Home defense

[2WheelsGood]

I dislike any gun mounted light, they are well proven bullet magnets.

Nothing says you HAVE to turn it on. Some situations it's good to have it off, some it's good to have it on.

For use with the shotgun I keep one of the 1 million candle power spotlights on a stand. This is aimed at the door and will turned on if needed. It is close enough to reach but far enough a miss should miss me as well.

Useless if you need to leave the room.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I dont have pics on my work computer, but my HD shotgun started it's life as a Maverick 88. Added an ATI pistol grip and 6-point stock, Mossberg500AT tri-rail fore end with Moss500 action rails. I slapped on an 18.5" Mossberg barrel equipped with heat shield + ghost ring sights. Tactical light mounted on the tri-rail fore end. Looks 'wicked' and would get the job done. lLoaded with alternating slugs and 00 buckshot.

 

[Mohawk]

Concerning my earlier post on HD shotguns, I've recieved some PMs expressing interest and inquiring more info on my .410. All things being equal, I agree with the general consensus that a 12ga is probably the very best stand alone HD weapon you can use, with major qualifiers. Sure if you're in great physical shape and so is your significant other, then find a 12ga that you're both comfortable with and practice, practice, practice. In HD you only have one chance and it's usually at 3AM. Even with 12ga I highly recommend the shortest barrel you can get. A tax stamp is money and time well spent. That being said, there are many of us who are "getting up in age" and are not in the best physical shape but are highly concerned about HD due to the fact that we are perceived as "easy prey" by many who are looking for a score. I know in Arizona, there are groups of two or three who will kick in your door and you're lucky to have your life after all is said and done if you're not prepared to meet the threat.

When I first got the 870 clone with 18.5" barrel I did some dry run maneuvers through the house and found it awkward around corners and pointing it. My wife found it totally unmanageable. In an actual situation I came to the conclusion she would get one, poorly placed round off before she would be overpowered. I also felt that I would most likely spray and pray just shooting up the house.

Will Hayden of Redjacket Firearms and I had many conversations concerning this subject and he felt that many HD proponents are "missing the boat" when it comes to the .410 shotgun. Especially when HD concerned Senior citizens. Some of the parameters for us are as follows

Most of us can't see very well and need glasses
Many of us are disabled or frail.
Many of us live in dense communities composed of other seniors
Many of us live in smaller homes as we sold the big house long ago for various reasons.
The HD choice must be accessable and useable to our companion
The HD weapon should be highly portable yet have a very high rate of firepower as reloading will probably not be possible or necessary with the right weapon.

The 410 that Will built for me was a prototype he put together knowing that I had an MP5 clone and with his seer pac I could handle it well in full auto. So we went from there.
The Saiga 410 that I posted is roughly the same weight as a fully loaded MP5 with 30rd mag in 9MM luger. Comparing the F/A MP5 with the modified Saiga410 look alike this is what we found using Shoot N See 8" targets at 15 feet and 30 feet respectively.

With an MP5 in Full auto getting 5 rd bursts, I got 6 pulls of the trigger and 16rds hit the target out of 30 at 15 ft. Time was over 8 seconds to empty the mag with AIMED fire. Most time spent in recovery of aim point. At 30 Feet I got 9 rds in the target and it took 12 secs most of it recovery time for aimpoint.

With the 410 Saiga shotgun I have posted, using Winchester SuperX, 3", 000Buck I get 5 lead balls nearly the same size as 9mm with each pull of the trigger and I get 11 pulls of the trigger for a total of 55 peices of lead down range. The minimal recoil is straight back rather than up and out and target reaquasition was much faster than the FA, MP5.
At 15 feet I put 44 pellets in the 8" target in 6.5 sec and at 30 ft I put all 11 rds on the target in under 8 sec although the grouping was closer to 1 ft. rather than 8". My wive was a little slower but just as accurate. You can use 15rd mags for more firepower but I found these awkward and they unbalanced the weapon. Even with the stock 4rd mag you still get 25 peices of lead down the pipe(4+1) which is very nice. The HK sight system is very good for seniors with eye problems as you just put the front sight circle on center mass and shoot and recoil is acceptabe even for us who take blood thinners and bruse easily.

