Home defense hypothetical
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Kacerdias
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The 2oz Fox Labs comes with the CZ75 and Surefire. If it's some drunkard up the stairs he's going to get a faceful before he reaches the top. If that proves ineffective then things get ugly. Guess I'll "shoot to stop" if that's what you call 2 COM. The wife will be busy dialing the cops, holed up with my J-frame.
Hiding behind a bedroom door seems silly. Interior doors are paper thin - most of them won't stop a fist. Why would I want to wait until the attacker was on the 2nd floor and I've lost any high ground advantage? The point is to stop the attack before it's anywhere near what I deem valuable -the lady I married.
Hiding behind a bedroom door seems silly. Interior doors are paper thin - most of them won't stop a fist. Why would I want to wait until the attacker was on the 2nd floor and I've lost any high ground advantage? The point is to stop the attack before it's anywhere near what I deem valuable -the lady I married.
JamisJockey
member
High ground is only an advantage if you've trained to shoot from that angle. A bullet fired COM from the top of the stairs (downward angle) might completely miss all vital organs and just piss 'em off.
indie
Member
i got my wife a keychain Sabre red, but i was thinking of getting another bedroom can of spray as a less lethal alternative if i have the luxury of deciding how to handle the intrusion.
when we move into our house, i also want a good big protective dog.
but i'm still in the 'stop it before it reaches your family' school of thought....by whatever means neccessary
when we move into our house, i also want a good big protective dog.
but i'm still in the 'stop it before it reaches your family' school of thought....by whatever means neccessary
elkhuntingfool
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This scenario (sort of) happened to my neighbor. They were asleep - his wife woke him up. He grabbed his revolver and started to move his hand towards to door to open it up when he noticed the door knob twist. He grabbed it with one hand and pulled the trigger back with his thumb and the door knob stopped twisting and he could hear the BG run down the stairs and out the door.
They called the cops. BG never found. I started sleeping with a handgun or a shotgun nearby. Had the chance to thrwart some BGs trying to break into my travel trailer. Racked the shotgun and they stopped and jumped the fence.
Soooooo glad for the 2nd amendment!
They called the cops. BG never found. I started sleeping with a handgun or a shotgun nearby. Had the chance to thrwart some BGs trying to break into my travel trailer. Racked the shotgun and they stopped and jumped the fence.
Soooooo glad for the 2nd amendment!
This is one reason to have light switches at your bedroom or hallway that control all outside lights, you hear noises, you light up the night. Second if it were my house and the dog had had too many beers and was unable to get to bark his fool head off at the door, I would know that with a dead bolt AND a drop bolt, there was no way he was coming in "by accident". Therefore, forcible entry and that would mean he had burglary tools, (crowbar, big screw driver, etc) AKA known as "blunt instruments" means he is in my mind a threat to do me great bodily harm, Therefore he is a BG and a TARGET. Now if he literally stumbles and falls down, I might not give him the dirt nap, but he so much as twitches, he's toast.
I base this on...
Breaking and entering, armed, my family is present, and in real life, the dog would either be chewing on him or the dog would dead, again that would make him a target. I stood in front of 400 people and promised to protect my wife and family from all things. I intend to stand by that.
I base this on...
Breaking and entering, armed, my family is present, and in real life, the dog would either be chewing on him or the dog would dead, again that would make him a target. I stood in front of 400 people and promised to protect my wife and family from all things. I intend to stand by that.
Kevin108
Member
Hold on, he walking (stumbling) up the stairs?
How about wait for him at the top and...
Seriously though, this is a tough one.
How about wait for him at the top and...
Seriously though, this is a tough one.
reppondj
Member
The minute the intruder steps into my house he has approximately 75 feet to decide to leave!!! That is the distance I can retreat til I run out of house. When in my house I am never over 10-15 feet from a firearm, retreating is only to give the intruder a chance to see I am armed, my sight is on them and to change their mind about being here and for me to decide whether it warrants deadly force. I have had extensive military building entry and "shoot dont shoot" training and comfortable with this method.
Of course if they are armed (with ANYTHING) and I think they will harm me, there is no need to retreat, empty the mag center mass.
And...............after bed time is a different story. My doors and windows are locked, all the lights are out, no one is awake, meaning that someone would have to be entering my house with something on their mind other than going to the latrine or a midnite snack. At that point it is again, center mass, empty the mag.
Oh, by the way, just me, no spouse, kids, etc......................
Of course if they are armed (with ANYTHING) and I think they will harm me, there is no need to retreat, empty the mag center mass.
