Is the pistol-caliber carbine/sub-gun functionally obsolete?

[Sam1911]

Ok, I think I made my point. I don't use "assault" in my description of any type of weapon because of the politics that get dragged into it.

Ok, that's fair enough. You certainly don't have to, and unless you're talking about select-fire versions you shouldn't.

You like Optics on you weapons for CQB, I don't

Ok. No one would ever make you use them, and they aren't somehow tactically required. Chances are you'd do fine without them.

Some AR's are C&R now? That is cool. Where can I buy an AR with a C&R license? That would be some useful information to post here.

You'd have to find a seller with one that is older than 50 years. I don't happen to know of any for sale, personally, but I haven't looked. The first commercial Colt SP1 was made in 1963, so it was C&R eligible last year.

 

[chopinbloc]

Massad Ayoob is a writer who sensationalizes to sell articles. He has held up a very small number of cases where an issue was made of the gun at trial for evidence to support his claim but those cases were also extraordinary in other ways. Two come to mind: Harold Fish, who shot a man with no other witnesses present back when use of force in this state was a sort of affirmative defense sort of thing where the burden of proof was on the shooter to establish that he or she acted in defense. While the physical evidence was consistent with Fish's claim, he could not PROVE his actions were legal. The other one was the Gary Fadden incident, which involved the use of a registered machine gun and conflicting reports from the parties involved. Moreover, it was the number of shots and the fact that one impacted the targets back that was the real issue at trial, not the type of weapon. Oh, and this is from Ayoob's own article on the subject: "The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense."

I said it before and I'll say it again: find me a few cases where the type of weapon secured a conviction in an otherwise legal shoot and I'll believe the crap about using an inferior tool. I'll still disagree because I'm still more concerned about preventing harm to my wife and children than going to prison, but I'll at least concede your point. If you can't find a case like that, then I'd like you to stop spreading stupid ideas that could get people hurt.

Great post, Zoogster. A minor technical point, though. You mention subsonic ammo several times but I want to point out that a suppressor is still very useful even with supersonic ammo. The crack from the flight noise of the bullet is much quieter than the report of all but .22lr from a rifle. Sure, subsonic ammo is much quieter when suppressed but suppressed supersonic ammo is quiet enough that it causes very little hearing damage and isn't likely to disorient you the way discharging an unsuppressed center fire indoors might.

I will concede that the quieter report of a PCC with a 16" barrel is pretty nice, especially for familiarizing new people to guns.

 

[mavracer]

I think the laws more than anything make the pistol caliber carbine obsolete.

I disagree IMHO the law is what's keeping the PCC alive. If SBR and supressors were readily avaliable more people would use them, the one advantage a 9mm or 45acp carbine has over a 5.56 is noise, take that away and there's no disadvantage of using a 5.56.
Also IMHO the 300 Blackout really kills off any usefull function of a 9mm or 45cal subgun or even a PCC in these calibers.
My Blackout will spit a 208gr A-max out a 1050fps with pressure barely over that of a 45 ACP and less than standard pressure 9mm and even unsuppressed is evey bit as quiet as my Hi Point 9mm was.
A simple mag change and it becomes an effective 300yard gun shooting 110gr pills at 2300 fps.

 

[GEM]

To each his or her own on the appearance in court issues. My lawyer will be up on the issues and principles of dealing with juries. If yours is not, not my problem.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Some pretty self assured positions here concerning investigations, laws, courts, judges and juries. I've sat on a capital crime jury and there are a lot of dynamics at play. A lot depends on things like jury selection, prosecution and defense presentations, evidence, testimony, and believe it or not, perceptions of the jurors. Jurors get to deliberate the verdict. That means everyone gets to sit around for days if needed and decide the fate of some poor soul who may not even be guilty of the crime he is charged with. Judged by twelve has a lot of meaning regarding deliberations. You get to discuss with the other jurors your opinions and people can be influenced right there. It's happened that innocent people have been arrested, tried, found guilty, executed and later discovered that the accused wasn't guilty because of some new found evidence or evidence that was never admitted to trial. That's one of the reasons some states don't have the death penalty. If they do they probably have an appeal process that could keep a guy on death row for 10 or 12 years. A good defense will start with your realization that you will be judged by a jury of your peers. It has little to do with a trial that happened 20 years ago in a different state with a different judge, different attorneys and most importantly a different jury.

 

[Quaamik]

No, its not obsolete.

For a general purpose military arm, the pistol caliber sub gun lacks compared to a true "assault rifle" (light caliber selective fire rifle). But that doesn't really matter unless you are in or supplying a military.

For a general purpose SHTF rifle, a rifle caliber, even a light one like .223, can reach further and do more. For the weight and bulk in that situation, the rifle caliber has it. Even then, the pistol caliber carbine (PCC) has better ammo availability. Find .223 or 7.62x39. Its available but, except for places that sell bulk or surplus, 9mm, .40 and .45 will be available in bigger quantities.

Accuracy: Absolute accuracy (from a rest with a scope) the true rifle will win. Functional accuracy? You will be hard put to tell them apart. At 50 yards a PCC fired offhand will group with a rifle fired the same way in the same timeframe. Shooting offhand at 100 yards, the difference won't be noticable unless you are shooting at small game. And you can shoot either accurately enough as fast as you can pull the trigger.

Defense (civilian): The rifle has more power, and more penetration against soft body armor. Neither penetrates hard body armor. The PCC will have less flash, less "blast", and hurt your eardrums (and those of innocents you are protecting) less. The PCC will punch through the interior corner the goblin is using for cover while light .223 rounds will break up in the wall (exiting as fragments). Better constructed 5.56 mm FMJ and 7.62x39 will punch through as well, but share the PCCs problem of penetrating EXTERIOR walls also. The goblin you hit isn't walking away from either rifle or PCC.

