Home Defense Question!!

[evbutler462]

Has anyone on this forum ever fired a shotgun round inside a confined space? I am especially referring to those of you that keep a shotgun for home defense. I have no issue with those who wish to defend their home against intruders. I will do so. Don't blame you for defending what is yours.

Is a shotgun the best weapon for home defense? If you think so, I will respect your judgement. I am a retired detective that has seen many incidents involving home defense. In fact, I had to fire a 357 in a home one night and suffered a bursted eardrum as a result. Had I missed with the first shot, I would have been totally helpless as I was completely blind, deaf, and disoriented during the crucial moments afterwards. Back during my law enforcement days, it was the practice to switch out 357 loads for 38 HP rounds when we had to enter a house. But in a foot pursuit, there isn't time.

Many years ago, I read Mayoob's book, I believe it was "In the Gravest Extreme" in which he points out that even a high speed 22 shot at night in a bedroom is not pleasant for the shooter's eyes and ears.

A shotgun with no choke, a cylinder bore, fired from 12 feet, the average size of a bedroom, has a pattern about the size of your hand. A very small pattern. If you don't make the first shot count, you might not get a second chance.

If you want a blinding, deafening experience, go to an abandoned house that is going to be salvaged, or that you can fire out of the window, and fire one round out of your shotgun at night. You will not want to repeat the experience.

I don't know if Mayoob's book is in print now, "In the Gravest Extreme", but if it is, try to get one or borrow one and get some advice from an expert in the field of personal protection. A shotgun, high powered rifle, or big bore pistols are not what you want for inside the home protection.

The maximum he recommends, and I will agree with him, is a 38 with 115 grain HP's in your nightstand drawer. It will give you multiple shots, even though deafening and flashblinding to some extent. My own tip: you can close one eye with the first shot, the other eye with the second shot. The explosion of the 38 is not as disorienting as a shotgun blast in a confined space. He also gives some very helpful tips as to how you can protect your family during a home invasion without having to resort to violence. But in the gravest extreme, use the weapon and load that will not render you helpless.

Outside the home or in a barn that is not insulated and tight, a shotgun might possibly be what is desirable. Not so in your domicile.

Notice that during home raids by police, shotguns are carried in by a couple of cops, but they are not fired. I've never known it to happen. They are the last resort weapon. Very seldom does an officer fire a weapon in a dwelling. Only handguns are used when inside a dwelling, usually.

Those of us who have been in law enforcement and have been through the Quantico combat course will know of what I speak. Some things are very unpleasant and firing a shotgun in an enclosed space at night is among them.

I admire the beautiful HD setups that I have seen on the various shotgun photos. Do you really want to take a chance with one of them in your home?

 

[foghornl]

First up is the 1911-A1. If I run that (& spare mags) dry, then I'm picking up the Maverick 88 12-Ga.

Out of a 5" 'GI-45', with some of the premium defense loads, muzzle flash is not going to be too bad. A lot of the better loads use a low-flash powder, so that helps some.

As much as I like my SA .357 revolvers, they are not my first choice for "HomeLand Security". All the ammo I have for those are fairly stout 158-Gr loads. BIG BANG! and a lot of flash. (I REALLY like my 'Sheriff's Model" Vaquero, but with a stiff load in that 3-1/2" or so barrel.....can you say blind shooting?

 

[ZeSpectre]

My bedside safe contains a firearm, flashlight, and muffs. Nuff said.

 

[evbutler462]

Good idea, Foghorn, muzzle flash and deafening noise from a shotgun are very disorienting. I like your idea of a 45. Low muzzle flash, plenty loud, though. When it runs dry, do what you have to do.

I keep a Taurus 85 in my nightstand drawer. I don't want it under the mattress where I will have it compressed with my body while trying to grab for it. Sometimes, I just lay it on the floor under my bed and place a magazine over it. Of course, it is on my person the remainder of the time. I don't want my grandchildren to find it. As a last resort, I have a 20 gauge Nova loaded for bear but I hope I never have to use either.

