Home Invasions--What if you lose?

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There's no good solution. People who claim they will fight to the death are probably fools.
If you attempt one really stupid futile gesture you will very very likely be dead.
If you comply you might come out of it relatively OK.
Given that bad choice the second option seems better.
 
If you attempt one really stupid futile gesture you will very very likely be dead.
If you comply you might come out of it relatively OK.
Given that bad choice the second option seems better.
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Sure, given that way of phrasing it. I could phrase it differently and lead to an entirely different conclusion and selection of who's the fool. Both POVs are backed up by real world data. People get killed in home invasions when they comply. They get killed when they resist. They survive when they comply. They survive when they resist.

Just depends on the person, the criminals, environmental factors, drugs or intoxication of the criminals, mental attitude of all involved, chance...all which will be different in each case. And many of those factors can be in flux and change during the same incident.

I will say this: I hate the idea of my fate being 100% in control of a violent, unstable felon. I'm hesitant to make a blanket statement to a hypothetical...but while I can certainly imagine complying and would do so in certain situations, I can't imagine where I'd let them tie me up. At that point I'd rather risk my and my families' lives with my action than put us all in the hands of the criminals where I have no options left.

A little saying I came across in some H2H instruction that stuck with me: "If you think you are about to be in a violent situation...make it violent!"
 
People who claim they will fight to the death are probably fools.
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I've been called worse.:D:D:D:D:D:D

Really,if you think you can comply and be safe then that is your choice to make. I hope you never,ever find yourself in that situation.

It is not my place to say you are wrong, you might not be.


As I said in my prior post I am not the only one in my home. Read the link to a news report I posted. They complied for two felons who had no history of violent crime. Unfortunately the felons decided this time they would resort to violence.

I cannot bet the safety of my loved ones on the good will of a home invader.I will fight tooth and nail if I have to to ensure their survival. I may not win, but they will at least have time to get to the safe room, barracade, and arm themselves.
 
I'm not going to talk details because 1) I don't know all the details and 2) I respect the dude's privacy.
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Stork:
I respect your position on not wanting to provide details, but it might be instructive if you could give us some idea how the thugs initially gained entry.
 
I don't know what to say to this. If I lost a gunfight I would expect to be dead. If someone kicked my door in at night, unless they have knowledge of the house they've actually given me a good amount of time to grab the shotty and secure my bedroom room door which is at the end of a long hallway, an effective bottleneck. LEO response is atleast 15 min away and probably 25 minutes and I have done my best to account for this. But if I ran out of ammo or the like, I'd try to go somewhat passive till I could formulate a plan to go on the offensive.
 
People who claim they will fight to the death are probably fools.
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What would you call a man who would surrender and allow his wife to be abused?

Put your self in my shoes. Before you get into my house you have already:

1. Come a long way out of town down a dirt road that dead ends in my yard. That alone just cut the odds that it's some random robbery to almost nil.
2. You've alerted all 4 of my dogs and there's no doubt in your mind that you've done so.
3. You don't know this but when you came thru the gate ,that you had to stop and open, you tripped the driveway alarm.
4. You broke my window and set off another alarm, this one you and every one within 50 yards knows about.
Or
5. You kicked down my door (barred) and set off another alarm.

By this time I would imagine that I'm shooting, Either from the barn behind you or from the top of the stairs with every one in the family behind me and my wife on the phone.

If I'm in the barn you're really srcewed because my wife ( she's not nice like me) is at the top of the stairs with the shot gun.

I laid out my home defenses in such a way to give you multiple opportunities to change your mind

If you're still coming after all that, it's not just some random robbery. You are there to kill some one and I have nothing to gain by surrender.


Reallisticly what are the odds?
I'm not a drug dealer, I'm not rich, I don't work for a casino. As far as the government is concerned I'm just a number on a tribal roster and I'm not that good looking.


Unless your name is Chivington, I think I'm safe
 
What would you call a man who would surrender and allow his wife to be abused?
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Alive?
What would you call a man who made a futile effort at resistence, which resulted in his wife watching his unfortunate demise, right before she was abused?
Self-indulgent? Vainglorious? Irresponsible?
As I said, there are no good outcomes to this scenario.
 
Fortunately, I'm young and dumb enough to think I won't lose. Heh.

