Home defense
- Thread starter mrslim
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I think it would behoove the discussion and your eventual selection to identify what makes a good HD shotgun and what what guns have those attributes. IMHO there are a great many shotguns that will serve a component user very well.
At a minimum a HD shotgun should:
1) Be reliable. It would probably be easier to list guns that are not reliable enough than those that are. The main point on this issues seems to be between pumps and auto loaders. Those that advocate pumps rest their argument on the fact that the pump is mechanically more reliable. Those who advocate for auto loaders (or at a minimum find fault with the argument just given) point out that the pump requires human opertion and experience seems to have shown that a good auto loader is more reliable than the human working the slide.
2) Have a light. I am in the camp that sees a light as essential. Most of the critiques I read of having a light on the gun seems to display an ignorance in how to use that tool or at least a lack of fully considering how it might be used.
3) Be a gun you can handle and wield effectively. This is one part hardware and one part software. The gun needs to be something that fits the user and that the user physically is capable or using and manipulating. The user needs to be up to speed on how to do those things.
Almost any reliable shotgun could be used for HD. I find the following to be advantageous in a shotgun dedicated to that purpose. They are in no particular order
A compact package. It may not be essential but I find my guns with 20, 19" and 18.5" barrels respectively to be an advantage. I like shorter LOP stocks that fit the way I shoot.
Tight patterns. Different ammo will perform differently in different guns and chokes and barrel work can affect this. Most guns will pattern tight enough for most houses. Do to my particular circumstances and preferences I like a gun that patterns nice and tight.
Good capacity. I'm sure someone will say that you don't need more than 5 or 6 rounds of 12 gauge etc etc etc. I am also sure there are situations in which that has proven the case. That said I would rather have more than less to the point that weight/length doesn't become a hindrance. I wouldn't run a 26" barrel and an X rail to have 23 rounds, but on my tube gun I have an extension that allows for 7+1 on an 18.5" barrel. My preferred gun is 10 +1 More rounds within reason is an advantage.
Side saddle (on a tube gun). Some people do not like them or think they are needed on a HD gun. I do because the shotgun is a low capacity weapon to begin with and in HD you are likely to only have what is on the gun when you grab it a side saddle with a source of ammo to feed the tube seems prudent. It also allows me to carry slugs, which for some may not be a consideration but for my circumstances etc is something I prefer.
Recoil pad. I think a defense gun ought to be something one trains with and will put a fair number of rounds through. To that end a recoil pad is nice to have
My main "HD shotguns" are a both auto loaders. I think they present advantages over pump guns. I also have pump guns and they are clearly a viable choice and often much cheaper than good autos.
As to guns there are more than I will think of to list that can serve you just fine and they fall all across the price spectrum. Everything from the import clone pump guns like the Hawk 981/982, pardner pump, etc to the Benelli M4 and custom guns from night hawk and Wilson combat and the various Saiga conversions. In sum, you can spend a $150 and have a viable HD gun or spend.
These high dollar guns might do a good job of fulfilling your requirement of a "wicked" gun and they are nice guns but for HD in many respects one reaches the point of diminishing returns pretty quickly on the price scale IMHO.
In sum there are dozens of shotguns that are good choices for HD. There are unfortunately proprtionately many fewer good shot gunners. If the choice was between a benelli M4 on one hand and a pardner pump and a trip to thunder ranch for a week on the other I'd go with the latter if I was serious about HD. Of course if finances permit there is not reason to not get the M4 and a week at thunder ranch.
As for the pics, it is not everyone's cup of tea but it is a gun that has proven boringly reliable and that I have a lot of trigger time on. It is a platform that one runs differently than a tube fed gun but IMHO offers some notable advantages (and of course its own set of quirks).
At a minimum a HD shotgun should:
1) Be reliable. It would probably be easier to list guns that are not reliable enough than those that are. The main point on this issues seems to be between pumps and auto loaders. Those that advocate pumps rest their argument on the fact that the pump is mechanically more reliable. Those who advocate for auto loaders (or at a minimum find fault with the argument just given) point out that the pump requires human opertion and experience seems to have shown that a good auto loader is more reliable than the human working the slide.
2) Have a light. I am in the camp that sees a light as essential. Most of the critiques I read of having a light on the gun seems to display an ignorance in how to use that tool or at least a lack of fully considering how it might be used.
