Home Invasions--What if you lose?

[alsaqr]

You got a link to a news report on this?

Both incidents happened over 40 years ago. I do have copies of the news paper clippings.

 

[Guns and more]

Sorry for your friend, but I'll bet he hesitated before shooting.
I don't think the perps would have wrestled the gun away if he was firing.
Don't have a gun if you're not prepared to use it.

 

[lanternlad1]

I'm not chest thumping, but I will say that if I lose, I'm NOT giving them the combination to my safe. They may leave with one more gun than they came in with, but that will be it. It would be too hard on my conscience if they menaced the public with my weapons because of my weakness. At that point, they are terrorists, and I will not negotiate with them.

 

[JohnKSa]

Rule #1: Go home alive. A lot of people depend on me. My death would be catastrophic to them. Fantasies of martyrdom just don't play out well against that reality. Being held at gunpoint is temporary. Dying is permanent.

That's your rule, not mine. Different things are important to different people. My Rule #1 (at least as far as the situation being discussed) is not to get taken captive in my own house. As I am not omnipotent, my rule might someday get broken just as one day you might not go home alive, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my strategy or priorities to match yours. I've already thought through what is important to me and made decisions based on those priorities, just as you have thought through what's important to you and made your own decisions.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to assert that anyone who thinks differently than you or who has different priorities than you must be fantasizing about being a martyr or isn't in touch with reality.

Anybody who says that they will be dead, or worse, they will not lose, have not thought things through and probably won't be mentally prepared when something unexpected does actually happen.

Again, not being omnipotent, there's no way I can absolutely guarantee an outcome, but I can take what I consider reasonable steps to put the odds on my side. I'm not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that my strategy means that I have not thought things through and probably won't be mentally prepared--it's precisely because I have thought things through that I have a reasonable level of confidence in my strategy. A strategy, by the way, is a form of mental preparation.

 

[Bubba613]

You're right that everyone has different priorities. Mine is to stay alive for my family. If yours is to die in a futile stupid effort then so be it. I can't argue with that.

 

[357wheelgunner]

This is why everyone should train hard in martial arts. You shouldn't be dependant on having a gun in your hand to defend yourself.

My answer: If I'm beaten, surrounded, with a gun to my head.....I'll do everything I can to break the arm holding that gun, and die fighting. There's a chance that the rest would run away, or they all might shoot or stab me. Either way it's better than being executed after giving away all of my guns to criminals.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Interesting thread. I hadn't thought about this issue quite this way before. Once as a young teen I was overpowered at the door by a group of other teens I knew, most of them hiding while one knocked. What I did completely frustrated their plan, which was to tie me up and make me reveal certain information.

I ran out the back door of the house.

That put them in the position of being "under the clock." What were they going to do, grab what few valuables they might see and run? That wasn't their plan anyway. I was gone like Donkey Kong, and it took me just seconds to reach a telephone. They split without taking anything. Vengeance came slow, but sure.

As an adult, my situation is different. My apartment is a sort of trap for an intruder. Anyone breaking in through the outer and inner perimeters would find himself surrounded by both lethal and nonlethal weapons and hazards they either cannot see or likely would not immediately appreciate, in a layout not immediately obvious from the street, with many vantage points. I selected my apartment partly for this very reason.

But if they completely overpowered me, I'd run. Again, multiple exits and seconds to a phone, even if they got my mobile phone away from me. What are they going to do, load up everything they can grab and run out in full view of the entire neighborhood, perhaps into the arms of arriving responders? And then there's my car gun.

The bad situation would be getting so overpowered that I was restrained. It's never happened, so I just don't know what I'd do. Probably laugh.

 

[StorkPatrol]

Quote:
I'm not going to talk details because 1) I don't know all the details and 2) I respect the dude's privacy.
Stork:
I respect your position on not wanting to provide details, but it might be instructive if you could give us some idea how the thugs initially gained entry.

Rainbowbob, well I hate to say this but the one and only stupid mistake that led to my friend losing control of his home was that he opened the friggen door. I'm hoping that this will not be big news to anyone who is posing in a self defense forum but here it is in case you don't already know...

DON'T OPEN THE DOOR FOR STRANGERS.

That being said I would appreciate it if you all kept the posts calling my buddy an idiot to a minimum. He's a super nice guy and wanted to help somebody who he thought was lost. I suppose it takes all types to make the world go round. I myself am not a super nice guy who helps people outside at night who are "lost". Hell, yesterday when I was posting in this thread I kept typing and ignored some girl scouts at the door.