Seriously, though, if I'm overpowered in the short term, I might think it's a good idea to at least play along, keeping an eye open for a good opportunity to turn the tables. Of course, the window for that opportunity lasts exactly until I open the gun safe, at which point I am no longer of use.

In other words, the only way I'm opening the safe is if I figure I can grab a gun from inside and use it against my attackers before they overpower me again or kill me.

Another tactic I might try is pretending to be either useless or badly injured from the initial attack. Curl up in a ball and whimper; non-compliance disguised as physical or psychological incapacitation. Being so obviously non-threatening and/or "traumatized", they may well not even bother to finish me off or try to make me open the safe.

Then again, they might. And if it comes down to "open the safe or we start doing stuff to you", then I'm back to square one. If they even give me the opportunity, instead of shooting me even as I lay whimpering in the fetal position, just because.


It's really a nightmare scenario to begin with. I don't plan on being "overpowered" short of dead or unconscious, anyway, since there's so little difference between "Dead now" and "Dead a minute later".
 
Alive?
What would you call a man who made a futile effort at resistence, which resulted in his wife watching his unfortunate demise
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I don't think resistance is futile. Did you read my post? I know youre on my property 30 seconds before you get to my house. I know your not going to my neighbor's (1/4 mile away) a couple of minutes before you get to my gate as do my dogs, and my chickens. The whole house is awake before you get out of the car.

Who's the one being futile?

Again, again and again if you went to all that trouble you're not planning to leave anyone alive anyway.

I'm sorry, but I'm a little frustrated because I feel like you're not hearing me.

There are 600 or so people that live in my county 325 of them live in the county seat, 40 miles away. People don't just "drop in" if you end up at my house you're A. lost or B. Looking for me. Nobody freindly drives all that way unless they call first.

Bottom line I just can't see a random robbery going that far.
 
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My plan is to be in the bathroom with my wife behind me. If you get to that point, Im shooting. Im armed and so is she, so I think the only likelyhood of us to stop shooting is because we have been shot.

I have a bit of a temper, I think if my adrenaline gets going like that, I doubt I will be bale to "play dead" so I'm kind of cominted to the "fight to the death" mentality.

Screw the warier mentality and Internet commando chest beating, I couldn't stand my self, even if I were hog tied and had a gun to my face, to see my wife raped. I would rather be dead.
 
Until you've been shot at, you don't really know what you're going to do...........I've been shot at one time, and I know how I reacted. My 2 boys were with me, and surrender was not on my mind.

Like Clint Smith says "We're all gonna die, but it shouldn't be because we're not shooting back"
 
What would you call a man who made a futile effort at resistence, which resulted in his wife watching his unfortunate demise, right before she was abused?
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First of all, if she took that opportunity to do nothing but watch then that's her decision. She has the means to do more than just watch, and I trust that if my effort at resistance is futile it will give her time to be more effective.

Second, even if I can't stop them, I think that their original plan will be somewhat disrupted by either my shots or theirs. I doubt they'll be as keen to hang around after the shooting as they would be had I surrendered without a shot.

Finally, if my wife's going to be abused and I have my choice, I'd rather not be around to see it. I'll do my best to see it doesn't happen, give her a chance to see it doesn't happen and if none of that works then at least there's a very good chance I won't have to watch what comes next.

Frankly I don't consider dying trying to be a loss, more like a tie. A loss to me is being captured & held prisoner in my own house.
 
My dogs go crazy if someone gets near my house in the middle of the day, if its three in the morning its gonna be world war 3 doggie style:D. I have a german shep/malamute mix and a mut named roxie that greatly resembles a pit. If they got past the dogs and thats a BIG if, they would be crying by the time they made it to my bedroom where they would meet a VERY awake and adrenaline pumped me( i am a very light sleeper) with a surefire and a redhawk aimed at 'em. Like others have said.....no chest beating here, though i have never experienced this situation, I did have the joy of experiencing a situation that I percieved to be a home invasion. One night at about 2a.m my wife and I were awoken by a bang and my dogs standing in the hallway growling and snarling as if something was in the house. Now this is something I have thought alot about and wondered "what would i do"? Well to my pleasant surprise I was up, very alert and awake and had my 12" KABAR (pistol was still in my truck for some reason) in hand within about 10 seconds. I dont have special training, just common sense. If i told you I wasnt terrified I would be lying, I was shaking pretty bad. Its not a nice feeling thinking your loved ones are in immediate danger. I did not want to go investigate, but I knew that my dogs would destroy whatever it was before it was remotely close to me and my wife. Turned out to be a black bear having its way with my trashcan right outside the front door. Bottom line is, mental preparedness is key. Just be aware that it could happen. Fortunately I got to see how I would react truly believing that it was happening to me without it actually happening. Be smart, be safe, be aware,be willing to act.........BE ALIVE:)
 
