Homeland Security using Hi Point Carbine?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The rifles are used quite a bit every time you do an entry or felony stop. Radios are fine but I would rather carry an old saber and have an Ar then have a pistol caliber pop gun that is more likely to get me killed than the bad guy. I know all about budgets and the facts of life when it comes to buying equipment. However there are somethings you don't compromise on. Guns must meet a minimal acceptable standard no pistol caliber pop gun does that much less a high point. There is all kinds of gov't grants out there. Getting equipment is not that hard especially post 911. All you need to do is be willing to write some grant applicaitons. My old department got FLIR units and a bunch of other expensive items. So getting rifles would be cake. There is also a military give away program. Poor departments can piggy back dod programs and get M9's and surplus M16's.

Training is essential but you need to have the right tools. A highpoint carbine is about useless. I can think of a lot of guns I would rather have than a Highpoint. Heck even a plain jane 870 with rifle sights is far better.
Pat
 
If your so worried about a pistol caliber pop gun, then what about the pop guns that they carry in their holsters. Mabee we should arm everyone with 454 Casulls so we can be sure that they are not undergunned by some baddie. Cops where armed with 38 Specials for decades and it worked very well. If you are doing an entry for serving a warrant then call up the few guys that have ARs in their trunk or get them from the station if you insist on using a rifle in an encosed space without hearing protection.

When did a cop need to take a 200 yard shot? Anything that far away was probably taken care of with a police sniper. What if instead of Hi-Points they got to be issued MP5's. Do you hate using a pistol caliber carbine or are you hating Hi-Points. If we want bang for the buck, then issue them AKs chambered in .223. (The Saiga would work very well) Just put on a better rear sight or a red dot scope and you are good to go. All the advantages of an AR with the economy of an AK.
 
There are so many falsehoods in your post let me break them down one at a time.
QUOTE
If your so worried about a pistol caliber pop gun, then what about the pop guns that they carry in their holsters. Mabee we should arm everyone with 454 Casulls so we can be sure that they are not undergunned by some baddie. Cops where armed with 38 Specials for decades and it worked very well.
END QUOTE

We carry handguns because their convient. If you could get a holster for an AR15 I would be all for it. Handguns are carried just in case. If you expect trouble you get a long gun. At my last department when I was a sergeant I told my guys if you get a gun call and you show up with just your pistol your getting written up. You pull out rifles and shotguns for gun calls. Handguns are there for the times when you have no warning. As for 38 specials. We did fine with them until crime started to go up. 38's are fine if you never get into a gun fight. But as the criminals armed up so did the police.

QUOTE
If you are doing an entry for serving a warrant then call up the few guys that have ARs in their trunk or get them from the station if you insist on using a rifle in an encosed space without hearing protection.
END QUOTE

Actually all officers need longguns with them and not in the trunk. More cops die in traffic stops than any other call. Felony stops made having a long gun up front in a rack immediately available a necessity. You don't have any concept of what police work is about. We don't have a lot of warning when things go bad like active shooters in schools. You need to have your long gun with you and everyone needs one. As for hearing protection its a good idea. I carry electronic peltors in my patrol bag. If your department can afford it suppressors are a great idea.

QUOTE
When did a cop need to take a 200 yard shot? Anything that far away was probably taken care of with a police sniper. What if instead of Hi-Points they got to be issued MP5's. Do you hate using a pistol caliber carbine or are you hating Hi-Points.
END QUOTE

Actually active shooters have the potential for needing that kind of accuracy. The longest police sniper shot was taken at just over 400 yards in Central Park in New York. There are situations where more range is needed such as rural cops. I worked in rural Alaska for a while and the possibility of a long shot was not all that far off. Also the 223 is not just superior for range but for stopping power. The 223 has enough energy to tear tissue from its stretch cavity and bullet frags. As a rifle round it drops people far faster than any convential service pistol round. The only thing better would be a 308 or 12 gauge slugs. .223's are also safer for use inside because they actually have less chance of overpenetrating common homes than your pistol rounds do. As for MP5's their fun but I would rather have an M4 any day. All a subgun is is a fast firing accurate handgun. Most SWAT teams and the spec opps community has gone toward 223 carbines that are either full or semi auto. I hate pistol caliber carbines and Highpoints.