 

[barnbwt]

Having fired 223 and x39 rifles, as well as 9mm subguns, "functional accuracy" strongly favors the former due to the lower recoil. A 16" barrel 9mm is practically suppressed, as well, since the pressure has dropped at the muzzle so much. Nearly didn't need earplugs for it. Recoil was paintball-like.

The primary shortcoming to PCCs has nothing to do with the first two letters; they tend to be very simply built blowbacks with simply built triggers that simply haven't been given the attention rifles have, simply because customers do not demand accuracy or practical effectiveness from them (they see them as rough-shod tools, like a "shtf gun" or "truck gun," but not something that should have a timney trigger, unlike their AR or 10/22 ). A true blowback open bolt subgun suffers majorly since the enormous reciprocating mass before ignition drastically hampers accuracy. Still, a Suomi is probably the most controllable full auto centerfire gun there is.

TCB

 

[chopinbloc]

You forgot the part about the rifle having much greater terminal effecct.

ETA: I think people often underestimate the importance of accuracy in defense. Not for the sake of making a head shot at 200m, but for the ability to hit a small target if the bad guy only exposes a small portion of his body. Think an ankle just barely poking out beside the wheel of the car in your garage when he took a pot shot at you before ducking through your kitchen door, for example. While the likelihood of needing to make that shot is low, it's also unlikely that you need to discharge a weapon at all. It's always nice to have more tools.

 

[barnbwt]

"You forgot the part about the rifle having much greater terminal effect"
What's that have to do with accuracy? And yes, a 9mm may only have an 80% chance of ending a fight while a 223 may have a 90% chance in the same fictitious scenario, but both are pretty dang good bets and one of them can be followed by additional bets more quickly and effectively than the other

TCB

 

[chopinbloc]

What's that have to do with accuracy?

Who said it did? I was typing my reply to Quaamik when you posted.

Also, the difference is far greater than you think, though it's problematic to put it in quantifiable terms like the percentages you made up.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Well, the Eagle has landed! My HK USC showed up at my FFL today. While I didn't have time to take it to the range before I had to go to work I love the feel and handling of the carbine. I'm well aware that it lacks the punch of a rifle but I think it will be a fun range gun. If it runs well it will probably replace my HK USP45 Tactical as my main home-defense firearm. It won't replace a rifle but I don't have a rifle right now. A real EBR is on my short list, too.

 

[chopinbloc]

Congratulations! I'll bet it's a hoot.

Pics aren't loading, though.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Hahaha! Haven't got around to taking any pics yet. Right now it's sitting there on the box. One little quibble to note- at $1500 you'd think HK could ship it in a plastic case.

 

[CoalTrain49]

A well thought out choice. Wish I could afford one of them new PCC's. Enjoy.

 

[Blackstone]

I could probably place better shots through a subgun than through a pistol, which does affect the DTR rate.

 

[powder]

What do you folks think about the viability of a pistol caliber carbine for home defense?

Excellent, and even better for the buried rifle/carbine in say a Hi-Point 4595, IIRC. GunTests.com ran one in a comparo and they loved it.

 

[justice06rr]

Even then, the pistol caliber carbine (PCC) has better ammo availability. Find .223 or 7.62x39. Its available but, except for places that sell bulk or surplus, 9mm, .40 and .45 will be available in bigger quantities.

This depends on the area and where you buy ammo.

9mm is practically still impossible to find locally here while there is an abundance of 223 and 7.62.

IMO, PCC and sub-guns (semiauto) are not obsolete but only fill a very narrow niche of buyers/shooters. Personally I don't see an advantage shooting a 16" 9mm PCC for close quarters when a handgun will do.

I would rather SBR a 5.56 or 7.62x39 rifle and still have better ballistics past 100yards than a handgun caliber. but thats personal preference.

 

[GEM]

More 223 around here on store shelves than 9mm.

I see there is a 9 mm M-1 carbine maybe coming out (been delayed).

 

[CoalTrain49]

More 223 around here on store shelves than 9mm.

I see there is a 9 mm M-1 carbine maybe coming out (been delayed).

Who is going to build that? I could get behind something like that in 9MM, 45 ACP, or 40. I'm surprised someone hasn't done it already.

 

[GEM]

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/13/citadel-m1-carbine-9mm-additional-information/

I saw somewhere in Shot Show coverage that it might actually come out.

Interesting - so many cool guns, so little moolah.

 

[justice06rr]

Way more 5.56/223 here than 9mm. The only 9mm available are expensive JHP's. So for practice and range use, it is not reasonable.

For a 5.56 vs 9mm in a 16" Carbine, the 5.56 is the clear winner no matter what. The only advantage of the 9mm Carbine is probably less noise.

 

[GEM]

Local stores and our Cabelas are swimming in 223 but not 9mm.

Here's more on the carbine - http://www.legacysports.com/m-1-9mm-carbine

 

[Jason_W]

From a defense/tactical/military standpoint, I really can't say.

I do know that in the past, I've had a lot more fun with pistol caliber carbines (mostly lever actions chambered in revolver rounds) than I have with actual rifles. I also like that PCCs, especially the revolver round ones, are variable yield devices. If you want to poke a clean hole in a rabbit and have plenty left to eat, you can do that. If you want to kill medium or large game at reasonable distances, you can also do that.

Also, from a handloader's perspective, not having to lube cases prior to sizing is a very good thing.

 

[torqem]

Right, 300 yds with something with as bad a BC as a 110gr 30 cal bullet, started as slow as the 30 ak rd. if your "effective' definiting is firing lots of misses and getting very few hits, ok. 200 yds, maybe. 300 yds,not.

 

[torqem]

it's not just "personal preference" when you favor the 223 carbine. It's rational choosing of better gear.