And...............after bed time is a different story. My doors and windows are locked, all the lights are out, no one is awake, meaning that someone would have to be entering my house with something on their mind other than going to the latrine or a midnite snack. At that point it is again, center mass, empty the mag.
Oh, by the way, just me, no spouse, kids, etc......................
Dannavyret
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YOU DON'T SHOOT TO KILL. YOU SHOOT TO STOP THE THREAT WITH LETHAL FORCE.
You shoot center of mass with a double tap and retreat to a defensive barricade and sit tight.
You shoot center of mass with a double tap and retreat to a defensive barricade and sit tight.
Guys, I may be veering us off course, and I am sorry if I am-- but...
I'm an old frat guy. I've seen a LOT of people on everything from alcohol to other substances.
In all those years of undergrad, as well as a number of years serving on the chapter's Alumni Board, I have NEVER met a single intoxicated person that did not respond appropriately to a firmly given instruction-- especially if it was punctuated with a promise of bodily harm as a consequence.
The only one's that continue moving towards you-- in many if not most cases-- are the ones that ARE planning something nasty for you. I've seen that in the dozens of fraternity fights been involved in breaking up. Still, in those cases it was fueled by anger-- not like the situation we are considering.
The mellow drunks are gonna slur something that they think sounds witty asking you to relax. And they tend to be really, really annoying.
Trying to work this scenerio through my head, I sense that it would go one of three ways:
1. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He halts, and they sluggishly begins to process the information. He slurs something disarming and you tell him to get out. He does. Everyone is happy (and alive.)
2. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He comes at you. You repeat for him to not come any closer to you or you will be forced to shoot. He reconsiders his course of action and removes himself from your home. He'll probably kick your cat and pee on your lawn as he goes. Everyone is alive. The cat is NOT happy.
3. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He comes at you. You repeat for him to not come any closer to you or you will be forced to shoot. He ignores you and keeps coming. You fire before he can close within attacking distance. Somewhere between 50% and 100% of the participants are alive depending on shot placement. The cat is unaffected and disinterested.
Bottom line is that I will give a person every opportunity to save his life-- but if he closes to the point that he is a real threat to me against my warning, I can't help him. Even in an intoxicated state, he owns the consequences of his actions every bit as much as he would if he got into a car and hit an innocent person.
-- John
I'm an old frat guy. I've seen a LOT of people on everything from alcohol to other substances.
In all those years of undergrad, as well as a number of years serving on the chapter's Alumni Board, I have NEVER met a single intoxicated person that did not respond appropriately to a firmly given instruction-- especially if it was punctuated with a promise of bodily harm as a consequence.
The only one's that continue moving towards you-- in many if not most cases-- are the ones that ARE planning something nasty for you. I've seen that in the dozens of fraternity fights been involved in breaking up. Still, in those cases it was fueled by anger-- not like the situation we are considering.
The mellow drunks are gonna slur something that they think sounds witty asking you to relax. And they tend to be really, really annoying.
Trying to work this scenerio through my head, I sense that it would go one of three ways:
1. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He halts, and they sluggishly begins to process the information. He slurs something disarming and you tell him to get out. He does. Everyone is happy (and alive.)
2. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He comes at you. You repeat for him to not come any closer to you or you will be forced to shoot. He reconsiders his course of action and removes himself from your home. He'll probably kick your cat and pee on your lawn as he goes. Everyone is alive. The cat is NOT happy.
3. You tell miscellaneous drunk to not to come any closer and that he is breaking into your home. He comes at you. You repeat for him to not come any closer to you or you will be forced to shoot. He ignores you and keeps coming. You fire before he can close within attacking distance. Somewhere between 50% and 100% of the participants are alive depending on shot placement. The cat is unaffected and disinterested.
Bottom line is that I will give a person every opportunity to save his life-- but if he closes to the point that he is a real threat to me against my warning, I can't help him. Even in an intoxicated state, he owns the consequences of his actions every bit as much as he would if he got into a car and hit an innocent person.
-- John
indie
Member
JWarren, i think you made a helpful point that should be discussed in reconciling your state of mind at the time of the incident, with the state of mind of the intoxicated intruder.
I have to not necessarilly disagree, but give an alternate perspective. I've seem my share of drunks too, I have had my moments in college myself where i was that belligerent guy.
and i've seen the "liquid courage" effect. Alot of times intoxicants make people think they are superhuman, and at least, inhibits their ability to assess risks that most sound minded individual wouldn't take..