QUOTE
If we want bang for the buck, then issue them AKs chambered in .223. (The Saiga would work very well) Just put on a better rear sight or a red dot scope and you are good to go. All the advantages of an AR with the economy of an AK.
END QUOTE

AK's have terrible sights, crappy safety's and generally poor ergonomics. And then their is the political factor. No chief of city council is going to let its officers be issued AK 47's. Also 223 Ak's are not very reliable. They are plagued with problems. Its best to stick with the 7.62x39 or the 5.45x39 in an AK.

AR's are about the best game in the patrol rifle town. Also the 600 to 800 we spend on the rifles is small compared to other costs that its trival. Your not saving a lot of money by denying officers a life saving tool.
Pat
 
355sigfan, you seem to be the biggest opponent of the hipoint on this thread. I mean no disrespect and have no intentions to challenge your experiences as a LEO but I do have a couple of questions for you.

Is your argument with pistol caliber carbines in general or just the HP? It seems if you just don't like pistol cal. carbines you spend a lot of time calling the HP a pos. Have you ever used a HP carbine more than just looking down your nose at it? Yes HP is at the bottom of the food chain and I wouldn't own one of their pistols, but the carbine is a different breed.

I have been to the range with both the pistol and the carbine and was quite impressed with the carbine. They were both given to my father and he not being a gun guy handed them over to me to try out. This was early in the development of the carbine and we were told to run the crap out of it and report back. Well, after @3k rounds only cleaning the bore and ZERO malfunctions I handed it back with high praise. Can't say the same for the pistol but that's another topic.

Buy one, shoot the crap out of it and if you're not convinced then call it a POS. Without firsthand experience, your opinion means squat. No one is suggesting you replace your AR with a HP, but for it's intended purpose I couldn't find a flaw besides being ugly.
 
QUOTE
Is your argument with pistol caliber carbines in general or just the HP? It seems if you just don't like pistol cal. carbines you spend a lot of time calling the HP a pos. Have you ever used a HP carbine more than just looking down your nose at it? Yes HP is at the bottom of the food chain and I wouldn't own one of their pistols, but the carbine is a different breed
END QUOTE

My argument is with both pistol caliber carbines and the highpoint. Pistol caliber carbines have no use outside of cowboy action shooting. They lack stopping power when compared to rifles and shotguns, they lack range, they over penetrate in homes compared to 223 carbines loaded with softpoints. Put simply they don't do anything well. My problem with high point is I have seen their pistols jam shatter and break. Its pot metal what can you expect from pot metal. The idea of having a leo use a highpoint angers me to no end. Its bad enough we have to take the lowest bidder. But we should not have to take this crap. No one should. There are so many better home defense options out there than the highpoint carbine.
Pat
 
No sense trying to argue with a fanatic. A closed mind can be very comforting to some people.
 
Gentlemen, chill out.

Back to the initial post, I spoke with a friend in ICE last night. He was really doubtful, and had never seen a high point in use anywhere in DHS. But like he said, Homeland Security is a big place.

Whether or not it is a decent, reliable weapon is besides the point, I'm just doubtful that DHS has ever used them in any sort of official capacity.
 
No chief of city council is going to let its officers be issued AK 47's.

How about a County Sheriff? Last I knew Marshall county here in NE Alabama issued each deputy an AK47 and 5 mags for duty use. May not be current, but I remember the news story a few years ago.

I would also suggest that a head shot from a pistol-caliber carbine@30yds+(difficult, though not impossible with a handgun) will "disorient" a BG enough that he will stop, or at least slow, whatever activity caused him to be shot in the first place.
 