Anyway, the gun you brought to the door as a talisman does you nothing if you aren't expecting to have to use it.

--Stork

 

[Duke of Doubt]

That's right, Stork.

Another thing I like about my apartment is that there's no way to knock on my inner door without entering the outer door, and the outer door is visible from multiple positions within the building. An unscheduled visitor would have to scream at the top of his lungs for me to take notice (the neighborhood can be noisy sometimes), and a prowler just isn't going to do that. Breaking in the outer door to get inside would be pretty easy, but very noisy and the object of immediate attention.

 

[LKB3rd]

What about a handgun hidden near/under the safe. You might be able to get it while shielding their view, as you bend down to "unlock the safe." Just food for thought, if they had a gun to your head, you'd better have a pretty well thought out and practiced plan. And, what if there are two of them with guns pointed at you...

 

[Duke of Doubt]

LKB3d: "And, what if there are two of them with guns pointed at you..."

Get between them and duck.

 

[gripper]

Years ago ,when iI still lived in a city in Ma., I had two diots trying to take off the gram guy down th ehall from me force my door ay 0230 AM....no guns were involved,but at some point in th efestivities;one guy got his ankle broken when he tried to kick me in the groin...the cops came a short time later( neighbors called) and found me rolling around on the linoleum with other guy and had to pokeme across the head and hands with a flashlight to get my attention (and make me let go of his head-I had my thumbs in his eyes and was trying to put his head through the floor next to my door.)

 

[rainbowbob]

...the one and only stupid mistake that led to my friend losing control of his home was that he opened the friggen door...DON'T OPEN THE DOOR FOR STRANGERS.

That being said I would appreciate it if you all kept the posts calling my buddy an idiot to a minimum.

Thanks Stork. I suspected that was the case - but you won't hear the pot calling the kettle black from this corner.

Several months ago I started a poll thread on the subject of opening the door to strangers:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=382921

In my initial post I stated:

I have decided I would NEVER open the door for a stranger without a VERY compelling reason. For me, this would have to be a woman and/or child in real distress. I would want to be able to identify them and determine what the situation was BEFORE the door was unlocked. I would even be wary of a young woman alone unless I was absolutely convinced she was in distress. She could be a shill with the BF lurking out of sight.

Now comes the embarrassing part...The next day or so - while writing a response in that very thread (I kid you not) - there was a loud knock on the door and my dog went nuts. I looked out the window and saw an older gentleman with what looked like a deliveryman's outfit, a small box, and a clipboard. My wife and I work out of our home and often get FedEx and UPS deliveries. Without thinking I opened the door :banghead: only to discover that I was being served with legal papers!

It was a clever ruse, and fortunately his intentions were "just business". But what if he had been the innocent-looking front man for an invasion team? It proved to me that even though I had thought it through, I hadn't really committed to my strategy. It was a real wake-up call for me, and it taught me that just writing something on an internet forum isn't good enough - not even close.

Whatever strategies and tactics we decide on; we must think them through, talk about them with our loved ones, commit to them, and practice them until they become second nature.

Like I said...I won't be casting aspersions on your friend. Nobody here but us idiots.

 

[503glock]

1 i am glad your friend was ok thank god. 2 i always keep one loaded in the safe so maybe that would help. i also have a few hold out pistols in the house away from the safe but i have to be carfull i have little girls at home. if it is just me at home i might tell him or them to go ,./,. off .but with that said if my little ones are there i would play it real cool . if i thought they would hurt my kids not only would i give them any thing they want i would help them carry it to the car and give them directions and gas money . point beeing there are somethings i am not willing to risk . but none of us know for sure how any thing goes down till it does. just my thought ..

 

[Little_Bigman]

well I hate to say this but the one and only stupid mistake that led to my friend losing control of his home was that he opened the friggen door.

I seem to remember stating, early in this thread, that not opening the front door to strangers would aleviate 99% of these incidents. Without the internet chest beating! This also seems to be the type of thing you can do 100% of the time without any internet Ninjutsu training.

Which again leads me to my previous point; if you've defeated all my home defense measures and continued the attack, you're there to kill someone ( maybe my five year old is a secret drug runner?) in my family specifically and I have NOTHING to gain by surrender.

Now if you'll pardon me, my chest hurts

 

[rookie]

Well...

