Home Invasions--What if you lose?

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StorkPatrol

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Ok, so last week a buddy of mine was the victim of a violent home invasion robbery. I'm not going to talk details because 1) I don't know all the details and 2) I respect the dude's privacy. I'm just going to take this as another opportunity to prepare myself mentally for the possibility of losing a fight in the doorway of my own home.

So what if a series of bad circumstances and poor tactical decisions ends up with you overpowered and disarmed in your own home? At the point where the bad guys have just defeated me and now hold my life in their hands it seems reasonable that I am going to offer to give them anything they want in exchange for leaving me alive. (I am single, live alone, and own nothing that I can't buy again later. For those with families this line of thought will undoubtedly take a very different path.)

Then I got to thinking...the most rewarding steal from my house would be my handguns. They are in a 500 lb safe that is bolted to a concrete floor. Sweet! Safe from unauthorized hands! Right? ...Wrong. Sure it would take a well skilled and well equipped burglar to get my guns while I am away. However it would take no more than a loaded gun to my head for me to spill the combo if I go with my previously described logic.

Now here's the tough part. In my buddy's case the bad guys came in with one gun and left with two. You can figure out how they acquired the second gun. Now can you guess how they acquired the first gun? I don't know for sure, but I can bet they got it from the last guy who's door they kicked in. Can you guess how they are going to use my buddy's stolen gun? I would suppose they would use it in another home invasion or maybe on one of this year's 200+ drive by shootings in this city.

The practical/ethical dilemma: Do you open the safe knowing that your guns will be used to intimidate, rob, and possibly kill your neighbors. Are you willing to supply your attacker's whole gang with your collection of handguns and cool black rifles? Are you willing to introduce even MORE firepower to your already delicate held-at-gunpoint situation? (I mean, if they shoot me with their handgun I might survive, but if they take my 870 out of the safe to do the job I'm a goner for sure.)

Everyone here talks big game about their home security measures, but lets recognize first off that no amount of guns, dogs, locks, and alarms systems is unbeatable to a skilled and determined criminal. I would like to see the discussion in this thread go less towards the physical preparation and more about the mental preparation for defending your home, surviving, and minimizing the danger to your community.

Your thoughts?

--Stork
 
What makes you think they are bargaining with you; the only thing you are buying yourself is a longer, slower, more painful demise. If they have gotten the upper hand, you have nothing in that house they want that they can't get with or without your capitulation.

Brave words, or resolute position? I hope I never have to find out.
 
The easy answer is, DON'T LOSE !

The harder answer is.......have a backup plan. A loaded gun stashed somewhere.......maybe more than one.... and the resolve to use it without hesitation.

Maybe one in the bathroom. Play real scared. throw up if you can, tell them you're going to crap your pants, can you please go the the bathroom. After that, you'll give them anything they want.... Hopefully, they'll laugh at you and let you go to the bathroom with at least one of them watching you.

Ideally, the gun would be accessible from the commode, perhaps stashed between the magazines most of us have in the "library."

That gun is NOT the one to leave chamber empty. It needs to be ready to go instantly. High capacity might be nice. Go to work quickly, with focus and aggression.

Or, Plan Z, make all your guns inert, so they cannot be used to kill you (by shooting, anyway) or anyone else.

.
 
If you fight back in any scenario, you can get hurt or killed. If you beg, plead, and cooperate you can get hurt or killed. The difference is the odds of survival-which I believe are in your favor by fighting back, and your sense of control of your destiny. Personally, I made the decision long ago after seeing the evil that people are capable of that I would rather risk death than be at their mercy, and that my last words on earth will never be "Please, don't hurt me!" but instead "Like that one a**hole? Here's another one!". But it's a personal choice.
 
So what if a series of bad circumstances and poor tactical decisions ends up with you overpowered and disarmed in your own home?
Click to expand...


I am not a internet tough guy or chest beater.That said..