Last edited:
I have two HP carbines one in 9mm (995) and 40S&W (4095).

I have 2000 rounds through my 40 and it feeds and fires everything I have loaded. I have 300 rounds through my 9 and it has been very good.

I just back from the 50 yard indoor range with my 9. 100 rounds later 70 with iron sights and 30 with a scope some at 25 and 50 yards. You can cover your hand over 10 round at 25 yards and a small plate at 50 yards with iron sights. With the scope I can shoot 1 inch groups with 10 rounds at 25 yards and 3 inch groups with 10 rounds at 50 yards.

So, very easy to shoot, accurate out to 100-150 yards with iron sights, 100% reliable, lite, handy and can be used by almost anyone. I use my 40 as my HD gun and 9 as my wifes HD gun.

If I want to shoot further than that, I would use my 308! ;)
 
I just had my Hi-Point out for a second range trip. 50 flawless rounds of Winchester Silvertip Hollowpoints. That said, I still think the lousy magazines would be the primary culprit in any reliabily problems with this firearm. You have to make sure that the rounds are set in the magazine correctly before you place the magazine in the gun. If the front of the top round is pointed down instead of the correct (pointing up) position, the bolt will not feed the first round into the magazine. As long as you push down on the rear of the top round to make sure it is seated correctly, they feed fine. I just wonder if the rounds could move around in a loaded magazine (but not chambered) while carrying the gun. If so, when you go to cycle the first round it could hang up. Has anyone found this to be true? Based on this, I probably would opt for the Hi-Point as a self-defense firearm only if there were no better choices. I would probably go with my Mossberg, Sub 2000 with Glock mags, or the SKS/AK (I don't have any AR types) before using the Hi-Point. Still, if the Hi-Point is what you have, I don't think you should feel poorly armed in a self-defense situation. I wouldn't hesitate at all with recommending the Hi-Point carbine if it were not for my perception that the magazines are not up to par with the rest of the gun. Also it would have to prove that the build quality is durable and reliable in the long run (at least 500 to 1000 rounds), before it would be used as a SD firearm.
 
Certain posts on this thread once again validate my statement I've made before, that I feel that many police precincts need to be reminded of one thing.

THEY are NOT SOLDIERS. They ARE NOT military.

They are...gasp...CIVILIANS with a JOB.


When the opposite happens, that's when you get things like an unarmed bookie popped in the head and killed, or an old lady in New Orleans slammed against the wall and her shoulder broken. (See this month's NRA magazine).

I'm getting pretty tired of cops thinking they're soldiers when they don't need to be..and thinking they're Army Rangers without the training or discipline. Posse comitatus protects us from the soldiers being police. We don't need the police to turn from keepers of the peace into a domestic combat force that lacks the training of real soldiers. The very idea that someone thinks that every cop, not just specialized, trained SWAT, needs an AR scares the hell out of me. We have enough NDs as is with just Glocks and such, and enough cops out there who have lousy trigger discipline and who wave their guns around when they shouldn't. A ND with an AR could kill someone several houses away, easily. SOLDIERS who are issued them train and train and train, knowing every single inch of it backwards and forward. Beat cops don't.

You sign up to be a cop to keep the peace and protect the citizens from harm. If you're more concerned about carrying an AR and being all Tacticool in response to every unwarranted situation...you are forgetting that you are still a CIVILIAN. Do the citizens a favor. Quit and join the military. You'd be far more useful shooting at insurgents in Iraq than slamming helpless old ladies in American towns into walls.
 