Drunks and those under the influence of drugs do dangerous things that endanger their lives. Climb energy towers, drive when they can barely walk, pick fights with law enforcement officers or people twice their size for no good reason. I think you have to address an intoxicated person as you would mentally unstable person
I can very well see your firm commands to someone in an intoxicated state being taken as "fighting words" ,or them for lack of sound mind and better judgment, trying to be a wise ass and call your bluff.
I think you raised a great point, but alot of times drunken stupidity can prevent a person from realizing that he is about to potentially lose his life.
When I was in my wilder days in college. I have done things in a drunken state and not realized i have done them until i heard the story later. If an intoxicated person has forced his way into your home, more than likely he isn't going to do well with verbal commands.
I have to not necessarilly disagree, but give an alternate perspective. I've seem my share of drunks too, I have had my moments in college myself where i was that belligerent guy.
and i've seen the "liquid courage" effect. Alot of times intoxicants make people think they are superhuman, and at least, inhibits their ability to assess risks that most sound minded individual wouldn't take..
Drunks and those under the influence of drugs do dangerous things that endanger their lives. Climb energy towers, drive when they can barely walk, pick fights with law enforcement officers or people twice their size for no good reason. I think you have to address an intoxicated person as you would mentally unstable person
I can very well see your firm commands to someone in an intoxicated state being taken as "fighting words" ,or them for lack of sound mind and better judgment, trying to be a wise ass and call your bluff.
I think you raised a great point, but alot of times drunken stupidity can prevent a person from realizing that he is about to potentially lose his life.
When I was in my wilder days in college. I have done things in a drunken state and not realized i have done them until i heard the story later. If an intoxicated person has forced his way into your home, more than likely he isn't going to do well with verbal commands.
frank23185
Member
Are you in fear for your life?
indie
Member
i would be personally in fear for my life the moment i see an intruder in my home, and in fear for the life of my family.
But again, i like to think that my subjective fear might not seem reasonable in front of a jury of people who don't think about the realistic possibilities of a home invasion, even from an apparent stumbling "drunk".
If i see him in my home, disoriented, apparently unarmed. i still feel threatened, however the threat would not seem as imminent as if the person was taking an aggressive stance and still advancing towards me, Rather than retreating or even sitting down where he is.
Comming foward, or even standing squaring off with me in defiance, i would think there is an imminent threat to my life. And would shoot to stop the threat.
But again, i like to think that my subjective fear might not seem reasonable in front of a jury of people who don't think about the realistic possibilities of a home invasion, even from an apparent stumbling "drunk".
If i see him in my home, disoriented, apparently unarmed. i still feel threatened, however the threat would not seem as imminent as if the person was taking an aggressive stance and still advancing towards me, Rather than retreating or even sitting down where he is.
Comming foward, or even standing squaring off with me in defiance, i would think there is an imminent threat to my life. And would shoot to stop the threat.
TnRebel
Member
God I love Living in Florida 
revjen45
Member
"Are you in fear for your life?"
You will be if he is able to contend with you for posession of the gun.
You will be if he is able to contend with you for posession of the gun.
Houston Tom
Member
Ronto & Wedge,
I'm with you my guess is that by the time I get there my Rhodesian Ridgeback will have neutralized the bg, and most likly be back in bed, he really hates to get waken up in the middle of the night unless it is for food. MY job would be to back him up and take the LEO to what ever was left of the bg
I'm with you my guess is that by the time I get there my Rhodesian Ridgeback will have neutralized the bg, and most likly be back in bed, he really hates to get waken up in the middle of the night unless it is for food. MY job would be to back him up and take the LEO to what ever was left of the bg
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
good case for having a dog in the home. if he's obviously drunk but no weapon showing and IF the cops have been called then I would not shoot center mass at all - if I HAD to shoot then it would be leg/hip/groin/foot/ maybe shoulder. but then I'm ex-boxer and could pistol whip the H*#@ out of most anybody. that's why I keep my double bbl 12 ga loaded with hi-brass #5 in right barrel, 000 in left and Makarov holster velcroed to bedpost.
wheelgunslinger
Member
I keep a case or ten of canned tuna (packed in olive oil) by my bed for SHTF and TEOWAWKI purposes. I'd throw tuna cans at him til he left.
If he persisted after the barrage of can projectiles, then I'd have two words for him: Ninja Stars
If he persisted after the barrage of can projectiles, then I'd have two words for him: Ninja Stars
What if it's a trick?
