Home Defense Question!!

[evbutler462]

I will add one more comment, not to discredit anyone, but to give actual experience. I had the unplesant duty of firing a 357 inside a house at night doing my duty. The perp fortunately was taken down by the first shot. Believe me that I "HEARD" it and my hearing was gone momentarily as well as my sight. I was totally disoriented for several minutes. It was as if time was in slow motion until I gradually came to my senses. I have tinnutis 20+ years later and a ruptured eardrum that I will have the rest of my life.

Respectfully, anyone that has not been there, done that can only guess as to how their senses will react. The officers I have talked with that have been in similar situations give me similar reactions. The home owners that have been interviewed gave remarkably similar stories as to their senses ceasing to function and their disorientation that follows is unreal. It is one thing to think you will act normally and not hear the shot or see the muzzle flash. Those of us who have been there, done that know differently. The adrenalin flow begins when a shooting is imminent and increases dramatically when the battle begins.

The home defense weapon is a weapon of choice. I hope that you will never need to fire a weapon of any kind in anger. Several fine, knowledgeable people have spoken, some of them LEO's. We have nothing to gain by misleading you. Just good advice that may save your life and that of your family. I have read much common sense in this forum from many informative members.

I am also sure that some Rambo types have read this post and skipped over it because their minds are made up that they will use their short barelled shotguns with the fancy gadgets at first opportunity. These types are ones I am trying to get a message across to. We have picked up the pieces when these types messed up and became the victims due to errors in judging what happens when they fire that round in a confined space. The bad guy doesn't always get hit on that important first shot. Then he has the upper hand unless he is very close to the muzzle blast.

I will follow Hivelocity's advice as he knows of what he speaks. If you must defend your home, use a weapon with low muzzle flash, maybe a reduced load handgun or birdshot of the game variety such as promotional dove shot when the handgun runs dry.

Thanks cngerms for advising me on pupil dilation. We learn from each other.

Shooter1, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion as to audio exclusion. Thaks for your input as that was your personal experience. Thanks for sharing it.

CZ552Guy, good thinking. Very good.

CWL, I was an artillery officer in the 1950's before ear protection was in vogue. Shot 40MM AAAs from M141 dual turrets out in the open. Plenty loud. Nothing compared to a confined space shot.

ARTiger, I read you loud and clear, and I am still hard of hearing.

To everyone else, excellent thinking. Be careful, gents. The life you save may be your own.

 

[MikePGS]

Geat post evbutler! I always like to hear new information and opinions in regards to firearms, and this is something i haven't given too much thought to, but have been pretty interesting it nonetheless. Thanks for opening the dialouge on this subject, and its great to see everyones opinions/knowledge/experience.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Sound suppressors take out both flash and much of the noise, not to mention much of the felt recoil.

 

[Albatross]

I don't think I was born last night, but... They make silencers for shotguns?

I thought they are an auto pistol/rifle thing.

 

[shooter1]

evbutler,
I appreciate your sharing your experiences and thoughts with us. My experiences have differed somewhat from yours, which is not surprising as we are two different individuals. As former military, and now retired LE, I have been exposed to a LOT of gunfire. Both incoming and outgoing. On two occasions I have experienced audio exclusion. My experience was simular to many, but not all, of my comrades. I have some hearing loss in the high frequency ranges, but still hear quite well. Like eyesac, I think you may have made a case for supressors. Hey, I've always wanted one anyway!
str1

 

[Dave McCracken]

About 20 years ago I was receiving some CERT team training when this came up. The date on hand then suggested that firing off buck in a shotgun in an inclosed area would damage hearing, but not completely deafen someone.

5.56mm will just about deafen anyone, so will 7.62X39mm, Hot magnum loads from handguns with short barrels will also,IIRC.

Good thread.....

 

[ZeSpectre]

Good GOD, I hate to imagine firing 7.62x39 (or my .30-30 for that matter) in a small area like the hallway in my house without ear protection.