WOAH! 355Sigfan You are a LEO and yet you believe that there is such a thing as stopping power
__________________
END QUOTE

No matter which ballistic expert you pick, Fackler or Marshall all agree rifles are far more effective and ending fights than pistols. Stopping power is a term used to describe this effectiveness. With pistols stopping power does not really exist. With rifles and shotguns it does.
As for the civilian comment. Civilian is defined as a person who is not a member of the military or POLICE. Look it up. And we put our lives on the line daily in the war on crime. In this war on terror cops died in 911 well before any soldiers did. As for training. I would put my training up against any military members short of SF. Who did the spec opps community turn to when they needed to brush up on their urban combat skills. Yep Swat teams like LAPD and the FBI's HRT team. I am tired of people like you who somehow think getting shot inside the country as a leo is less dangerious than getting shot as a soldier overseas. We both have our jobs to do. I work with a lot of former military folks and their good people. But their training is usually not quite up to leo standards unless they were former SF. I ran a Captain in the Army through our pistol qual and he failed miserably. Yet he is an expert in the army with the M9. Talk about lower standards.

Pat
 
The rifles are used quite a bit every time you do an entry or felony stop.
About the only times I do not carry, in my hands no less, an M4 with me is in detention. All of our M4s are checked out daily, on every shift, and more are on the way.
 
As to the training of "all" police officers...:

-----------------------------------
" NEW ORLEANS, Dec. 14 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A New Orleans woman is recovering from surgery this week from injuries resulting from when she was roughed-up by authorities who forced her to leave her home a week after Hurricane Katrina. Patricia Konie, 58, has filed a Federal lawsuit over the injuries and other violations of civil rights.

Konie was greeting a reporter and photographer from a San Francisco TV station and a journalist from the London Times when police unexpectedly entered her home. When she refused to leave as ordered, they confiscated a firearm used for defense and according to Konie, "slammed" her to the ground, both displacing and fracturing her left shoulder.

"
-------------------------------------

(Washington Post)
On Jan. 24, a SWAT team in Fairfax shot and killed Salvatore J. Culosi Jr., an optometrist who was under investigation for gambling. According to a Jan. 26 front-page story in The Post, Culosi had emerged from his home to meet an undercover officer when a police tactical unit swarmed around him. An officer's gun discharged, killing the suspect. Culosi, police said, was unarmed and had displayed no threatening behavior.

--------------------------------------------

NEW YORK - In a tragic case of mistaken identity, police shot and critically wounded an off-duty officer as he pointed a gun at a suspect outside a fast food restaurant early Saturday, authorities said.
......
He apparently subdued one of the suspects, and when a patrol car arrived, was pointing his gun at a man on the ground.

One of the two officers, apparently believing Hernandez was about to shoot,in the car opened fire, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said.

--------------------------------------------

Should some cops have ARs, those who are SWAT or trained for and deployed to SPECIFIC situtations? Yes. Do I feel comfortable with ALL beat cops taking combat weapons into "any" possible felony situation, with things like this happening? HELL NO!
 
Cops screw up. What about the abuse of prisoners by the military in Cuba. Its real professional to walk prisoners around like dogs and make them commit sex acts with each other. People in glass houses should not throw stones. There are good and bad people in the military and in the police force.

QUOTE
Should some cops have ARs, those who are SWAT or trained for and deployed to SPECIFIC situtations? Yes. Do I feel comfortable with ALL beat cops taking combat weapons into "any" possible felony situation, with things like this happening? HELL NO!
END QUOTE

I don't care what your comfortable with. As an officer who is also an instructor. I am very confident in those I have trained and in their ability to handle a AR. Your lack of knowlege on this matter is apparent. 223 carbines are good patrol level tools. Their better than the other alternatives. For instance shotguns spray pellets out that pose more of a liability risk if you should miss than a single 223 round. 223 rounds are less likely to over penetrate a building or a person who is shot causing harm to innocent bystanders. The AR15 in its semi auto form is perfect for the average patrol officer. Were not talking full auto here. SWAT teams should have full auto and other toys.

Its very obvious you have had your path cross with leo's and now have an ax to grind. Just obey the law and you will be fine.

Pat
 
>>Its very obvious you have had your path cross with leo's and now have an ax to grind. Just obey the law and you will be fine.

