Home Invasion: my friend's relative.

[SemperFi83]

Man, you aren't going to have time to "decide" anything or ask for ID, or ascertain good guy from bad guy...You will react the way you will react regardless of what letters are (or aren't) on the front or back of the guys' shirts.

You'll be lucky to (a) awake and become sufficiently alert in time, or (b) grab a weapon if it isn't already ON you.

I respectfully submit that then you might have 1-1.5 seconds to REACT. For some of us the reaction will be to open the ball. For others it won't be.

edited for poor typing skills...I guess I missed that class

 

[David N]

Where did this crime happen?

Abaddon-

I'd love to know where this crime happened.

THANKS!

 

[abaddon]

Tacoma

 

[igor]

Just a detail...

... that keeps coming up. I live in a cold country where all structures such as walls, doors themselves and their frames are made a little more solidly than what I've seen in the US. That alone helps little but the fact that all exterior doors always open outwards makes a true difference. Combine that with a decent dead-bolt lock, studded hinges and a rather feeble exterior handle that'll break right off if pulled with considerable force and the door just can't be forced open without detcord.

Active exterior lighting, thorny obstacles around windows with anti-break film or partial, decorative bars and noisy animals round it up nicely, especially if there's an alarm system with a cellular connection to a central station with a speedy response process in place.

Can someone point me towards an explanation of why exterior doors are installed backwards there? I wonder about this every time I see a door kicked in on TV... never on domestic shows, obviously.

 

[Parallax]

I live in Florida and my front door opens out, but this is the only house I've ever lived in with such a door.

 

[justashooter]

So I call BS. It'd be nice if you gave some details about how exactly they managed to plant the evidence.

during a particularly nasty divorce, my first wife, who'd already lost custody of our children to me in a court, arranged such a thing.

she was a police person, and so was the low life she ran with. both were caught, and thrown out. i tried to be nice about the kids, but she had moved to a different school district and didn't have her priorities strait...the guy lost his kids, too.

one night i came home to find the house tossed (locks had long been changed, and a custody hearing was scheduled for the next day in her appeal), and a few things broken. nothing was missing, but there was a small plastic bag of white powder in the room with the broken window, in a cabinet that had not been open before i went out.

you would have to have experienced the 4 years of hell i went thru to understand, but i believe it was their intent that i call the cops and that the cops (yes, they both knew locals) would "find" some coke in my house. i guess that i was expected to be in lock-up when i walked into the hearing room the next morning. the "perps" were both visibly surprised and dissapointed.

this is not an isolated incident. in a 2 year stretch this pair appeared as "victims" in district or common pleas court in charges fabricated against me and the guy's wife, and another 2 people at least 11 times that i know of.

do the math.

thankfully, i was able to close the door without keeping the kids from her, and she ran into enuf brick walls to come back with her tail between her legs. i set her up in a nice place, and the kids are with her most of the time now. this restoration of the prodigal wife was only possible because she showed me some humility and remorse, which i believe was genuine.

nobody tries to kill themselves twice without a little remorse. finding her spasming on the floor of her post second marraige apartment and watching her carried out on a board foaming at the mouth was enough to engender a little compassion. today, she is a beautifully restored woman, has regained her integrity, and has sworn off crooked dicks...

life is new for her, good for my kids, and not so bad for me.

so you see, cops with the wrong motivation are just as bad as anybody else, but are better trained to act out the motivation in ways that deny responsibility and use other people as pawns. sad, but true.

 

[abaddon]

Justashooter

Yeah, that pretty much sucks. It goes to show that cops sometimes do plant evidence. But this was obviously premeditated. It would be a lot easier for them to plant evidence if it was premeditated. What I was trying to say was that if there's an accidental no-knock at a person's house they won't be able to plant evidence - which is the situation we are talking about here. But after a situation like that I can understand why you would distrust cops.

Igor:
Doors that open outwards would certainly be a lot more secure. The only thing I can think of is that contractors got in the habit of doing this at a time when all the hinges were easy to pop off. Now they have hinges that can't be disassembled without the door being open, so it would be better to make doors that open outwards.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Only thing I don't like about outward-opening doors is that (assuming the hinges are tamper-resistant/proof) if you open it up it would be a lot easier for someone on the other side to jerk it open on you than it would be for them to try and push through the door and you, especially if your foot is at the bottom blocking the door's rearward movement.

Then again, they'd have to move to the rear, then reverse direction to head forward into the house which could give you enough of a time advantage to draw-front sight-press-repeat as needed.

 

[igor]

Yammy, one can alleviate such problems via simple intercom systems to avoid opening the door at all. Or a sturdy safety chain that allows it to open an inch wide - and as said, the exterior handle must be... um... puny. How about that?

 

[jobu07]

There was a group of guys doing this in Syracuse, NY back around Christmas time. They would go around to apartment buildings and just pick one apt. at random, bust down the door, and go in with the regular MO (tie everyone up etc.). These guys had jackets that said police, flashlights, handguns, hand cuffs and such. Once everyone was incapacitated they proceded to steal all the christmas presents in the home and any valubles they could find. It's a tough situation for someone to be in. Especially if you aren't prepared/expecting it. I guess, like someone mentioned before, if you can see the people (lights on, not dark) and you see real police gear such as shields and sub guns, they are probably the real deal. If four punks in navy blue jackets with saturday night specials come in, they probably are less likely to be legit. No one can be totally ready 100% of the time. Best bet I think is to have a ccw on your person at all times, especially in your home.