The image I posted is the ultimate deluxe version of a converted Saiga 410 shotgun and runs about 1200 to 1500 dollars from RedJacket but you can pick up a Saiga shotgun for 300 or so at gun shows and some dealers as they are not a very popular caliber among shotgun owners. They usually come with a 18.5" barrel and a 4 rd mag and they are very dependable in function and cycle. They become a whole different, efficient weapon when you cut the barrel down as short as you can, add a full choke and add a 10 or 15 rd mag to them. If you just got a stock Saiga and cut and rethread the barrel you would have a very good HD weapon for under 600.00. which includes the price of the tax stamp.

I'm trying to get Will to devote an episode of his TV show addressing the needs of HD for seniors with the Saiga 410 as an alternative. After shooting the Taurus Judge, I didn't care for it at all as it's not very controlable nor accurate with any followup. JMHO

Sorry for the long winded, extended post but I think HD for seniors has different parameters than the average application and should be recognized. Thanks for reading.

 

[451 Detonics]

For use with the shotgun I keep one of the 1 million candle power spotlights on a stand. This is aimed at the door and will turned on if needed. It is close enough to reach but far enough a miss should miss me as well.

Useless if you need to leave the room.

If I leave the room it won't be needed as the house will be brightly lit. If the power is off and my lights don't come on I will let the local PD clear the house. If the entire block is no power and I decide to clear the house myself the shotgun will stay in the bedroom, I will use my Surefire held clear of my body and a handgun so the light on the shotgun would be useless at any rate.

Clearing a house with a long gun just is a poor way of doing it, far too easy to either get it snatched or pinned between you and a BG with the muzzle in your face or pointed at your feet.

 

[USAF_Vet]

My wife is a very light sleeper and suffers from insomnia, and will more often than not leave the bedroom in the middle of the night and sleep on the couch. It was with this in mind that I considered trading my HD shotgun for a 9mm carbine. If a BG does enter the house, my wife on the living room couch would be a prime target so a scatter gun in my hands would be as deadly to her as it would be to the BG. Some of the good things about the 9mm is increased round capacity (10 over 5), it is lighter and shorter overall compared to the shotgun. I can't think about any drawbacks other than stopping power, but then the average home invader doesn't have body armor. Any real drawbacks in switching to the 9mm carbine and putting the ole 12ga in the gun cabinet?

 

[spyderdude]

I chose the Mossberg 590 Special Purpose Persuader 12 gauge. I have a bayonet coming in the mail, no real purpose for it other than poking holes in watermelons and having them blow up in my face when I pull the trigger!

 

[Girodin]

1. Barrel length is really a non-issue, the shotgun's role in HD is a defensive weapon to be used from a place of concealment, possibly cover. The primary position will be from the side of the bed away from the door.

Maybe maybe not. One cannot presume that everyone else's circumstances are the same as their own. Whereas one person may be able to hole up in a bedroom behind a piece of heavy furniture, another may need to go down the hall or even to another level of their home to secure children or other members of the family. Movement may be required. In such an instance there may be better choices than a shotgun but that is a different discussion. A shorter barrel length might also be an issue in terms of weigh/balance for a particular user. Lastly taken from your later in you post, "If all is quiet and there are no problems with lights or phone I get dressed, safe the shotgun and clear the house with a handgun if I feel it necessary." What if one didn't also have a handgun and had to preform that task with their shotgun?

2. I dislike any gun mounted light, they are well proven bullet magnets.

Again knowing how to use a light is important. Pat Rogers, Clint smith, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, and other notably instructors go for weapon mounted lights.

Further many of the techniques I've seen employed with shotgun, particularly a pump would be substantially similar to having a weapon mounted light, the main difference is they are just more difficult to employee and require that one grab a gun and a light.