My place is fenced. Three German Shepherds. So that helps. Although not a fool proof perimeter. Just a beginning. An early warning.....In the 20 years I have been in this house there have only been a handful of times where a stranger has come and only once did someone come inside the gate to come to the door. (The dogs were inside then.) Anyone at the door can be seen. Yes they may have partners hiding. We all know that. Overall this has been a good thread. We have to imagine and visualize a myriad of possibilities in this insane and often dangerous world. My wife and I do not even go to "the gate" for UPS, flower deliveries, electric company, etc. We tell them to leave whatever they have at the driveway.
As far opening the safe, if caught off guard? I wouldn't open it. Like someone mentioned, I would fake sick, heart attack, etc.....and crash out, buy time, something. Most times I have a handgun not very easy to find beside a chair. I have a heart attack and come out firing. As for the safe.... I would tell them the safe was left by Dad who died and I am waiting for the will to be read to get the combination. Yes, that sounds, perhaps, pretty lame. I just would not open it. Like another mentioned, I am not getting locked in a safe!!!

 

[viperstarbuck]

You should fight as long and hard as you can. However, there are situations where you have no options whatsoever. In which case, if you feel so have done everything in your power to have prevented the theft of your guns and the incident in the first place, then you should feel no guilt. It is no longer in your hands. If somebody stole my car despite its being locked, alarmed, insured and parked in my driveway, and then used it to run a red light and kill a innocent, am i to blame? No. That being said, responsibility mandates you do everything in your power to insure it never gets to that point.

 

[polekitty]

Well, a lot of ideas out there. I'm too old and feeble for any agressive hand to hand stuff. And I never open my front door to anyone, day or night. My dog makes a lot of noise, and the cats really make a commotion when they panic and begin to scatter. The only time I'm not "packing" is when I'm asleep in bed, and then it's in bed with me. Hopefully I'll stop the bad guy when he's still 10 ft away. Since I don't open my door he'll have to kick it in and that's all the evidence I need to say I had a good reason to shoot him. And I don't even own a .22.

 

[MaterDei]

I posted my story before but it was over 5 years ago so I hope you'll forgive me for copying any pasting it here. It fits the theme of this thread perfectly.

I and my family were victims of a home invasion in 1991. I had just returned to the US from a tour of duty in Germany. Because my personal belongings had not cleared customs my handguns, a CZ-75 and a CZ-50, were not available to me.

I'm going to shock a lot of people with this comment but it needs to be said. I'm glad that I didn't have the weapons in the home at the time. I'm especially glad that I didn't have one on my person. Only one of two things could have happened, they would have either have been stolen or they could have contributed to me being murdered.

This is what happened, decide for yourself whether you agree.

We were living in a townhome at the time in Houston, basically it was a big two story apartment with units on either side. It was about 9 pm on a weekend night. My wife, my inlaws, 3 children and I were at home. We had just finished eating and were cleaning up. Without any warning both the front and back doors of the townhome were busted in (they were locked) and 8 individuals (6 men and 2 women) armed with sawed off shotguns and handguns basically invaded our home. There was zero reaction time and zero warning. Sometimes the BGs just have the drop on people. This was one of those times.

While I was pinned to the floor, literally with a shotgun to my temple (I had a nice round scab the exact size of a 12 GA barrel on the side of my face for about a month), the BGs, a gang actually, ransacked my home stealing what little valuables I had at the time, sexually assaulted my wife and butt stroked my father-in-law a few times (he was hospitalized for a day due to some internal bleeding). The BGs were in our home for about 20 minutes. A neighbor called 911 when he heard what was happening (a lot of yelling, etc.). The police arrived 5 minutes after the BGs had gone.

Lessons learned.

Does this mean that I don't believe that one should prepare for one or more bad guys busting into one's home? HELL NO. I realize that what happened to us was not typical and that more often then not, with a good home invasion plan in place, proper planning makes perfect sense and could help avert a tradegy. We were very fortunate that nobody was killed.

The reason I'm telling my story is try to suggest that a good home invasion defense plan should include planning for how you would react in the event that you won't be able to execute plan A or plan B. How will you react if you don't have time to get to a weapon? How would you react if you awoke with a BG standing at the foot of your bed with a weapon trained on you? How should your family members react and what should they do? etc. Most of the planning is simply mental excercises and conditioning but I think they are important.

epilogue - We worked with the cops to help catch these oxygen thiefs. We were featured on a local TV crime show in Houston called 'City Under Seige'. It was some artist sketches of the bad guys, along with some names that they called each other, that appeared on the show that led to their arrests. My wife never again went into that apartment and took several years to fully recover. The bad guys said that the were told that we had guns and drugs in the apartment. They obviously got the wrong apartment. They were on a crime spree at the time of the attack. Prior to our incident they had murdered two people a Yellow Cab driver and a convenience store clerk. As far as I know they are all still in jail.