If I lose I will be dead.

Just because I am not armed with a firearm(provided they can take mine from me) I am not defenseless. Just at a severe disadvantage.

I have others' lives at stake,not just property so any home invasion is truely life or death for me.
 
Todd A, I think that prior to hearing my friend's story I had a similar attitude of "If I lose I will be dead." The big sobering thought here is that I realized that you can lose and still be alive--if only temporarily. At that point you can be forced to make some pretty ugly decisions, and I think it would be better if each of us made our decisions in advance. My friend was thoroughly dominated by three armed assailants in a matter of seconds.

Just as no amount of locks and alarms will keep people out of your house 100% of the time, we need to recognize that no matter how tough/quick/trained/prepared you are there is still a chance that a group of thugs will get the jump on you and you'll find yourself in a submissive position faster than your brain can process what just happened.

These last two paragraphs may have sounded like a lecture, but I can assure you that I am NOT in a place to lecture anybody about this because I really haven't had enough time to figure out my answers to my own questions since I heard about this incident.

"Just because I am not armed with a firearm(provided they can take mine from me) I am not defenseless. Just at a severe disadvantage."

I think there is huge validity to this. You may be down but not completely out. Temporary submittal or feigned compliance can be used to buy time and search for opportunities to resist.

David E, I like your Idea about disabling your guns in storage. I think I'll not worry to much about my Mosins, but it does seem like a good idea to disassemble the pistols and maybe store the slides elsewhere.

All, thanks for the serious input on a serious topic. Keep it coming.

--Stork
 
Being dead is pretty permanent. Did your friend survive? If there is a way to live another day there is no shame in that. Now having said that, I have already made my decision to fight. There is never a guarantee of winning a gunfight, especially when faced with being outnumbered. Steps should be taken to make sure your home is as secure as possible in advance. Make your home an uninviting target. Plans should be in place in advance. Training should be taken in advance. Surrender is always an option, not my choice but an option nonetheless. Be the best fighter in the fight.
 
There are preventative measures that can lower your odds of losing.
A bar on the door to slow the invaders down if they just decide to kick down the door. Not answering the door for strangers. Being always armed. and most importantly, an attitude that if they get in the home and you're the only one between them and your family someone is going to die.

Realisticly, is a crook going to keep trying to get in while you're returning fire or will they run?
 
"Lose?" This ain't checkers or tic tac toe. If you are able to think and function (enough to walk to a safe and open it) you are able to injure them (resist, fight, kill)...if you are not able to function (too many body parts broken and/or unconscious) then your decision is made for you.

If you just "think" you "lost" or that they have the upper hand...well, you're right. If you think you can always fight, always resist, always injure them no matter the odds provided you have a functioning mind in control of an at least somewhat functioning body, you're right.

I've read about a woman disarming a shotgun wielding attacker while his handgun armed buddy stood there...an obese nurse killing a hit man with her bare hands...why didn't these people think they lost? They had no training and faced armed attackers who had the jump on them. Imagine what they could have done with some training geared precisely toward this sort of thing?

Granted....most times armed crminals encounter people...the people become "victims"...but not always, not when they fight back and don't give up. We'll never know how many fight back and fail (get killed) simply because they aren't around to tell about how hard they fought.

Not trying to be smug or confrontational...just making the point that you shouldn't be able to decide you lost...then still have options of complying or not. If you still have options...you haven't lost yet.

All the above assumes you feel your life is in grave, imminent danger...if you feel compliance will result in a good chance of survival then do so...at least until you feel differently.
 
If they do continue to try and kick the door down while you are firing on them then they don't want your things they want you!
 
Put a simpler way: Them having the metal thingies that launch projectiles by means of combustion, and you're having none of those thingies, does not mean you lost. And...the closer to you they are...the less advantage (down to no advantage) the metal thingies give them.