3) Be a gun you can handle and wield effectively. This is one part hardware and one part software. The gun needs to be something that fits the user and that the user physically is capable or using and manipulating. The user needs to be up to speed on how to do those things.
Almost any reliable shotgun could be used for HD. I find the following to be advantageous in a shotgun dedicated to that purpose. They are in no particular order
A compact package. It may not be essential but I find my guns with 20, 19" and 18.5" barrels respectively to be an advantage. I like shorter LOP stocks that fit the way I shoot.
Tight patterns. Different ammo will perform differently in different guns and chokes and barrel work can affect this. Most guns will pattern tight enough for most houses. Do to my particular circumstances and preferences I like a gun that patterns nice and tight.
Good capacity. I'm sure someone will say that you don't need more than 5 or 6 rounds of 12 gauge etc etc etc. I am also sure there are situations in which that has proven the case. That said I would rather have more than less to the point that weight/length doesn't become a hindrance. I wouldn't run a 26" barrel and an X rail to have 23 rounds, but on my tube gun I have an extension that allows for 7+1 on an 18.5" barrel. My preferred gun is 10 +1 More rounds within reason is an advantage.
Side saddle (on a tube gun). Some people do not like them or think they are needed on a HD gun. I do because the shotgun is a low capacity weapon to begin with and in HD you are likely to only have what is on the gun when you grab it a side saddle with a source of ammo to feed the tube seems prudent. It also allows me to carry slugs, which for some may not be a consideration but for my circumstances etc is something I prefer.
Recoil pad. I think a defense gun ought to be something one trains with and will put a fair number of rounds through. To that end a recoil pad is nice to have
My main "HD shotguns" are a both auto loaders. I think they present advantages over pump guns. I also have pump guns and they are clearly a viable choice and often much cheaper than good autos.
As to guns there are more than I will think of to list that can serve you just fine and they fall all across the price spectrum. Everything from the import clone pump guns like the Hawk 981/982, pardner pump, etc to the Benelli M4 and custom guns from night hawk and Wilson combat and the various Saiga conversions. In sum, you can spend a $150 and have a viable HD gun or spend.
These high dollar guns might do a good job of fulfilling your requirement of a "wicked" gun and they are nice guns but for HD in many respects one reaches the point of diminishing returns pretty quickly on the price scale IMHO.
In sum there are dozens of shotguns that are good choices for HD. There are unfortunately proprtionately many fewer good shot gunners. If the choice was between a benelli M4 on one hand and a pardner pump and a trip to thunder ranch for a week on the other I'd go with the latter if I was serious about HD. Of course if finances permit there is not reason to not get the M4 and a week at thunder ranch.
As for the pics, it is not everyone's cup of tea but it is a gun that has proven boringly reliable and that I have a lot of trigger time on. It is a platform that one runs differently than a tube fed gun but IMHO offers some notable advantages (and of course its own set of quirks).
ColtPythonElite
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I don't need a wicked looking, tactical shotgun for home defense. Any shorter barreled pump suits me just fine. I don't see the need to break the bank. If I were going to buy new, I'd just get a Maverick 88 Security.
WeedWacker
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memphisjim
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I've had a saiga 12 and A SxS coach gun but ended dropping them for a pump ( i chose benelli supernova tac) I liked the look ghost rings sites and 3.5 inch chamber. There are accessories out there for them but I tend to minimally accessorize a gun. If I was big on gadgets I would have gone mossberg or rem 870
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Any full-stocked pump (or proven-reliable auto) 12 or 20 ga. with a medium-to-short barrel will work very well for what you need.
Mossberg 500 (or its Maverick cousin), Rem 870, or any of the old Ithaca 37, High-Standard, Win Model 12, etc. "riot" guns. At the moment, there's not much reason to spend over $250 for a perfectly servicable version of one of these.
Wood stocks are nice, but synthetic is fine, too. It would not be a bad idea to look for one with a magazine holding between ~5 and ~8 rounds. Fewer is lighter and handier, but having more shots between reloading is nice.
Avoid hanging gee-gaw bits off your gun. You don't need lasers, vertical foregrips, heat shields, bayonets, tactical rails, compex sights, folding stocks, etc., etc. A white light is a very good idea, but make sure you get some real training in how to use it, so you aren't just standing there with it on like a lighthouse in the fog.
