home defense

[skt239]

With all due respect, choosing a knife or baseball bat over any firearm is not a well thought out statement. If you can't stop your attacker putting distance between you and them is the next best thing. Any firearm will do that better than a bat or knife. I'm willing to bet my next pay check that faced with a life threatening attack and given the option of a .25 or knife/bat, each and every person on this forum would go for the gun.

When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.

 

[JEB]

While a .22lr would also be inadequate they would be better than the far worse .25

i hear this a lot. i am not dissagreeing by any means, but i am curious as to just what exactly it its that makes the .25 worse than the .22?

 

[David E]

i hear this a lot. i am not dissagreeing by any means, but i am curious as to just what exactly it its that makes the .25 worse than the .22?

From the same length barrel, say, 2.5", the .25 wins, but not by much. But add to that the more reliable centerfire primer and a cartridge case that won't rim-lock, the .25 has even more going for it.

Most people saying the .22 LR is better are comparing a long barreled .22 (sometimes even a rifle) to a micro compact .25

 

[mljdeckard]

Shouldn't you be bullying some goats trying to cross a bridge somewhere?

Let's assume for the moment that the question is sincere. If I am advising a person whom I actually care whether or not they live or die, I will not let them use a .25 for defense in any situation. The only thing worse than a .25 would be a .25 that is rimfire. Eat some mac and cheese, stall the cable bill, find a used .38 or G-19. These rounds are MUCH more likely to penetrate a human target deeply enough to stop them, and will displace about twice as much tissue.

Why is a .25 worse than a .22? First of all, the ballistics of the round are as bad as it gets. low velocity, fired from very short barrels. I have personally seen a welt on someone who was hit with a .25 in their vehicle. When you shoot someone with a defensive round, you don't want them to react by saying; "OW That HURT!!" Pretty much all .25s are put in the worst-made, lowest-capicity, cheapest guns you can buy. My wife is a rookie shooter, and she could dump 15 stingers from my Ciener conversion .22 to center of mass in a few seconds.

Using a handgun for self-defense is a bad choice to begin with. Using a Raven .25 is like buying a bargain parachute that someone died in. If you have to use a handgun in the middle of the night, you don't want the absolute worst one available.

 

[Retcop]

I have a Raven 25 Cal. Semi automatic. It holds 1 in chamber and 7 in clip. How much protection can I expect with it? ?

Not very much against an armed intruder. Upgrade to a larger caliber ASAP

 

[fjlee]

If I did use a Raven, it wouldn't be a .25

If I did use a .25, it wouldn't be a Raven.


FjLee

 

[SimplyChad]

John browning invented the 25 acp so there has to be some use for it. I think that is to be a pocket pistol aginst strong arm robberies and the such. Made to give several rounds to the belly and break away. If it was all I have i would practice my butt off with it.
With that said there are much better options in the used barrel of guns. A rossi/tuar
us 38 can be found new for under 250 bucks a sigma in 40 or 9 mil about the same. Are they the best weapons out there? No but they are a sight better then the .25 . Dunce moment the tried and true S&W model 10 can also be had for that. Along with several C&R firearms.
http://www.jgsales.com/hi-point-jcp-40s-w-black-pistol,-new-by-hi-point-p-5840.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-83-czech-...rall-good-to-very-good-condition.-p-5703.html
http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-...ery-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-6779.html
http://www.jgsales.com/russian-1895....62-nagant-caliber,-with-holster.-p-1059.html The cheapest by far. And a 32 H&R mag aint nothing to sneeze at.
http://www.jgsales.com/smith-wesson...,-good-to-very-good-condition-s-w-p-6678.html
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/654_910/gunbar


Shop around save up your money and get something better.

 

[SabbathWolf]

With all due respect, choosing a knife or baseball bat over any firearm is not a well thought out statement. If you can't stop your attacker putting distance between you and them is the next best thing. Any firearm will do that better than a bat or knife. I'm willing to bet my next pay check that faced with a life threatening attack and given the option of a .25 or knife/bat, each and every person on this forum would go for the gun.

When the chips are down, I hope my training kicks in and not my ammo biased/preferences.

Sorry but ...no.
I'd rather rush my attacker with a knife in your scenario here.
A bat is OK I guess, but I'm pretty good with knives.

 

[memphismark]

99% of the time, crimes are deterred by just showing a firearm/never shooting it.