Hollywood always (99.99%) shows the guy pointing the gun as having complete power and control over the "pointee". Real life is different (but only if you believe it and act). Speaking of Hollywood, for a great .01% example watch the scene in HEAT outside the elevator where I believe Pacino disarms a guy w/ a gun to the back of his head. DON'T look at the silly martial arts disarms in movies as examples though! :uhoh:
 
My thoughts on this.

As I recently posted elsewhere, I'm a huge fan of running away, either obviously, or casually, so no internet machismo from me.

You're talking about survival in this situation, so you do what you need to survive. It's so situational dependent that its impossible to really give any advice.

Given that the intruders have broken in, and likely you've been disarmed, then you fall into a situation that is very scary. Not only have you lost any advantage, but the fact that you've been disarmed likely has had a huge psychological impact on you. not only have you failed to defend yourself and your family, but now the intruders have access to the things that you would normally use for self defense.

If you are in imminent risk of death, then you can obviously fight back, using any weapon at hand. If you're not then the question is what is the level of compliance that you cannot morally accept any further? Would you prefer to die than have your wife raped? In this instance there's a good chance that if you choose death, you don't remove the risk to your wife, you might increase the risk, leading to her rape and murder too. These are not questions that anyone here can answer for you, unfortunately. In that situation you need to use your brain, it's the most potent weapon you have. Try to "befriend" one of the intruders, become a person to them, not a mark, choose wisely, picking the wrong one will likely become painful if not fatal, done correctly you can wedge the group and cause infighting.

Once you are in a disadvantaged situation then the only thing that is going to save you is your cunning, and likely your compliance to get the intruders out of there. Once they've left if you're still alive, then any agreement you have with them to that point is over, tell the police everything, physical descriptions, what their voices sounded like, names if used, etc. Yes you don't want your property taken, you or your family terrorized, but considering the alternative in that situation they could take my guns, ammunition, my TV, etc. as long as the family is all breathing at the end of the situation.
 
Model of 1905, thank you for your concern for my friend. He came out of it with a pretty narly gash on his scalp from when they thumped him, but he did survive.

Strambo, In the context here when I say "lose" I'm talking about losing the initial physical struggle for control of the situation. Whether my buddy gave up mentally after that, I don't know. I wasn't there, and I don't have access to a recording of his thoughts. However he did decisively "lose" the initial fight in the doorway to his home. Still the point of this thread is less about him than it is about ME (and YOU) figuring out how to handle a situation where we find ourselves overpowered.

Many of you make very good points about having the mental toughness to continue resisting...overtly or otherwise.

--Stork
 
Todd A, I think that prior to hearing my friend's story I had a similar attitude of "If I lose I will be dead." The big sobering thought here is that I realized that you can lose and still be alive--if only temporarily. At that point you can be forced to make some pretty ugly decisions, and I think it would be better if each of us made our decisions in advance. My friend was thoroughly dominated by three armed assailants in a matter of seconds
Click to expand...


Your thoughts are valid ones. I did make up my mind what I will do after one very bad home invasion in my state. Trust me...my decisions have been made in advance.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/25/national/main3095614.shtml?source=mostpop_story

It is my duty to defend my home. I will be between my loved ones and the BG's. As long as there is breath in my body they will not pass me. I will not be compliant for any reason, armed or not.

Ohh... and I have an Aunt and Uncle who reside in Cheshire. This one hit too close to home.
 
Would you prefer to die than have your wife raped? In this instance there's a good chance that if you choose death, you don't remove the risk to your wife, you might increase the risk, leading to her rape and murder too. These are not questions that anyone here can answer for you, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

I was brought up in the tradition of the Dog Soldiers, a Tsitsistas Warrior society. When the Dog Soldiers fought a defensive action they carried a scared arrow that was tethered to them, once they drove that arrow into the ground they were telling the world they would not retreat and, short of victory, they would not leave the field alive. If you attack my family I'm pinning the arrow

Like I said before what, criminal is going to continue to press the attack when you start shooting back? What do they have to gain? Even if it's a professional hit, the odds of which would be....?, why back a losing play? Retreat and fight again another day
 
However he did decisively "lose" the initial fight in the doorway to his home. Still the point of this thread is less about him than it is about ME (and YOU) figuring out how to handle a situation where we find ourselves overpowered.
Click to expand...
I understand the spirit of the thread and wasn't thinking of the specific incident at all in my replies (I'm glad he survived.)