The person breaks in and realizes that you have the drop on him. He pretends to be drunk/high at that moment, hoping that you will make this realization and not shoot. Maybe instead of shooting you will come down stairs to throw him out, at which time he attacks ferociously.
I wouldn't put anything past anybody.
The person breaks in and realizes that you have the drop on him. He pretends to be drunk/high at that moment, hoping that you will make this realization and not shoot. Maybe instead of shooting you will come down stairs to throw him out, at which time he attacks ferociously.
I wouldn't put anything past anybody.
Houston Tom
Member
a while back in here in texas (little fuzzy on the details) I believe it was around houston some drunk teenager was pounding on a door (wrong door it turned out he was looking for a party I think) he did not speak english at least not while drunk tried to force his way in after the owner told him leave and got himself killed. It was ruled justifable eventually.
Hypotheticals, fairy tales, pipe dreams, cocaine-induced hallucinations...
Geez, you could go on forever. Who thinks these things up and why...?
Here's one.
You're standing on a street corner and this mutated 16 foot tall one-eyed rutabaga suddenly makes a beeline for you, unknown intentions brewing in its vegetable mind as it nears.
Do you:
1.) Run like hell! Hoping feverishly that rutabagas (basically being a plant) are pretty much incapable of hauling butt in a manner that matches your motivated velocity.
2.) Pull your CCW and hope that you've chosen the appropriate load/caliber for a deranged vegetable?
3.) Whip out a can of fast-acting RoundUp and hope that rutabagas are susceptible?
Oh, the stress and agony of it all.
What to do, what to do.
So little time, so many choices.
Honestly........
Geez, you could go on forever. Who thinks these things up and why...?
Here's one.
You're standing on a street corner and this mutated 16 foot tall one-eyed rutabaga suddenly makes a beeline for you, unknown intentions brewing in its vegetable mind as it nears.
Do you:
1.) Run like hell! Hoping feverishly that rutabagas (basically being a plant) are pretty much incapable of hauling butt in a manner that matches your motivated velocity.
2.) Pull your CCW and hope that you've chosen the appropriate load/caliber for a deranged vegetable?
3.) Whip out a can of fast-acting RoundUp and hope that rutabagas are susceptible?
Oh, the stress and agony of it all.
What to do, what to do.
So little time, so many choices.
Honestly........
Houston Tom
Member
meef
I would go with a veg-o-matic, it slices, it dices and it jullians
I would go with a veg-o-matic, it slices, it dices and it jullians
mjrodney
Member
A lot of "what if" scenarios on home defense, some that involve tiered, step by step choices that I would find difficult to sort thru if someone were actively breaking into my home.
I certainly do not want to place myself in the position of having to interpret an intruders intent (lost stranger, too much party, just visiting, the Maytag man, Jack the Ripper).
Instead, I go overboard at keeping my place secure, with solid doors, reinforced locks/latches, pinned windows and security lighting. Easy to get out, but not easy to get in.
If someone wants in, they literally will have to violently smash their way in.
And if someone does that, no thinking through various "what if's" are necessary.
From my perspective, only one response is likely.
I certainly do not want to place myself in the position of having to interpret an intruders intent (lost stranger, too much party, just visiting, the Maytag man, Jack the Ripper).
Instead, I go overboard at keeping my place secure, with solid doors, reinforced locks/latches, pinned windows and security lighting. Easy to get out, but not easy to get in.
If someone wants in, they literally will have to violently smash their way in.
And if someone does that, no thinking through various "what if's" are necessary.
From my perspective, only one response is likely.
wheelgunslinger
Member
Meef,
For the mutated rutabaga, or rhtf, I'd take door number one.
I'd run like hell. He'd probably sense that many of his kith and kin had been uprooted and consumed by myself and this would create an angry response in his primitive vegetable brain.
But, lacking the ability to run faster than me, he'd be hopelessly outmatched.
Of course, if he caught me I'd have no choice but to dice him up and cook him with some basmati rice and a little bacon.
I wouldn't want to, but I'd do it just the same. Lousy mutant veggies.
For the mutated rutabaga, or rhtf, I'd take door number one.
I'd run like hell. He'd probably sense that many of his kith and kin had been uprooted and consumed by myself and this would create an angry response in his primitive vegetable brain.
But, lacking the ability to run faster than me, he'd be hopelessly outmatched.
Of course, if he caught me I'd have no choice but to dice him up and cook him with some basmati rice and a little bacon.
I wouldn't want to, but I'd do it just the same. Lousy mutant veggies.
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