My reason for this post is to make members aware of the hazards to themselves of using a shotgun in a HD situation. We don't want to be even momentarily disoriented, blinded, and deafened while a bad guy is intent on doing harm. It is a real bad situation when one fires a shotgun in an enclosed place. While you are trying to get your bearings, the perp can do whatever he wants, including taking your gun. This is real, guys, not fantasy. He may be affected by the same problems, but he is a lot further from the gun than you are and can recover faster, if not hit with the first shot.

 

[Rob1035]

While you are trying to get your bearings, the perp can do whatever he wants, including taking your gun.

I thought the entire purpose for using a shotgun for HD was that the perp would be a lot more than 'disoriented' after you use your shotgun....

 

[evbutler462]

Rob1035,

The pattern of a shotgun at home defense range is very small. IF you hit the guy with the first shot, GREAT!! If you don't, you might be in more trouble than you want. For example, he might be looking away from the blast, you may miss with that first shot, the perp may be in another room but in your line of sight prior to firing. Lots of ifs. Too many. All this while you are disoriented by not being able to see or hear anything.

Who wants to put on earmuffs while trying to locate an initial entry? May be a great idea but it hampers your being able to locate your perp. A flashlight is absolutely the wrong thing to have in your hand. This gives the bad guy you location. Most people know their room layouts in their mind and can find their way around quietly without a light. Let the perp make the noise as he does not know where everything is as he stumbles around looking for something to pawn for drugs. The shuck of a pump gun gives your location to him.

I have no issue with anyone that wants to use a shotgun for HD. I just want to share some real life thoughts. I love the looks of the HD guns and they can be quite effective under the right circumstances. We don't want to make a bad situation worse by incapacitating ourselves during a critical time frame.

After 30+ years as a beat cop, patrol officer, and detective, I claim some expertise in interviewing victims and investigating home invasions.

The best advice I can give is to call 911 and lock the bedroom door. Your address is automatically shown to dispatch. However, the cops may not arrive in time and you have to do what is necessary. But, I recommend that you do it with good judgement so that you don't come out on the wrong end of the story.

 

[Rob1035]

fair enough.

I'd like to see some numbers on the sounds between various types of firearms.

 

[Bix]

With respect, evbutler462, dealing with muzzle blast and flash strikes me as more of a training issue than an equipment issue.

My experience has been that the more time I spend shooting my shotgun, the less the muzzle blast affects me (the same, incidentally, is true of pistols). I've fired my shotgun indoors, in low light, and I don't find the muzzle flash particularly troubling (wearing eyes and ears, of course). The OO buck load I use (TAP) has a flash retardant powder, which may help account for this.

But even firing full power slugs at night (which produce more muzzle flash out of my barrel than anything else), I am able to get a followthrough sight picture on the target.

In terms of actual noise, a 12ga load out of an 18" barrel produces 161.5dB. A .38 special, 156.3dB, and the very common 9mm 159.8dB.
[source: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=2052 ]. I understand that the decibel scale is logarithmic, but I have to wonder what practical difference 5.2 or 1.7 decibels makes in terms of disorientation. Firing any weapon in self-defense is going to be loud. I suspect that those who have put in their training hours will be able to work through that, regardless of the platform they are working (training v. equipment).

I know that I can fight a heck of a lot more effectively with a shotgun than I can with any handgun -- particularly in a "baracade in the bedroom and call the cops" home defense senario. So, for me, that's the clear choice. I understand the limitations and do my best to work with them.

fired from 12 feet, the average size of a bedroom, has a pattern about the size of your hand

Actually, the TAP loads out of my gun print a pattern the size of a shot cup at that distance .

 

[Rob1035]

That's what I was getting at Bix (12g dB vs .38 dB)

I don't ever want to shoot any of my firearms in my home, with or without hearing/eye protection.

 

[mjrodney]

This post raises two good points.

One, is the need for low flash ammo. No reason not to use it.

I don't currently, but that will change, now.

Second, it supports that which I do have, and that's a designated "safe room", 5 feet from the bed, that we or she can retreat to, if necessary.

Behind that lockable door is kept a good supply of armament, a blinding flashlight and a cell phone.

Toilet paper too, cause I'll likely need it.

 

[CWL]

Fair enough argument, but if it's a "me or him" situation, I'd rather recover from burst eardrums than lead ventilation. My trust in my 12ga is complete, my trust in .45ACP is not 100%.