I don't know where you got that statistic, but it's not even close to accurate with all due respect. memphismark

 

[memphismark]

For CalCats: You're goin' to get a lot of disappointing comments about your pea shooter choice. A solid shot to the heart is about the best you could realisticly hope for. It really is not going to be much of a personal defense weapon to be sure. Better than nothing? I guess so. But a nice, dirt cheap 410 shotgun would be much better. You sound like you may be a novice, and I commend you on looking to others for some help. You'll have to dicipher what is good advice and 'armchair' quarterbacking when your on a forum like this. I've already read a few claims that were slightly embellished, and couple of crime statistics that are just plain false, not the least of which was the so called 'fact' that 99% for of all potential crimes are thwarted just by the mere brandishing of a weapon in the direction of a would-be attacker! That's insane. Anyway, Taurus makes a nice pistol called The Judge, which is a comfortable shooting revolver that shoots a .410 shotgun shell. It's kick is very easy to control, and one model shoots both the .410 shell and I believe it's 45 colt. You'll have to double check me on that at TaurusUSA.com. Anyway, there are a miriad of other options if your budget is an issue. Many gunstores have used pistols, rifles and shotguns. I myself have a .22 rifle for squirrels and rabbits that have a bad habit of chewing up my garden on my weekend 5 acre property. It works fine for that, but I'm pretty sure that it won't be Rocky Racoon or Bug's Bunny thats going to be after your ass. I have a pimped out 'tactical' Mossberg 12 gauge. Taurus 40 S&W. Ruger LC9 and others for that most wiley of all garden criminals, the 2 legged homosapien, also known as the common a-hole! Good luck friend. Just a thought. memphismark

 

[Lawdawg45]

I could take a cardboard box, pillow and duct tape and call it a car seat for my grandchild, but why be addicted to sub-mediocrity with something important as a life? Take the Raven to a Pawn Shop and use the $50 to buy ammo for a sensible choice!

LD

 

[Ranger30-06]

John browning invented the 25 acp so there has to be some use for it. I think that is to be a pocket pistol aginst strong arm robberies and the such. Made to give several rounds to the belly and break away.

Yes he did, but he also designed the caliber back in a time where the gunshot survival rate was next to 0%, so you could carry one of these calibers because chances were, whoever you shot was going to die. There was also a huge mental effect to the person shot, because they knew they wouldn't survive and had no will to live.

Ever since the major medical revolutions of the 80's and 90's, gunshots have had a rising survival rate, along with our culture that now believes that any problem can be fixed simply by showing up at the hospital. (Ask my mom; people thing the hospital is the fountain of youth...)

+1 on the CZ82 though, or even a Makarov. I have a .380 makarov that I would trust my life to, and remember, the Russians used the 9x18 Makarovs for what, 60 years? Doesn't seem to have been a problem for them! Although now they're using 9mm that's supercharged well past .357 Mag levels...

 

[Kiln]

The Raven is fine, just make sure it works. Quality varies between guns but for the most part they're alright pistols...the most common issues are magazine related. It actually got some decent/good reviews back in the 80's before the anti-gun crowd made them the devil for being cheap...unfortunately alot of people still repeat the second hand BS about guns that are affordable.

I just find it funny that until a few years ago people just knew that Hi Points frequently flew apart because of their zamak construction and jammed all the time, now they're considered a decent gun for the money since people have actually tried them and stopped retelling the same tired stories. Same goes for Raven pistols, alot of their bad rep was earned by friend of a friend stories that were started during a very anti gun era in which cheap guns were demonized so that poor people wouldn't buy them.

The .25acp, while definately at the bottom of the totem pole, has killed a lot of people and at one point the Raven was one of the most frequently used guns in homicides.

While I'm sure there are instances of the .25acp sliding off of human skulls, I have serious doubts that it happens nearly as often as people online seem to have heard from their uncle john who knew a police officer who once saw a guy shoot himself in the face and walk to the hospital afterwards because he felt fine.

People who advocate the .22lr over the .25acp are simply misinformed and often quote the stats on a box of .22 ammo without taking into account the barrel lengths used when providing said stats. The .22lr is not superior to the .25acp. The .25acp penetrates better, has reliable ignition, and feeds better in most compacts. The biggest downside to .25acp is the price of ammunition.