On the contrary. I haven't. I just don't ever want to find myself in a situation where myself or someone I care about is at risk when someone who has NOT had sufficient training has a weapon of that sort when on a response in a first-world nation's cities and suburbs. I'd always thought "the police" were the men and women in blue and keepers of the peace, not shouting quasi-soldiers who dressed up in tactical-this-and-that and urban camo to respond to things like an unarmed bookie's questioning. As I pointed in that example:

"Culosi had emerged from his home to meet an undercover officer when a police tactical unit swarmed around him." - Do you REALLY think that was the appropriate force level for that situation? Especially since someone was so badly trained that they did a ND and killed the guy? If _I_ did a "screw up" like that, it'd be called "murder" or "manslaughter". He obeyed the law. He came out. He's dead.

Yes, I'm sure you train YOUR officers quite well, but there are a lot of PDs who do NOT..just look at how many "glock legs" there have been, all NDs, and how many other NDs. Look at the optometrist who got killed, there.

"Cops screw up" isn't good enough for me. If you can guarantee that ALL officers who are equipped with ARs and the like have an expert level of training, fine. But otherwise, keepers of the peace have done just fine for the better part of the century with pistols and a cruiser shotgun...and to me, a pistol-caliber carbine would be ideal for someone who might be just fine with a pistol, but unexpectedly needs a little longer range.

And it just seems like "obey the law and you'll be fine" tends to go out the window when you've got a bunch of amped-up people with rifles and tac gear responding to a situtation where that level of force isn't warranted, especially when those muzzles are pointed at people in the context of giving orders, rather than at clear threats. It would seem to me, just based on common sense and human psychology, that that'd scare noncombatants into a subconcious fight-or-flight response and escalate the situation, and is more likely than not to result in the violation of some law-abiding citizen's rights by someone with more adrenaline than training.

A NY cop got shot with no questions asked, first, for covering a suspect with his weapon as they arrived. What would happen if I was covering a criminal who had tried to kill someone, but they'd dropped their weapon and laid down..and though I'd called the police or asked someone to, I didn't see them arrive. I'd always thought that they'd yell to drop the weapon, which of course I would, and appear nonthreatening. But if they shoot first without asking? I was still obeying the law, but someone got jumpy.

"Cops screw up" isn't much consolation.
 
I've been considering getting one of the High Point carbines which is why I even bothered to read this thread in the first place. So, my assessment is (1) there is only one High Point hater who uses every opportunity to refer to them as POS's and pop guns. (2) Said Hater, in his vast experience and knowledge, has been everywhere, seen and done everything, better than everyone else ( they call that one up-manship), is always going to have an opinion contrary to everyone but himself.
Final results, by shear numbers the Lovers beat the Haters. I'm getting the High Point carbine.:neener:
 
Cops make mistakes soldiers do too. Life goes on. Having an AR15 does not make a cop more dangerious than one with a pistol caliber pop gun if he messes up.

A semi auto 223 is about an ideal police firearm. Its easy to shoot well with minimal training. It has low risk of overpenetration. Its a very versatile firearm in that its good from point blank range like when doing entries to over 300 or more yards when doing perimeter work.

When it comes to ND's Not picking on the military but I know there are more ND's with servicemen and women than with police officers. Even on the per capita level. The reason is your dealing with a lot younger group in the military as a whole with less responsibility and life experience. Most police officers start out at at least 21 more often its 25 or so. A lot are former military or at the very least have been to college and have worked a regular job for a while prior to becoming an officer. I have seen far worse gun handling from GI's on the local gun range than I have from the worst officers.

If we can trust 18 year old kids with full auto M4's with 9 weeks of basic training. We can definately trust officers who are at least 21, with training academies from 16 weeks to 6 months long. The officers are also required to qualify at least twice a year and most departments require more.

When it comes to ND's again the military does not even trust their MP's to carry their M9's with a chambered round.