 

[epijunkie67]

One thing I keep hearing is "When I see that first guy...."
Why wait that long? I usually have a firearm on or near me. If I'm awake and I hear someone kicking in my door why not put a round through the ceiling? I live in a single floor house so no problems with anyone above me.

If the kickers are bad guys they will most likely run at the sound of gunfire.

And if they are cops? I'm not LE but would a no knock team continue to enter if they encountered gunfire before even getting in the door? Seems it would be better to fall back since they've lost their tactical advantage and try negotiation then.

Of course if it's 3am and I'm asleep then this MIGHT not be an option. But if I got a round off before they could get down the hallway then it still might work. I can't imagine any LE proceeding down a hallway when they know they have an armed subject at the end of it in an unfamiliar room and would have to pass through the funnel of death to get to them. Much better to fall back and secure the rest of the building, maintain position and negotiate. Or flash-bang me, which I doubt most criminals would have.

What do you think? Good? Bad?

 

[justashooter]

I'm not LE but would a no knock team continue to enter if they encountered gunfire before even getting in the door?

yes, they would push until you were dead. remember, they are wearing plated kevlar, and have trained with simunitions to take hits and keep shooting until the target is dead. by shooting back you give them the rationale to do this. their goal is resolution by domination, at any cost.

 

[motoman]

yes, they would push until you were dead. remember, they are wearing plated kevlar, and have trained with simunitions to take hits and keep shooting until the target is dead. by shooting back you give them the rationale to do this. their goal is resolution by domination, at any cost

That might be what they are trained to do, but experience’s like Waco and Ruby Ridge show what really happens when they encounter armed resistance.

 

[abaddon]

I don't know about Waco, but when the agents came under fire on Ruby Ridge it was during a recon investigation, not an offensive attack. There's a very different mindset involved and you'd expect very different reactions to both. So I agree with Justashooter - they'd push through anyway because they came into the situation almost expecting resistance.

 

[moa]

At Waco 75 BATF agents conducted a raid. They knocked first, the door was opened, and then slammed in their faces. Firefight followed, four ATF agents killed and about 20 wounded.

In Baltimore a couple years ago, a no-knock was executed by the city police. Result was four LEOs where shot five times and went to the hospital. No indictment of the shooter. LEOs failed to follow policy.

 

[DavidK76]

I read all of these and John is the only one that resembles my opinion, I am in 100% complete agreement with john.

Dying honorable is protecting my family or myself. I dont care if they are police, coming into my house at 3 in the morning, is going to result in consequences.

 

[benEzra]

Why wait that long? I usually have a firearm on or near me. If I'm awake and I hear someone kicking in my door why not put a round through the ceiling? I live in a single floor house so no problems with anyone above me.

Not sure if this is a good idea.

(1) Auditory threshold shift will dramatically reduce your hearing for several minutes. You have just lost the ability to track the hypothetical invaders through your house. Maybe they'll go away, but if they don't you are in a lot worse position than you were to start with.

(2) You have just announced your location to the hypothetical invaders. Maybe they'll go away, but if they don't you are in a lot worse position than you were to start with.

 

[Rotorflyr]

JohnKSa,
I see I understand your point about wanting to protect your family but I disagree with your logic on some of your points. If you can wait a sec or so and actually identify the target as truly hostile and not LEO's, why not do it?
I know you say it could jepordize your family, however bullets flying in all directions can and jepordize them as well. Unless your kids sleep in the same room as you and your wife, you need to get to them to be able to protect them, and if you have time to do that, then you should have time to identify a group of police officers from a buch of slime bags.
A group of LEO's are going to react different then a buch of slime bags who bust down your door, but it doesn't mean they are better shots. Bullets flying everywhere may be as likely to hit a family member as they are you.
Your actions could also injure or kill family members. In the sec or so it MAY take to identify the target as LEO's, you can save your family a lot of heart ache.
I do realize that the layout of your home may preclude you from eaisly identifying LEO's, but if set up right, your field of view should give you the ability to see what/who your shooting at. Even in no-knock warrent situation there will be Police vehicles and regular uniformed officers on scene. If you are in a 2 story home, you should have plenty of time to peek out the window and see what's out there.

Im not saying that you should give away all tactical advantage, but before you pull the trigger, make sure you know what your shooting at.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you can wait a sec or so and actually identify the target as truly hostile and not LEO's, why not do it?

Because: 1) I can't wait a "sec or so"--that would be more than enough to get shot. 2) There's no need to ID the targets. Their own actions have already identified them as home invaders.

bullets flying in all directions can and jepordize them as well

Lots worse than getting hit by a bullet could happen if I can't repel a home invasion successfully--remember, something like 3/4 of people shot with a handgun survive. There are lots of things that can happen that a person never recovers from--and I'm not talking about dying.

there will be Police vehicles and regular uniformed officers on scene. If you are in a 2 story home, you should have plenty of time to peek out the window and see what's out there.

Besides the fact that my house isn't going to grow a second story anytime soon, are you really suggesting that I peek out the window while a group of men kick down my door and enter my home? "Excuse me gentlemen! On the off chance that you are police officers, could you not shoot me for awhile nor otherwise damage my abode nor molest my lovely wife whilst I look out the window and see if there are patrol cars out front? Thank you so much. Alas, I see that there are no marked police cars out front. I therefore deduce you are not friendly policeman--you must be dastardly home invaders."

Come on...

 

[mountainclmbr]

In Denver, for the last 7 years, the innocent people at the wrong address have always died in No-Knocks as far as I can tell.