Btw, I have survived an artillery barrage in my early life, and all I could hear was the sound of my own heartbeat. Auditory exclusion during times of stress is true.

 

[shooter1]

Well, never fired a shotgun in my house, but have fired them a lot in "Shoot Houses" in the dark. Hearing and eye protection, of course! Never had much problem with muzzle flash blinding me with with anything we fired. The worst being the short barreled, compensated ARs. (Both noise & flash) Even survived a negilent discharge of a shotgun into the celing, by my brother-in-law. No hearing protection I might add. Probably damaged my hearing, but certainly didn't incapicate me. If someone is in my house with ill intent, I'll use whatever I have at hand to solve the problem. The least of which is some minor hearing loss. Guess the ideal HD setup would be a suppressed .22 with a flash hider! Oh well, guess I'll keep my HD toys and let those who wish to, worry about nonsense.
str1

 

[evbutler462]

Gentlemen,

I am not trying to start a fan fire. Just passing along some valuable info that I hope will be appreciated. Your personal opinions and experiences are of value to me as I evaluate each to gather info for my own use. Please give me the same honors. We owe each other that much. If one bit of info can save a life, let's talk about it.

Thank you for your input.

 

[Plink]

I understand that the decibel scale is logarithmic, but I have to wonder what practical difference 5.2 or 1.7 decibels makes in terms of disorientation.

A difference of 1.7 db will be "noticeably" louder, but a difference of 5.2 will be perceived as three times as loud. That's a big difference. How it will effect your disorientation, I don't know. But it's a big part of my philosophy of using the lowest pressure cartridges that have adequate stopping power. .45 ACP and 12 guage are plenty loud as it is. Why use something even louder?

 

[CZ52GUY]

I think this is good dialogue and a relevant issue to consider. However, I don't believe the DB rating should be determinative when selecting a HD weapon.

I think too often many of us consider our own circumstances the most valid "use case" and then offer council to others based on views we've established looking through that prism.

We don't all share the same threat risks.
We don't all share the same LE response times.
We don't all share the same "neighbor proximity" risks.
We don't all share the same competency with various platforms.
We don't all share the same perspectives regarding optimal execution of a HD scenario
We don't all share identical values in terms of "survival vs. victory"

Mas Ayoob does indeed cover much of this ground in the excellent book In the Gravest Extreme. I read it cover to cover in one sitting, and it actually convinced me to drop out of LFI-1. The risks of using lethal force are significant in the world we live in. I came to the conclusion that I would damned if I did and damned if I didn't and that I didn't need to take a week of non-family vacation time to learn about that.

Don't get me wrong, I know several LFI-1 graduates that heartily endorse that class as the very best they have ever taken.

The use of lethal force in defense of hearth and home is a serious topic, and the potential for unintentional self-incapacitation by whatever means merits consideration.

I see the posts above as being largely respectful with some firm disagreements. There's nothing wrong with that among honorable men and women.

Because of the differences in individual circumstance I referenced above, some amount of firm disagreement is unavoidable, and I'd suggest useful to consider the differing perspectives.

Keep Safe,

CZ52'

 

[revolverman357]

I use low noise, low flash ammo.

 

[Juna]

This is a valid consideration. According to the excellent article on the hearing loss associated with firearms linked above, virtually any caliber firearm of any barrel lenth--pistol, rifle, or shotgun--is going to potentially damage your hearing forever. I've been around a .38 spl, 9mm, and .22LR without hearing protection in one (thankfully outdoor) setting in my life, and never again will I go without hearing protection unless I have no choice.

That said, hearing protection will greatly diminish your ability to hear and locate the intruder (or police, for that matter). I agree with the OP in that shooting would be my absolute last resort. However, if it came to it, I'd use whatever firearm was most easily available at the time. I would give my hearing protection to my wife and/or kid(s), though, to at least spare her/their ears should I need to fire a weapon.

It's a valid point to consider, at any rate, and I thank the OP for posting it.

