that is readily convertible to an integrally suppressed configuration with the addition of some after market parts (NFA stamp, of course)
TCB
So why would the PCC be suppressed, but not the 10" 223 AR, hmmm? Inasmuch as any longarm is ok for the home (assuming that you can get to it in time, which aint likely) the PCC is ok, if you load it right(ie, the lightest jhp in the caliber, for max velocity and decent expandion of the jhp.
PCC can take cast lead reloads, which are welcome at any indoor range. 223's are not, if the backstop is metal. Even if it's dirt, the blast of such guns (minus a suppressor) renders them still not welcome if other shooters are present.
The only PCC I'd consider (for others, I don't want/need one) is the HighPoint 9mm, because of the price and the included laser sight. If you are going to pay within $200 of the price of the AR, just get the AR, and you'll be ahead.
The realistic defensive market (where there's no laws vs ARs') disagrees with you a whole lot about lever actions. I just looked at a big gun catalog, and man, a solid 30 pages were about AR's. Wow! Even with cowboy action matches being popular, Marlin went under, Remington had to bail them out. And the quality control has slipped quite a bit, or so I have heard.
PCC can take cast lead reloads, which are welcome at any indoor range. 223's are not, if the backstop is metal. Even if it's dirt, the blast of such guns (minus a suppressor) renders them still not welcome if other shooters are present.
The only PCC I'd consider (for others, I don't want/need one) is the HighPoint 9mm, because of the price and the included laser sight. If you are going to pay within $200 of the price of the AR, just get the AR, and you'll be ahead.
The realistic defensive market (where there's no laws vs ARs') disagrees with you a whole lot about lever actions. I just looked at a big gun catalog, and man, a solid 30 pages were about AR's. Wow! Even with cowboy action matches being popular, Marlin went under, Remington had to bail them out. And the quality control has slipped quite a bit, or so I have heard.
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