3. Other accessories, if you have a high cap shotgun, 8+ rounds, reloading in HD shouldn't be an issue unlike a combat competition. If you cannot control the doorway into your bedroom with 8 rounds you have a problem a shotgun isn't going to solve. If you feel the need for a sidesaddle make sure it doesn't bind the action.

Again this assumes that one can simply stay in their own bedroom watching the door. Once again it is not true for everyone. That is not the case for a lot of people. I would still agree one most likely wont need more rounds, but I'd rather have them than not. Things don't always go just how they should and 8 rounds is not a whole lot. Putting 4-6 more on the gun is cheap insurance against what is an outside event, particularly so considered vis a vis the effort and expense of getting an shotgun in the first place, seeking training, practicing and becoming proficient in its use. Having a HD shotgun is preparing for an unlikely event, carry 6 more rounds is hardly an outlandish leap in that preparation. Having it poses no real drawbacks either. You'll note of course that I put it on my nice to have list not my essential equipment list. I also like a two shell holder in front of the ejection port for very fast emergency reloads, again not needed but its how I'm used to running my gun and I'd just as soon have it as not. What is the drawback over not having it (other than initial purchase price which really isn't a great concern for me)? For me they are value added accessories, even if not crucial.

 

[Girodin]

They [saiga shotguns] usually come with a 18.5" barrel

Not that it is a huge difference but the shorter of the factory saiga .410 offerings is a 19" barrel and the longer option is a 21.5"

If you just got a stock Saiga and cut and rethread the barrel you would have a very good HD weapon for under 600.00. which includes the price of the tax stamp.

An otherwise stock gun with a cut down barrel would have two issues.

First, and this this the big one, it may or may not run reliably if you don't have a knowledgeable smith modify the gas system. People pay Will and Tony (from Tromix) a lot for SBS saigas for a reason.

Second, one should be aware that the would be limited to only five round magazines in that configuration. One could easily remedy that with easy additions, particularly compared against the task of cutting it down to begin with).

That .410 is a neat gun, and coming from Red Jacket you know it is a quality weapon.

BG. Some of the good things about the 9mm is increased round capacity (10 over 5), it is lighter and shorter overall compared to the shotgun.

Are you limited by local laws to 10 rounds? Why not go with a carbine with substantially more capacity?

Any real drawbacks in switching to the 9mm carbine and putting the ole 12ga in the gun cabinet?

I think you identified the biggest disadvantage, the relative power of each. Over penetration may be more of a concern with the carbine.

 

[451 Detonics]

Whereas one person may be able to hole up in a bedroom behind a piece of heavy furniture, another may need to go down the hall or even to another level of their home to secure children or other members of the family. Movement may be required.

Which is why a handgun is more essential than a long gun...moving through a house with a long gun is a good way to lose. I know we see military and police doing it but they also have back-up behind them. Given the choice between one or the other the handgun would be the better choice.

Again knowing how to use a light is important. Pat Rogers, Clint smith, Chris Costa, Travis Haley, and other notably instructors go for weapon mounted lights.

Mas Ayoob, Farnham, Clint Smith (I know you listed him as well) and many other say it is a bullet magnet and should be avoided if possible.

Preparation is as or more important than weapon selection. You should have a clear, workable plan in place. When I had kids at home my plan included getting them ionto the safe room as the number one priority. For me that meant placing myself between myself and the rest of the family then retreating to the safe room after everyone else was in there. You have to have a way to gather intel...thus the baby monitors I use. I have seriously considered adding a couple wireless cameras and monitor to the system. Your job is keeping your family alive, not protecting your plasma. If you have family living with you they come first and you never leave them alone until you are very sure the house is empty.

Just owning a shotgun is not a plan.

 

[Girodin]

Mas Ayoob, Farnham, Clint Smith (I know you listed him as well) and many other say it is a bullet magnet and should be avoided if possible.

Are they talking about handguns or long guns?