Your argument does not hold water. You have a low opinion of all police based on the few who have made some serious mistakes. Well people make mistakes cops and soldiers. That does not mean we disarm either.
Pat
 
Final results, by shear numbers the Lovers beat the Haters. I'm getting the High Point carbine.

Fire4effect. Good choice and choose the caliber based on what you use most or carry as a pair(handgun & carbine) if needed.

Let us know how you like it. :)
 
I own a 995 in 9mm and have for several years. As with most others, I find it reliable, accurate, and handy. Are there better rifles out there? Of course there are. A lot of them. But as with most things you have to have reasonable expectation about what it is and what it does.

I wouldn't try to hunt bear with an AR in .223 and I wouldn't try to clear a house with a full sized M1A. The best thing the carbine has going for it is that it's cheap and handy. Some people don't have a ton of money to spend on a gun and ammo and if money is tight this might fill the ticket. Sure, another option would be an SKS but some people might not want the size and weight. Some people may want a magazine fed weapon. Whatever. Some people just like the way it shoots.

Bottom line to me is this weapon can serve a useful purpose for those who find money tight. I wouldn't expect law enforcement to use it any more than I would expect them to use any pistol caliber carbine. But as an inexpensive "homeland defense rifle" I think it would work just fine. I sure wouldn't want to get into a firefight with someone using one.
 
We can definately trust officers who are at least 21, with training academies from 16 weeks to 6 months long. The officers are also required to qualify at least twice a year and most departments require more.

I kinda hate to jump in here, but I'm friends with our local PD firearms training officer. I know his skill level, and his committment to training his officers. There are some officers that you cannot pass this knowledge to, no matter how good a trainer you are. There a gun people (like on this forum) who will go the extra mile and train at their own expense. They know skill at weapons may save their or someones' lives some day. Then there are those who only shoot qualification because the department requires them to to keep their job. These individuals are there just to bring home a check every week, and it just so happens carrying a gun and occasionally qualifiying with it is part of that job.

I've watched these shoot their qualification(required every 4 months) and barely pass, and it isn't that hard a course(I've shot 98-99% on it, cold, with a brand new gun and holster). Then they clean the guns, reload, and hit the street, to protect and serve, after barely passing the minimum score. There are great officers out there, but I'm afraid there are, like everywhere else in life, those that are content "to just get by".

355Sig, I commend your level of commitment and training, but even you probably will admit there are officers you work with that you don't feel should have a gun on the street(You won't admit it on a public forum, but in the back of your mind, maybe...).
 
355Sig, I commend your level of commitment and training, but even you probably will admit there are officers you work with that you don't feel should have a gun on the street(You won't admit it on a public forum, but in the back of your mind, maybe...).
END QUOTE

There are some bad officers but we have strict policys on those that can not shoot acceptably. They fail the first time its desk duty. They get one week to qual. If they fail at the end of the week its suspension then one last try when their back off. If they fail then its termination.

But even with bad officers. They should have AR15's. Even the worst officers can pass the patrol rifle qualification. The reason is the guns are so easy to shoot well vs the shotgun and the handgun. The bad officers are the ones that need a good patrol rifle the most.

And everything that applies to cops applies to soldiers. Remember the group with Jessica Lynch that did not maintain their weapons and found themselves in a world of trouble. Every group of people will have its slugs. The 223 carbine is a great tool for law enforcement. In fact it suits us better than the military. The military could benefit from a round with a bit more penetration against hard targets and more long range potential than the 5.56.
Pat
 
I think they could definitely have a place for LE. Compact light and reasonably accurate. And you DO get more punch outa the long carbine barrel.

Oh, BTW, mine has over 5000 rounds through it...everything from cheapo Wolf and Blazer to +P+...No malfunctions, ever. None. Nada. Zip. And I rarely clean it, besides a quick swab down the barrel. I've never actually dissasembled it for cleaning.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top