 

[dudester]

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

Thank you all for this thread. Although it is not something I enjoy thinking about, I have been thinking about it alot and formulating a plan. The first step for me is to employ some common sense rules for the family to follow when at home. Maybe they will help someone else as well...

LOCKDOWN RULES!!!
1) NEVER open the front door for strangers NO MATTER WHAT!!!!! If it is a delivery they can leave it and we can get it when they leave. Leave a note on the door and let them know to leave it if we are expecting something.
2) Lock all windows and make sure they are secure.
3) Install a "sight" in the front door so we can see who is at the door.
4) Use the bolt locks on the front and back doors always whether we are home or not.
5) Always lock the outside and inside (storm) doors when we are home.

Paranoid? Maybe a little bit but there have been some "things" going on in our neighborhood lately and I would like to think that these precautions would buy us an extra minute or two to get to our fallback position and our weapons.

God bless those of you who have had to go through this first hand. I promise to learn from your experience and use it to the best of my ability. Lord willing none of us will ever have to go through this scenario or ever have to use a lethal weapon against another person.

P.S. To you guys with dogs...I have always had big dogs, even supposedly ferocious ones that other folks were very afraid of. Unless they are pro-trained defense dogs, give any of them a hamburger and they are out of the game. My hope is that they will be able to make enough noise to either deter someone or give me some additional time.

God bless. -Frank

 

[Little_Bigman]

Question for those who have survived a home invasion.

I've noticed that in the incidents described in this discussion the common factors seem to be a detail slip , doors not properly secured, the one time you decide to open the door for a stranger etc. etc. etc.

Has your experience changed your thinking on home defense? Do you secure the doors, refuse to open for strangers, and such?

I would also like to note that in none of these situations was the home owner able to get off a single shot.

I'm curious what level of casualties the invaders are willing to take to get into the house.

 

[Javelin]

Right now if sommeone broke in my front door I only have a side-folder AK sitting on the couch cushion w/ 30 round mag (yeah don't ask). My Glock is in the bedroom which would be the ideal thing to have. But I guess if I were to lose it is not because I don't have enough firepower.

Its going to be a fight though either way.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I am on the wiegh the odds side of things. I would comply, but look for opportunities, like pushing them / him down stairs, grabbing a knife, overpowering, etc. I think if they had you at gunpoint and you were un-armed, you have to improve the odds before acting. Otherwise, thats called suicide.

That being said, I have had some experience, and you need to have a plan and do some things to secure your home. ANYONE could fall victim to an assault style invasion, but if you have solid doors, dead bolts, lights, and basic security, the plan is to buy enough time to arm yourself. Another key item is awarness. We purposly do not do certain things from our home, like sell things out front. It makes it to easy to be having random people coming to the house, etc. Also, if you live in a bad area and can.....MOVE!

 

[JohnKSa]

If yours is to die in a futile stupid effort then so be it.

Nice to see you have an open mind. Is there some reason you can't discuss this without continually asserting that anyone who doesn't follow your lead will be acting futilely & stupidly?

That said, my effort will not be futile if I succeed. It will also not be futile if I fail because it will give my wife additional time to mount a better defense.

The BGs were in our home for about 20 minutes. A neighbor called 911 when he heard what was happening (a lot of yelling, etc.). The police arrived 5 minutes after the BGs had gone.

I suspect you would have gotten a much more rapid police response had the neighbor reported gunfire instead of just yelling. I also suspect that the BG's would have cut short their stay had they been met with gunfire, even if they had managed to "win" the initial gunfight.

Of course that's just speculation.

I'm glad that I didn't have the weapons in the home at the time. I'm especially glad that I didn't have one on my person.

There's always the potential for dying in a violent attack, in your case not offering armed resistance resulted in the survival of all involved and you seem to be happy with the outcome. However, there's never any guarantee that compliance will result in survival. In your situation they could have done everything that you described and then still killed your family before they left. I doubt that would have left you with the same positive opinion of being unarmed...

I'm not in favor of depending on the mercy of violent criminals. So I plan accordingly. Maybe my plan will work, maybe not--no plan is foolproof. But I know what my goal is and I have a reasonable strategy to attain it. Other people have different goals and different strategies. Fortunately that doesn't threaten my image of myself or make me feel like insulting them or their plans.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Losing is not an option...

That said...if I do lose...I'll be laying in a pile of brass with an empty gun in my hand.