Clint Smith (I know you listed him as well)

You need only watch his videos to see that a bunch of those guns have lights on them. I've included a link of Mr. Smith discussing shotguns. He shows his 870. Guess what is on it? A light. A TLR from the looks of it. He calls it ". . .a light mounted system that works very well." As an aside guess what else is on it? A side saddle (and a speed feed stock).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdW2TAfN3mQ

These are interesting pics chosen for Mr. Awerbucks books. Tell me if you notice anything.

View attachment 532090

View attachment 532091

Gabe Suarez's shotgun

Haley

View attachment 532092

Costa

View attachment 532093

If we include carbines we will see the same people and many more running weapon mounted lights as well.

Please explain the most viable technique that allows one to use, manipulate and fire a pump shotgun or even an auto loader and simultaneously use a light in a manner that wont create the bullet magnet effect that you refer to.


Again we might argue that there are better HD weapons than a shotgun but that is a different discussion. The discussion at hand is that of how a shotgun that is going to be used for HD should be set up.

 

[1stmarine]

I will give them my mother-in-law and then run for cover. lol.

 

[Girodin]

Marine1, what gas puck is in that saiga 12 pictured there?

 

[stnjohnson]

Here's mine. I'm looking for a light for it this weekend, something with a pressure switch that will mount to that rail on the forend. My strategy (wife, no kids, bedroom on second story) is to step outside my bedroom door and cover the stairs as my wife dials 911. As someone decides to come up the stairs they'll get hit with a flash of led light in the eyes long enough for me to decide whether they're a threat or not. At that point they can run out the door, wait for the cops, or test their ability to avoid shotgun pellets in the stair hallway.

Until I get the light though I'm afraid my shotgun is a fallback. I have a pistol with a flashlight next to it for now. Shooting blind in the dark or shooting a shotgun with one hand and the light in the other both seem like bad ideas to me.

This set-up cost me around $350, but you can get them with the adjustable stock and all for around $330 in my neck of the woods. It's a Mossberg 500 with an 18.5" barrel 5+1 capacity. The light will cost more of course.

 

[1stmarine]

Girodin,
I have not tried it yet but it is a self regulated one that I got online. It is more expensive but it is supposed to work nicer. Lets see how well selfadjusts the pressure. I will try it soon so I can let you know. I don't even know the brand but I can find out if you want. I know they are US made something that makes me very happy always.

Cheers,
E.

 

[CherenkovBlue]

I like to roll Jurassic park style

 

[Girodin]

Girodin,
I have not tried it yet but it is a self regulated one that I got online. It is more expensive but it is supposed to work nicer.

You've misunderstood my question. I did not ask what plug. Rather I asked what puck, the little metal part that moves and is a countable part for 922r considerations. I was insinuating that surely that is your 4th compliance part to go along with that sure fire mag. Or perhaps the mag has a dowel in it limiting it to 5 rounds and is just for looks. Surely you would not post a picture of a gun that you arguably "assembled" in violation of federal law. BTW yes I know there is are differing opinions offered by the ATF as to whether inserting a mag is assembling. I also know those letters do not carry the force of law and thus do not mean that enforcement couldn't be brought. Anyways back to HD shotgun discussion

 

[1stmarine]

Sorry I misread...

Surely you would not post a picture of a gun that you arguably "assembled" in violation of federal law

There is no special pug. There is no need for it. The system is fully compliant with 922r with plenty of US made parts including G2 trigger group.
But I know what you mean I though I had posted the picture after conversion and I posted a picture before conversion with all the parts scattered.
I will look for the right picture and post it.

Cheers,
E.

 

[tactikel]

IMHO you have to positively identify an intruder before any action is taken- a light is a must (you may not need it- but killling an unarmed teenage druggie will send you to prison in Ill.). Whatever you settle on be sure to shoot it- alot! at least 200 rounds before you even think about using it for SD/HD. Be able to load it, and clear a jam in complete darkness. good luck.