The stock's length-of-pull should be something you are comfortable using in a defesive setting. Some guys are going to quite short (~12.5" or so) LOP, using a more "squared-up" stance. You need a lot of range time to determine that.
The most "wicked" defensive shotgun in the world is a pane-jane model with the bluing worn off the action bars and a huge pile of empty hulls bedside it. In other words, invest in YOU, and the gun will do its part.
Mossberg 500 (or its Maverick cousin), Rem 870, or any of the old Ithaca 37, High-Standard, Win Model 12, etc. "riot" guns. At the moment, there's not much reason to spend over $250 for a perfectly servicable version of one of these.
Wood stocks are nice, but synthetic is fine, too. It would not be a bad idea to look for one with a magazine holding between ~5 and ~8 rounds. Fewer is lighter and handier, but having more shots between reloading is nice.
Avoid hanging gee-gaw bits off your gun. You don't need lasers, vertical foregrips, heat shields, bayonets, tactical rails, compex sights, folding stocks, etc., etc. A white light is a very good idea, but make sure you get some real training in how to use it, so you aren't just standing there with it on like a lighthouse in the fog.
The stock's length-of-pull should be something you are comfortable using in a defesive setting. Some guys are going to quite short (~12.5" or so) LOP, using a more "squared-up" stance. You need a lot of range time to determine that.
The most "wicked" defensive shotgun in the world is a pane-jane model with the bluing worn off the action bars and a huge pile of empty hulls bedside it. In other words, invest in YOU, and the gun will do its part.
Geckgo
Member
Wicked??? Get something black and paint a giant red pentacle on the stock, and get one of those stand-off chokes with a big claw on the end of it.
Home Defense, get a shotgun, 12 or 20ga, and keep it by your bed. Most of the time all you will need to do is hold it on the door to your bedroom while you call the police. If you will be leaving your bedroom (maybe you have kids/pets?) then I recommend something with a short barrel.
I haven't got mine yet, waiting on tax money, so the XD is "holding down the fort" at the moment, but even though it will probably become my primary home defense weapon, it's primary uses will be hunting, range time, skeet, trap, etc. I choose:
Remington Express Tactical
The second I get it I'm ripping the breeching choke off the end and patterning it with remchokes until I get a pattern/load that I like. Might swap the normal rifle stock to something with a pistol grip, as rifle stocks tend to hurt my wrist after practice sessions.
Home Defense, get a shotgun, 12 or 20ga, and keep it by your bed. Most of the time all you will need to do is hold it on the door to your bedroom while you call the police. If you will be leaving your bedroom (maybe you have kids/pets?) then I recommend something with a short barrel.
I haven't got mine yet, waiting on tax money, so the XD is "holding down the fort" at the moment, but even though it will probably become my primary home defense weapon, it's primary uses will be hunting, range time, skeet, trap, etc. I choose:
Remington Express Tactical
The second I get it I'm ripping the breeching choke off the end and patterning it with remchokes until I get a pattern/load that I like. Might swap the normal rifle stock to something with a pistol grip, as rifle stocks tend to hurt my wrist after practice sessions.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
I once wrote up a scenario in which the, now standard it seems, breecher standoff was useful in a home-defense setting.
IIRC, it went something like this ...
"Hello, 911? Yes, I need HELP! I'm trapped in my house and I can't get out! All I have is my home defense shotgun! ... What? ... Yes, it DOES have a breecher standoff. ... Yes, I DO happen to have some sintered breeching slugs handy! ... I should what? ... Blow off my own hinges? Why that's a GREAT idea! Thanks 911! <BOOM ... shuck ... BOOM> ... I'm FREEEEE!"
76shuvlinoff
Member
Not that I'm against progress but there was a time when the home defense shotgun had a single barrel and was loaded from the business end.
Start with a pump with an 18 to 20 inch smooth bore barrel and an action that's about 1/3 worn out, pick some ammo that works (now there's a whole nuther debate) then run it till you KNOW it. Season to taste.
The "wicked" comes from the operator.
Start with a pump with an 18 to 20 inch smooth bore barrel and an action that's about 1/3 worn out, pick some ammo that works (now there's a whole nuther debate) then run it till you KNOW it. Season to taste.
The "wicked" comes from the operator.
This is one I built up for just because. I personally do not think you need any more than 2 3/4 inch rounds for home defense. I went through ten boxes of 3 inch shells a couple of months ago and decided that they were too stout.