 

[anidar]

close one eye with the first shot

[blockquote]Shenandoah Valley, VA
Posts: 147 Quote:
My own tip: you can close one eye with the first shot, the other eye with the second shot.

I'm not sure I understand the advantages of this practice. The pupils of human eyes do NOT dilate and constrict independently. If one pupil (open eye) is greatly constricted because of a flash of light, the other pupil will be greatly constricted as well even though the eye was closed.
[/blockquote]

I saw something similar to this on mythbusters it was about pirates and why they wear eyepatches, they wore them so when they went below deck they could move the patch to the other eye and be able to see better in the dark. When it was tested it seem to work really well so I don,t know about the eyes constricting together.
If that doesn't work why not close both eyes on the first shot?

 

[ZeSpectre]

The eyepatch thing doesn't have to do with the eyes constricting. Eyes constrict and dialate in fractions of a second. It's the chemical reaction within the rods and cones that affect night vision and can take 20-30 minutes to completely adjust after an exposure to light.

 

[cngerms]

Here's a simple eye test for fun:

1. Stand closely to a mirror
2. Using a narrowly focused, MILDLY BRIGHT flashlight, shine the bulk of light in one eye and watch the opposite eye constrict equally with the eye receiving the light.
3. When the flashlight is pulled away, both eyes equally dilate

Of course, this is true for everyone NOT suffering from Anisocoria, Horner's syndrome, or some pathology such as Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome (place your beer on the table and slowly step away) HA!

Yes, you could close BOTH eyes if you're willing to take that chance!!!

 

[Stump Water]

Interesting topic.

I think I'll begin development of some custom HD shotgun ammo. Right now the SG is loaded with some factory "low recoil, low noise" number 8s. I think I can get even lower recoil/noise.

Off to the press, then to the range.

 

[flashman70]

Great thread. Guess I'll take the .357's out of my S&W 686 and substitute .38s. also put # 4 or #6 in the shottie.

 

[V-fib]

good post for thought,my .02

My home defense weapon of choice is the 12g with light target loads and 000 buck for backup. I do have a pair of muffs hanging right next to the gun in the closet. They are there mainly for putting on if I need to do any quick varmit hunting.
Our defense plan includes a well secured house and we lock our bedroom door. In a home invasion situation I’ve never thought that I would use the muffs but I did get an idea from this post in what I use when I hunt.
I deer hunt in a 8x8 fully enclosed blind . I generally fire out of a 2x2 window in the blind. A few years ago concerned with the possible ear damage from my 30.06 I started to use ear plugs when I hunt. However these are not your average ear plugs. They are the North Sonic II plugs which allow you to hear normal and low sound but block anythingvery loud like gunfire. I used to put them in my ears when I first saw game but now as soon as I set foot outside to walk to my blind I put them in my ears and keep them in for the full days hunt. I can hear leaves rustle and squirrels and birds but when I fire that 06 in the enclosed space the sound is muted nicely.
Since I plan on staying in the locked bedroom in the event of a home invasion I think that I just might keep a pair at the bedside and pop them in. I’ll still be able to hear any sounds outside and in my house but if I’m forced to use my weapon I will probably not be as disorientated by the loud blast.

 

[Surplussoldier]

What about a pistol calibre carbine? Would .357 in an 18.5" barrel, or .40 S&W in a 16" barrel produce noticeable less muzzle flash and noise?

 

[Jim K]

Let me see if I have this straight. You become aware of an intruder you know is not supposed to be in your house.

So you put on dark shooting glasses so you can't see him, don ear muffs so you can't hear him, and set off to stalk him with a long shotgun that won't put out a pattern much larger than the bore. Is there something wrong with this picture?

Jim

 

[ZeSpectre]

Well the way my place is laid out I put on my muffs to protect my ears and sit with my gun poking out the bedroom doorway which allows me to cover almost everything else while my wife calls 911. I sit very still and let them do the moving.