I'm sorry, but I'm a little frustrated because I feel like you're not hearing me.
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You failed to read the OP. In this scenario every plan you've made has already failed and the bad guys are next to you, pointing guns at your head. So I don't care about your dogs, alarms, isolation, or Quad 50 in the living room.

Frankly I don't consider dying trying to be a loss, more like a tie. A loss to me is being captured & held prisoner in my own house.
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Rule #1: Go home alive. A lot of people depend on me. My death would be catastrophic to them. Fantasies of martyrdom just don't play out well against that reality. Being held at gunpoint is temporary. Dying is permanent.
 
My plan is to be in the bathroom with my wife behind me. If you get to that point, Im shooting. Im armed and so is she, so I think the only likelyhood of us to stop shooting is because we have been shot. (Roadwild17)
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Until you've been shot at, you don't really know what you're going to do...........I've been shot at one time, and I know how I reacted. My 2 boys were with me, and surrender was not on my mind. (Clarence)
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Nice try, but I've been in both scenarios, at the same time. And it's nice to plan how you can protectyourself from home intruders, if it happens at home. What about somewhere else?

This is a true story. It happened in Burbank, CA in 1981.

My wife, our baby and I were at her parent's house. Only the three of us were there. The baby was in a playpen in the hallway. We were in the shower, about 15 feet from the baby.

Suddenly the bathroom door opened, and an intruder is standing there with a .22 revolver, telling us to get out of the shower. (He was an ex-boyfriend of my wife's sister, and he was VERY drunk). Both naked, my wife and I obviously had nowhere to hide a weapon, and being in another person's house, we did not have anything stashed in the bathroom. And the BG was between us and the baby. So much for me being a hero; all we could do was comply.

He let us get dressed, but kept the gun on the baby. Then he stepped back behind the playpen, told me to pick the baby up, and made us go sit on the couch in the living room. He sat across the room from us, never dropping the weapon from our direction.

He made me keep the baby in my lap, and he was about 20 feet away, so I couldn't jump him if I wanted to. He stated that his intent was to hold us until her sister would go back to him.

We spent the next hour trying to beg him to call it off and go home. He started nodding off, but something startled him and the gun went off, hitting about 4 inches from my leg. Then, he told me to go to his car in the back alley for a pack of cigarettes. Luckily I was able to signal a neighbor to call the police.

When I went back inside, (I did not have access to a weapon in the meantime and my family was inside with this ass), I had to hold the baby again.

About 5 minutes later, the cops showed up. They looked through the window, saw the guy holding a gun on us, and yelled for him to drop it. Thankfully, he complied, and no one got shot.

I won't go over the legal crap except to say that the prick got away with it in court. Three counts of assault with a deadly weapon, three counts of kidnapping, and discharging a firearm, with police as witnesses, and he walked. (Welcome to California)

- - - - -

My point is that you can prepare for things, but not everything.

I've run the scene through my mind countless times. If I should have done this or that. If I should have been more cunning. If I had tried to go from the back alley, around the house to my car to get my weapon, and confront him. What then? He still had a gun on my family. The macho attitude is okay, if you have a chance. I didn't. Not with a gun pointed at my baby's head.

- - - -

Just my 2 cents worth!
 
Tophog, horrifying story but it sounds like you did the best you could under the circumstances. It's too bad that repeatedly smashing the guy's head in a heavy door with police assisting wasn't an option.
 
This is a tough one, and the simple answer (that says virtually nothing) is I would play it by ear.

Quite simply, it depends. How are the intruders (intruder) armed, do I know them? Most importantly, How are they acting?