 

[ATAShooter]

At 12 feet, There aint no pattern. Hell, it'll probably be the wad that kill him.. hahaha

 

[shooter1]

I agree that no one would want to discharge a weapon, any weapon, in a confined area without hearing protection if it could be avoided. That said, when my life, or that of my family, are on the line, I plan to use the most effective means possible to survive. Having to wear a hearing aid the rest of my life would be a small price to pay for survival. If someone has the presence of mind, and the time to put on electronic hearing protection when they hear a bump in the night, it wouldn't be a handicap. It might even help you hear the bad guy moving. Not for me tho, I like to keep it simple. Using the low recoil/flash ammo now available wouldn't be a bad idea.
str1

 

[HiVelocity]

My .02 worth.........

Many of you may not like my suggestion and/or comment regarding this issue.

First, there are many factors that effect your hearing and eyesight inside a house. Lighting inside the house, ambient lighting outside the house, shadows, to name a few. As an experienced police officer I "Offer" the following suggestions and steps to secure your home and what to do in the event you have to investigate a bump in the night.

First, call 9-1-1 and set the phone down. Remember, all 9-1-1 calls are recorded. In a loud voice say, "I need the police at (your address) immediately, I have an intruder!" Stay within shouting distance of your phone unless you need to move to take cover. This alone may scare off the intruder.

Note 1- Utilizing a 12ga pump shotgun, load with simple birdshot. Buckshot and slugs will penetrate sheetrock and destroy whatever is on the other side. Birdshot is deadly out to 25 yards [well within the length of most homes]. I've seen it first hand on soft tissue. Low recoil, minimum blast.

Note 2- Every home should have a "House Gun". I've set up a Glock 23 with both a LaserMax and a M3 light. Loaded with Speer Gold Dots, I'll investigate anything in the night. The great thing here is that you can, with practice, blind and identify an intruder with a quick flash of the flashlight on the pistol with a quick movement of your forefinger.

With him disoriented, the pulsing laser dot on his/her chest will more than likely make them mess their pants in short order. This with loud commands to lay down on the ground/floor with your hands out, palms up, usually works. BTW- you don't stay in the same spot from where you "flashed" your subject. You move quickly while they're disoriented.

Lastly, if you have to shoot with either a pistol or a shotgun inside your house, chances are that you won't hear anything. This is common in most shootings inside a home where the act is real.

Again, just my .02 worth; Food for Thought.


JK in SC

 

[shooter1]

Lastly, if you have to shoot with either a pistol or a shotgun inside your house, chances are that you won't hear anything. This is common in most shootings inside a home where the act is real.

Audio exclusion, is quite common in "Fight or Flight" situtations.
str1

 

[Eyesac]

I think you guys just made the argument to get a supressor. $200 one time fee isn't much compared to most pistols...

 

[evbutler462]

Hivelocity,

Your Note 1 has been a favorite of mine for many years. Those of us in law enforcement who have watched and photo'd many autopsies involving homicides know that birdshot, from 6's -8's will more than do the job for home defense. It makes more puncture wounds after entry than most surgeons can repair. Buckshot, unless it is at very close range, makes a few puncture wounds and unless it hits a vital organ, the bad guy can be patched up. A wound with small shot, even at 30-40 feet, is really hard to survive. It does tremendous tissue damage. Go to the morgue, as we had to do after a long weekend and photo the bodies there as the result of bullet wounds and shotgun blasts. It is unbelievable the damage that small shot can do.

Thanks to every gentleman who responded to this post. It has been a pleasure learning your various responses.

 

[cngerms]

My own tip: you can close one eye with the first shot, the other eye with the second shot.

I'm not sure I understand the advantages of this practice. The pupils of human eyes do NOT dilate and constrict independently. If one pupil (open eye) is greatly constricted because of a flash of light, the other pupil will be greatly constricted as well even though the eye was closed.

This principle makes me more inclined to choose my shotgun for home defense. After becoming deaf and blind from the first round from either a handgun or a shotgun, I'd prefer to have the palm-sized load of 9-12 pellets in the follow-up shot instead one round fired blindly.

 

[ARTiger]

Yes. Not recommended. 4 years ago opening day of Dove season . . . rattlesnake vs. 12 ga. pump w/ #9 shot 2 3/4" shells inside an old tool shed that was maybe 10'X15'. I couldnt hear for about 5 minutes and then my ears rang the rest of the day accompanied by a terrible headache. The snake was worse off though.