 

[ARGarrison]

I've fired a 12 gauge pump shotgun 18 1/2" barrel inside a two car garage. I was young and foolish. It wasn't do or die, but a messed up crimp on a reload with a shotgun to close. Garage was closed up except for the window I opened to shoot out of. I won't say I'll never do it again, but it will be do or die next time.

 

[Shrinkmd]

Guess I'll take the .357's out of my S&W 686

When I get thinking this way, I start wondering if 15 rounds of 9mm +P JHPs might be the way to go. More oomph than the 38 specials, and less worry about running out of ammo (God forbid). I still like the idea of a revolver for HD duty as far as the minimal maintenance, though. I think using an auto I would want to lube it a little and fuss with it every week or so, which could result it lube getting on the primers or other problems. The revolver is simpler, at least for this use. A bit off topic for the shotgun group, though...

 

[TYY]

RE: vision changes

Yes, pupillary constiction is consensual, i.e. the other eye will contrict, but that is not the issue. The issue is the afterimage created by a big flash when the pupil is dilated. As was said above it has everything to do with your rods and cones. That is why the eye patch thing works, and why switching eyes after your first shot would work, but good look remembering to do that in the heat of the battle!!

 

[mjrodney]

One added thought about bright flashes....

A friend purchased a new multiple-LED light and a discussion ensued on how best to use it.....always on, as in a search.......or left off until the BG is near you and then turned on to momentarily blind the perp.

Ok, I said, "how bright is that thing"?

In daylight, in a windowed office further illuminated by florescent lighting, he pointed that light towards me and turned it on.

My reaction was instant and IN-voluntary. My eyes closed and my head turned away from the light.

No conscious thoughts about avoiding the light...one moment I was looking at him, and the next thing I know, I'm looking at the wall.

It took me a number of seconds before I turned back towards him.

So, not having fired a handgun or a shotgun indoors and in the dark before, I wonder if the same reaction would result........on both ends of the firearm?

 

[shooter1]

Shrinkmd,
Not much fuss involved with a pistol used as a house gun. Clean it properly, lube it lightly, and it will work when needed a year from now. The worse thing you can do is over lube, and turn the pistol into a trash magnet. If you lube any gun enough to worry about killing the primers, you're using waaaaaaaaay too much lubricant! Back on topic. I have fired thousands of rounds in night shoots. The shorty ARs have the brighest muzzle flash over the shottys and pistols. I think the muzzle flash thing is a lot less of a problem than most people imagine. Everyone needs to do a little night shooting themselves to see how it effects them. A lot of clubs hold IDPA night matches, I highly reccomend everyone who has the option shoot one for the experience. Hey, it's fun too!
str1

 

[camslam]

Great post and discussion. There is always something I learn in these forums. This is a great subject to think about. While I gather the consensus from most in this thread is they would rather not have to shoot a LOUD gun at night in an enclosed area, if the situation calls for it, you'd better be ready to do it.

As for the idea of low recoil, less noise, rounds, including the idea of using bird shot. I have read several articles where people survived being shot with bird shot. Here in Utah recently at the Trolley Square shooting, some of the people that were shot and survived, were shot with bird shot. One guy had I think had 70+ shots taken out of him. After being shot, he was still able to get to the door of another business and tell people to get down and lock themselves in.

There were also some that didn't make it that were shot with birdshot, but they were shot at point blank range, from what I have read and learned about that situation. Judging from different tests run, unless you are fairly close and get a direct shot, there is just not enough power in bird shot to effectively put someone down permanently. I have 00 buck loaded in my shotgun and I plan to keep it that way. I train on a regular basis and feel confident that I can hit anyone at any range they could be at, in my house. I'll take the chance on the recoil, sound, and flash. When you or your families life is on the line, I don't feel like taking a chance. That being said, I will be implementing more low light or no light shooting into my training from here out.

Thanks again for the post and for all the ideas on this one.

 

[subierex]

After having fired a both a .270 and .357 mag without ear protection once (outside), I have to say that I wouldn't want to shoot any firearm inside my house. My ears rang for hours after the .270.