Remongton 870 police 12 gauge. Original stock broke along the way..
Remongton 870 police 12 gauge. Original stock broke along the way..
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W.E.G.
Member
None of my shotguns are wicked.
The home invader I shoot with it might be wicked.
The home invader I shoot with it might be wicked.
oletymer
Member
What ever you choose make sure you are totally familiar with the gun and practice untill you can use it without thinking about it's function. All the crap in the world you can hang on it means nothing without the knowledge to use it.
SleazyRider
Member
Talk about cutting to the chase! Well said!
FAS1
Member
Stock 1201FP for me. Light, fast and reliable. What more do you need?
00 Buckshot
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Winchester 1300 Defender with 7+1 capacity and 18" barrel. I put an ATN Ultra Sight red dot on top of an Aimtech saddle mount. I installed a Blackhawk recoil reducing Knoxx Stock which shortened the length of pull making it much easier to navigate through doorways. (I love the recoil reducing stock, should be mandatory on shotguns in my opinion!) I added the Knoxx Power Pack to the stock which elevates the cheek weld and adds 5 more 12 ga. rounds on board. I also use a Blackhawk single point sling attached to a Mesa Tactical sling mount. There is a Streamlight TLR 1 toward the front end of the magazine tube as well as a red laser should I ever need it.
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Mohawk
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I had a chinese knockoff 870 that I bought specificly for home defense. I'm in my late 60s(open heart survivor) and my wife is near that age and 5' nothing. We took it out to the range to train with it and ended up with our shoulders black and blue and sore after a couple rounds. My wife wouldn't shoot it after her first couple of tries. It was awkward to handle, difficult on follow up shots and felt more like a hinderance than a help. Now I'm no pussy cat when it comes to guns. I have a collection of AKs, PSL, HKs in 5.56 and 9mm so I can handle a firearm. But the 12ga was just too much for us. Especially at 3AM when you'll probably need it. We also live in an area with other houses close by and worry about over penatration.
Will Hayden of Red Jacket firearms is a friend of mine and we go back many years. He comes out to Arizona for a shoot every year and I explained my problem. He stays with us and knows the layout of our home and the proximity of our neighbors. He said, "I'll send you the perfect gun for your HD situation."
This is what he sent us and I love it as does my wife. Very little recoil to speak of, very handy to carry around and shoots like a dream every time you pull the trigger. With each pull you get 5 .367 lead balls at 1200fps, 700 foot lbs. energy. At 15 ft. it's one big hole 2.5 inches across, at 30 ft it's a spread the size of a grapefruit. The sights are perfect as you just put the front sight circle on center of mass and go. 8" barrel with a full choke. It works with all rounds flawlessly but for HD the best loads are Winchester, 3", super X, 000Buck. The 10 rd mag is perfect. We both train with it and we can put all 10 rds in an 8" Shoot n See target at 30 ft in under 7 secs. I love this gun. In all honesty, it's not much good for anything else except HD. Did I mention it's in 410?
By all means, if you're young and healthy and your wife is big and strong, get a 12 ga. I highly support the idea of using the shortest barrel you can and a full choke. It's worth the effort for the SBS tax stamp.
Will Hayden of Red Jacket firearms is a friend of mine and we go back many years. He comes out to Arizona for a shoot every year and I explained my problem. He stays with us and knows the layout of our home and the proximity of our neighbors. He said, "I'll send you the perfect gun for your HD situation."
This is what he sent us and I love it as does my wife. Very little recoil to speak of, very handy to carry around and shoots like a dream every time you pull the trigger. With each pull you get 5 .367 lead balls at 1200fps, 700 foot lbs. energy. At 15 ft. it's one big hole 2.5 inches across, at 30 ft it's a spread the size of a grapefruit. The sights are perfect as you just put the front sight circle on center of mass and go. 8" barrel with a full choke. It works with all rounds flawlessly but for HD the best loads are Winchester, 3", super X, 000Buck. The 10 rd mag is perfect. We both train with it and we can put all 10 rds in an 8" Shoot n See target at 30 ft in under 7 secs. I love this gun. In all honesty, it's not much good for anything else except HD. Did I mention it's in 410?
By all means, if you're young and healthy and your wife is big and strong, get a 12 ga. I highly support the idea of using the shortest barrel you can and a full choke. It's worth the effort for the SBS tax stamp.