My advice to you is to keep the Raven handy and start saving up for something better. Despite the incredibly stupid advice that some will give you, a knife or bat is not a better option than your Raven. Still though for about $150 or so you can pick up a military surplus pistol or a Hi Point and will be much better off.

 

[jad0110]

I'd rather have a big knife or bat than a 25 honestly. We have a good family friend that is the chief of police in a city nearby and he's told me so many stories over the years. One that always sticks out is when he was called to a scene of a shooting. There was a group of guys playing poker and drinking, two guys ended up arguing for whatever reason and the one shot the other guy point blank in the forehead from across a poker table and when our cop friend arrived the guy who was shot was kicking the other guts butt and when they separated them the guy still had the bullet stuck in his forehead! It BARELY penetrated from ~4 feet away. I'd get a 22LR long before I even thought of a 25acp.

Emphasis added.

The problem here may not have been the caliber. I have heard of at least two cases of .357 Magnum and at least one example of .45 ACP doing the same basic thing. In those cases, the rounds did not penetrate but instead bounced off. The forehead area of the human skull is not only very hard, it is also angle in such a manner that bullets often do just bounce off. Same can be said for putting down injured animals. Shooting them in the forehead is fine if you don't mind it not working, and you like the idea of lead shrapnel getting stuck in your shins . I suppose that may be one reason why many instructors recommend that head shots be aimed at the "T Zone" - no higher than a line running horizontally through the eyes with a another running straight down the nose to the neck.

As for the OP...

Assuming funds are tight right now and you are not yet able to upgrade, take the Raven out to a range to verify that it even works. Sometimes they don't. If you are new to shooting, don't be afraid to ask the staff for help. Assuming it functions reliably, I'd have no qualms about relying on it until I could save up for something better. Your mindset will be your most important tool anyway, God forbid the crap ever hits the fan. It is the indian, not the arrow as they say.

Granted, I have more potent options for home protection. If I were in your position, I would set a goal to replace the Raven at some point. For home protection, a used pump shotgun in 12 or 20 gauge are excellent values (often under $300, sometimes under $200), as just one example.

 

[BSA1]

Fellas you are being baited. This is the O.P.'s first post and it is about use of mousegun for home defense.

 

[skt239]

I stand by my assumption. In a life or death situation, we are all instinctually reaching for the .25 raven.

 

[mljdeckard]

Kiln, it doesn't matter if it's better than a .22 if the .22 you are using makes it a lot easier to deliver a LOT more hits. .25s are small, low-capacity guns to begin with. My Ciener conversion holds 16. How many does a Raven hold, 6? The raven is difficult to grip and has a very small sight radius. You can do a LOT more damage with that conversion.

And more still with a shotgun loaded with #4 or OO.

 

[David E]

How much did your base gun cost? How much more was the Ciener?

It's not apples to apples.

I agree we've been baited. Allowed an opportunity to share some thoughts, tho

And I want to know what pawn shop would give $50 for a used Raven!

 

[Certaindeaf]

Vasili Blokhin killed 7000 people with a .25 acp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasili_Blokhin

I've shot a Raven 25 quite a bit in the past and it was very accurate and reliable.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Jeff Cooper talked somewhat often about 22 LR. He didn't advocate it. If you were going to use it, he said you need to practice a lot at targets the size of an eyeball as that was your best chance. Personally I'd go with a major caliber.

 

[Robert]

Vasili Blokhin killed 7000 people with a .25 acp.

Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.

I understand.

 

[MachIVshooter]

As far as home defense you would be hard pressed to find a better close range gun than either the Smith&Wesson Governor or Taurus Judge With .410 Buckshot.

No, you wouldn't. If one was going to use either of those for HD, .45 Colt loads would be a much better choice. Buckshot has abysmal performance from those guns.

Personally, I'd rather have a typical double-column 9mm than a Governor/Judge for almost any purpose, save dealing with venomous snakes.

 

[David E]

The Judge and Governor have their place....but it ain't in my nightstand drawer for defense.

 

[Kiln]

Shooting handcuffed Polish Officers in the head at point blank range is not really the same thing as an HD situation.

Yeah but it kind of shows that half of the "I saw somebody get shot in the face with the .25 one a foot away and it just bounced off" comments that fill these threads are probably just more second hand bullcrap.

I'm also aware that it is possible the op is just trolling. There is also a chance that it was a legitimate question though. I've known alot of people who used small caliber mouse guns for defense that thought they were well armed.