If I thought these were just some creeps who were so strung out, they only wanted my stuff, I'd probably give it to them. If they were acting like they were going to leave no witnesses, I'd fight them under the idea I was already a dead man fighting for his life.

Granted, I am a single man who has no one living with him.

Child, or lady living with me? This whole thing changes.

It's a situation I hope never happens.

But, it's situational. Very much so. And it's one of those things where I could easily be wrong, but I've read alot of accounts of this sort of thing. Even hardened killers tend to dehumanize those they are gonna take out before hand, because for most people, it's not easy, even if they've done it, to kill a person in cold blood without first divorcing yourself of the idea that it's a person your killing.

As for a woman in this situation... you are almost certainly going to be raped. Generally, you'll know. A similar... objectification occurs. You have to decide if you are going to fight it or not, but, most rapists don't make deals.

Basically, if I saw myself being devalued, I'd make a move. I decided a long time ago I wouldn't be led to my death without a fight, even if it is hopeless.
 
There IS a lot of chest thumping going on here. Anybody who says that they will be dead, or worse, they will not lose, have not thought things through and probably won't be mentally prepared when something unexpected does actually happen.

I have been on the wrong side of a home invasion and I did lose. I'd be willing to bet that every single one of you would have lost too given the circumstances. Accept the fact that you might someday be put into a no win situation. Surviving those situations becomes more of a mental exercise (doing the smart thing) than a physical one.
 
Well, going with what the OP stated My dogs are dead, and I've lost for some reason, but still coherent.

Beggining here it would really depend on the situation. I don't have a safe so i'd let them take the guns they see and not tell them about the guns they don't see.
It's really very situational, but the main thing is exactly like if you get stuck in the wrong bar at the wrong time. try everything to avoid a fight but if it looks like its gonna happen anyway strike first.
If I think they just want my stuff then they can have it. I can always get more guns/tv/etc.
Now, if my GF was over and a bunch of guys came in blasting I'd have her run outside for help(hopefully with her phone) ( I live in the suburbs) this way even if I'm over powered shes ok, or at least thats the best I can do
 
Tophog, terrible story, I'm pleased you're still here to speak about it, and it illustrates exactly my point about the situation, in my original reply.

To the OP's point. You and whoever is with you are already in a tactically disadvantaged position. Everyone with the John Wayne position of no-one if going to get into my home with me alive is not really looking at the situation as the OP described it, because as the OP described it you would already be dead in that situation. The situation described was that you were not dead, you do not have dogs, you do not have bolted doors, or the assailants came through the window, survived your WWIII of home defense and now you're disarmed (of your guns and likely any big knives too) and how do you deal with that.

I think a lot of people are confusing a lot of things in this situation, the point is to survive. Having a plan of how to prevent this happening is one step of defense. Planning escape routes is another, but when it comes down to it, all plans fail at some point.

My original response is to play for time, because of the simple fact that dying is a lack of time, dying is also an inability for you to do anything more in that situation, and it allows you to escape, but your death does nothing for anyone else depending on you. Worse still if the Bad guy(s) is(are) smart too, he's aware they're likely in a capital crime situation, and you can only be executed once, so all bets are off as far as fear of law enforcement is concerned.

You cannot plan for this in the hypothetical because at some point we will all concede and make a futile attack that leads to your death, or complete compliance trusting the goodwill of the intruders.

Think about this, Special Ops (Delta, SEALS, SAS etc.) are trained to resist torture, for as long as possible most expect a minimum of 24 hours. Most Military doctrine expects all captured operatives to crack after maximum 24 hours of capture (not torture). If these people who are put into harms way with years of training, fail to evade capture, and are involuntarily caught alive, and then are put into a captive situation, are expected to fully comply within less than 24 hours. So what are they trained in this situation to do? Resist, until its futile, then appear compliant, work their captors to create friction between them, survive and escape if possible. I think that given the parameters of the OP's post, we could learn a lot from that.
 
armoredman said:
leadcounsel said:
My biggest fear is being locked in the empty safe.
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Cheap prepaid phone under the carpeting in one corner. Right next to a small pistol.
Sorry, best I can come up with.
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To add to this, any old phone with batteries can call 911 for free, even if it's not paid at all.

Do big safes have an emergency lockout from the inside? I thought they did...
 
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