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2WheelsGood
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My Benelli Supernova Tactical with a Fenix TK15 light. Couldn't be happier.
There was also a time when we pooped outdoors and it took 3 months to get across the Atlantic. You can still do those things too if you want but there are preferable methods.
I'm not saying not to use a SBS per se. The one very legit critique with using one is that should the shoot not be declared a good shoot, for whatever reason, you face a serious sentencing enhancement if you used a SBS. The same is true for my prefered defensive weapon a suppressed 5.56 rifle.
76shuvlinoff
Member
point taken and actually got a chuckle.
My point is even though it is doubtful- and hopeful- that most will ever need a HD shotgun and if they are unfortunate to find themselves in that position a reliable pump or a reliable simple semi auto will defeat most anything that didn't spring to life from a video game.
.
Mark8252
Member
I use a Taurus 410 Revolver loaded with #4 buck. Holds seven pellets. Fits easily in my night stand next to my bed. Point and pull untill no more threat.
Great when hiking in rural Colorado with first two 410 birdshot for snakes and remaining three 45 long hollow point for anything else. Short barrel for quick clearing of the holster.
Can be used for more than just home defense.
Fun on station 8 skeet shooting too (#8 shot).
No special training or jamming.
Great when hiking in rural Colorado with first two 410 birdshot for snakes and remaining three 45 long hollow point for anything else. Short barrel for quick clearing of the holster.
Can be used for more than just home defense.
Fun on station 8 skeet shooting too (#8 shot).
No special training or jamming.
Hedgemeister
Member
Remington 870, 18.5 inch. Mesa side saddle and Knoxx Specops stock(my wife has a lot shorter arms and we needed the adjustable stock). I agree that 2 3/4 is all you need and I actually use the reduced recoil version 00 buck. I have 3 kids and over penetration is a concern for me.
docnyt
Member
Mohawk,
That is an interesting setup. What exactly is it? Looks like an HK but I didn't know they made magazine fed 410s.
That is an interesting setup. What exactly is it? Looks like an HK but I didn't know they made magazine fed 410s.
451 Detonics
Member
It is a short barrel Saiga with a HK forend.
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1. Barrel length is really a non-issue, the shotgun's role in HD is a defensive weapon to be used from a place of concealment, possibly cover. The primary position will be from the side of the bed away from the door.
2. I dislike any gun mounted light, they are well proven bullet magnets. For use with the shotgun I keep one of the 1 million candle power spotlights on a stand. This is aimed at the door and will turned on if needed. It is close enough to reach but far enough a miss should miss me as well.
3. Other accessories, if you have a high cap shotgun, 8+ rounds, reloading in HD shouldn't be an issue unlike a combat competition. If you cannot control the doorway into your bedroom with 8 rounds you have a problem a shotgun isn't going to solve. If you feel the need for a sidesaddle make sure it doesn't bind the action.
A sling...useless, just something to get hung up on stuff with. In combat yes, you don't want to abandon a firearm. In the home and it's empty drop it and transition to the handgun...no need to keep a empty gun strapped to your body.
Perhaps just as important as you HD shotgun is prepping your house. In my bedroom a a remote that will turn on a very bright light in every room of the house except the bedroom with a single push of the button. This alone will cause most BG's to flee. Next I have 2 baby monitors that cover the front and back of the house. These work great to locate where the BG's might be. When that bump in the night wakes me up the first thing i do is listen, those baby monitors are very sensitive. If my power is out I look out the window, if the whole black is black I assume a power outage, if the street light outside my house is still one I would assume my power has been cut and I would immediately dial 911. After the power check I check the hard line phone in my bedroom...if that is dead again 911. Then I hit the lights and listen. Any noise and yep...911. If all is quiet and there are no problems with lights or phone I get dressed, safe the shotgun and clear the house with a handgun if I feel it necessary.
Beside my bed is my cell phone, the light remote, electric headset and there is a pair of sweat with belt loops and an inner duty belt already threaded. Take me very little time to pull on the sweat and then my duty rig with handgun and whatnot. There is also a house key on a lightstick to toss out a window if calling LEO's is required.
Now...my shotguns, one for me and one for my ex when she stays over. On my side of the bed is a Remington 1100 with 10 shot Choate tube giving me 10+1. It also have 4 slugs in the Speedfeed II stock.
On her side of the bed is a HK/Benelli 121M
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