My point was (using the incident as an example): If his only injury was a gash on his head...then he was otherwise fully functional. He didn't lose, he gave up and complied and thankfully survived (at the whim of his assailants).

My post was about not ever giving up. Them gaining physical control at the doorway and getting in and having guns wasn't him losing...just him being at a serious disadvantage vs if he had fought them back successfully at the doorway.

You've outlined a situation where you fight and "lose" (temporarily, any tactical advantage) then have a choice between compliance and martyrdom. I'm just saying it's a false dichotomy. If you can still think and move, you haven't lost yet, hence a 3rd option.

I always try to point out where everyday people fight back and win against overwhelming odds. The nurse definitely lost her fight for control initially against the man hired to kill her...but she continued to fight back and strangled him with her bare hands in the kitchen. Same with the couple facing 2 armed men in their home...and the wife disarming the shotgun wielding assailant, then husband gets shotgun and shoots them.

Sure, fighting back against overwhelming odds is far from assured survival...but it gives an option other than compliance or token resistance (simply refusing to comply with a demand). I'm not sayin' it's easy...just possible.
 
First, I have two dogs and they are loud and vicous sounding when strangers come to the house. So it would be unusual for someone to get the drop on me.

Next, I'm always well armed.

But if someone gained the upper hand, I would never open my safe -

You're going to get robbed. My biggest fear is being locked in the empty safe.
 
To answer the question as asked with its constraints: If given the choice between giving them my guns (and they are already armed) and getting my family killed or myself, I'd give them the guns. It's not like they don't have some already and the odds of my guns being used to kill somebody down the road are slim. The odds of them killing me if I don't or my family are near 100% according to this siuation.

I doubt there is one violent criminal in the US who wants to use a firearm for crime but can't get one. Mine hitting the street (more likely pawn shop for drug $$) won't matter in the grand scheme of things. That's better than some definite murders if I don't. Besides, who knows, they may be caught based on my testimony and may have gotten away with it if they murdered me. I don't have a crystal ball and it isn't like I'm giving them Nuclear launch codes.
 
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I think you're definitely on the right track for preparing mentally for what could happen. The problem is the variables. I've seen the "mercy" (or lack therof) of some BG's and as a result, I have never backed down, even after losing the upper hand. If there's no one in the house and your safe is locked, is it safe to boogie? Three BG's are a LOT different than one. Depends on the situation. Prepare mentally. Maybe have some innocuous weapons inconspicuously stashed around that you may be able to get to. Prepare mentally for every scenario you can imagine. Train your body and mind to the best of your ability and always... always be as aware of your situation as you can be. That being said. Pray for the strength and clear mindedness to get through and hope for the best.

God willing it's a situation you'll never have to face, but that you're thinking in advance will help you in good stead I think. Just my .02 :D
 
The easy answer is, DON'T LOSE !

The harder answer is.......have a backup plan. A loaded gun stashed somewhere.......maybe more than one.... and the resolve to use it without hesitation.
Click to expand...

I never thought about losing and still do not. I won two gun fights against multiple gun armed home invaders and, God forbid, if there is a third; I will win that one. One must be mentally prepared to win at all costs. Part of being prepared is having guns handy for use.

There are four hidden S&W model 10 guns in this house, or is if five? There is a 12 gauge shotgun in this junk room and another in the master bedroom. There is a loaded SKS in another room. There is a gun on my body all the time I am dressed.
 
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