Honestly Evaluating Load Accuracy

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Joe Texas

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44C70EA5-C4F5-426B-BDB0-98C9A83D14EE.jpeg There have been volumes written on this subject. I don’t pretend to have anything new to add except my recent experience testing a couple of my pet loads. Sometimes anecdotal evidence is a valuable aid in understanding things. I hope my findings and thoughts on the subject will at least provoke some discussion that ends up helping someone.

We all want our load development to answer the same basic questions:
• Is my load accurate?
• Will it perform adequately for its intended application?

I’ve been thinking about those two questions a lot lately regarding some loads I’ve worked up. They inspired another important question:
• How do I define accuracy?

How one answers that question has implications for almost every other part of their handloading and testing routine. Different applications have different accuracy requirements. Each shooter determines for himself what “accuracy” means for his or her intended use. “Good enough” for hunting is usually going to be considered horrible by a benchrest shooter. A guy with a $6000 custom rig will have different expectations than the guy with an entry level scoped combo. Accuracy is defined relative to the purpose and sometimes the budget of the shooter.

My personal goal was to be able to find a load for each of my stock Savage barrels (.308 and .223) that would be capable of .5” five-shot groups @ 100 yards. They must always print less than 1” for 5 rounds in calm conditions.

I have worked up a load in each caliber that I thought would meet those requirements. Both printed half MOA 5-shot groups during load development. Both showed more than adequate muzzle velocities and boast single-digit standard deviations. I was proud of them and had confidence that my goal was successfully realized.....Until I shot multiple 5 round groups with them.

Suddenly, my sub MOA awesome creations (with target pics to prove it) were averaging 1.14” and 1.15” respectively over 8-10 five round groups. Each load had a group that measured 1.5”!

What happened to my loads? Did I just get lucky during load development? Was it shooter error? Did I get sloppy during brass prep or while assembling the rounds? All of these things are possible I guess but not likely. I was shooting pretty much the same as I always do. My reloading process didn’t change. What happened then?

Math happened. Probability happened. Reality happened.

When I chose the best powder charge for each of these loads, I picked the smallest 5 shot group. I checked the standard deviation. I eliminated charges with high SDs or excessive vertical stringing. The subsequent assembled rounds with the winning charge and COL from my ladder tests still have small SDs. The groups just got bigger. Sometimes. At least it happened often enough to change what I had thought of as a .5” inch load into a 1.15” inch load.

In reality, I don’t believe anything changed but the sample size. I believe I got excited about a couple of tight groups and declared them sub moa. I now believe I need to reevaluate what “sub moa” means.

Are my loads CAPABLE of printing tight groups? Absolutely. Will they do it every time? Apparently not.

My OCD kicked in hard enough to order a new Select Match barrel for one of these guns. My accuracy standards haven’t changed. How I define and evaluate accuracy has changed.

So, the next time you see a picture of someone’s “one ragged hole” 3 or 5 round group, congratulate them. Then ask ‘em if they can repeat that group 10 times in a row. If they can, they have something. I bet that 98% of those pics represent the smallest group that combo was capable of. I know I am guilty of doing the same thing. I bet that if enough rounds were fired to let math really happen to that load test the resulting targets would tell a different, more honest story.

Just my two cents. Does anyone want to tell me where I’m wrong?
 
Been there done that.

I have refined my testing to increase round count and retest multiple time confirming the load. A lot of times I have to back up other times I go forward. One thing I have started doing is using my crony for all my shooting. This sometimes will show a round that was way off what it should be. I have been burned several times by using a powder that has a big temp swing. So I'm more selective on the powders I choose.
 
Some days I just shoot better than on other days with ammo from the same batch from the same rifle. I've had days when everything went well, other days when I just stopped shooting. And I think 1/2" five shot groups consistently is unrealistic, even unnecessary. My goal is 1 MOA consistently. Maybe not every single time, but the majority of the time and if not MOA close. I'd be perfectly content with the loads you have.

I bet that 98% of those pics represent the smallest group that combo was capable of.

True, but guys don't post photos of every game animal they kill or fish they catch either, only the ones worthy of bragging about. It's the same with shooting targets, when we do well we show it off. I don't expect every one to believe I do it every time.

I stopped chasing 1/2 MOA after reading the article that goes with this graphic. I occasionally get some of those 1/2" MOA or even smaller groups and when I do I take a photo of it. But realistically the probability of making hits at longer ranges with a 1/2 MOA rifle just isn't that much better than with a 1 MOA rifle. Or even a 1.15 MOA rifle. Instead of burning powder and wasting bullets developing loads I've started shooting more at targets at longer ranges with the loads I have.

how-much-does-rifle-group-size-matter11.jpg
 
My suggestion is to pick one of the two commonly accepted load development methods, ladder or OCW, and follow them.

Neither of them are looking for the smallest 5 shot group to determine optimal powder charge. What they both do it look for the least amount of vertical deviation. The reason is obvious when you look at the diagram @jmr40 posted above

Loading up some incrementally increasing charge weights and shooting them to see what makes the smallest group is probably good enough for a hunting load, but it may not be enough to determine the best load.

The process I use involves 3 steps in sequence:

1. a variation of the OCW method at 100 to determine a load that produces the least amount of vertical across adjacent charge weights (the node)
2. A seating depth test that results in the tightest group
3. A primer test to pick the one that has the least amount of vertical

I’ll take the winning load from above and shoot 20 at 500 yards to validate and I’m done. Takes ~70 rounds
 
I appreciate all the useful comments on this thread.

EDIT ADD: I have some questions that might affect the plan below. Is there always a correlation between velocity SD and vertical POI spread? Are there other causes of vertical stringing beside velocity and shooter error?

Here’s my plan for load development for my new 1:8 .223 barrel: It will require 75 rounds each with two powders + 50 rounds of confirmation testing for a total of 200. I will clean the barrel frequently and systematically to facilitate “break in”. All groups will be shot at 100 yards.

69 grain SMK over N135 and Varget in Lapua brass with FGMM primers.

Why those components?
• I’m only punching holes in paper at no more than 200 yards. That bullet has shot well from a lot of guns. Its weight is a good middle of the road option for that distance for a 1:8 twist.I already have a couple hundred of them.
• Lapua is said to be the most consistent and longest lasting brass.
• Federal Match primers have won every test I’ve conducted in the past.
• Both N135 and Varget have produced low standard deviations for me with that bullet. Plus, I have it on hand.

Out of my stock Savage barrel, 22.9 grains N135 and 24.5 grains of Varget gave low SD’s. Those charges are as good a place to start as any without testing the whole published data range.

25 rounds initial charge ladder.
N135 - 22.4, 22.7, 23, 23.3, 23.6 (5 rounds each charge) at .025 off lands w/new brass.

25 rounds initial charge ladder.
Varget - 24.3, 24.6, 24.9, 25.2, 25.5 (5 rounds each) at .025 off lands w/new brass.

50 rounds seating depth test
.005 - .050 (5 rounds each in .005 increments) w/new brass using lowest SD N135 charge. (I have more VV than Varget.)

25 rounds refine powder charge test.
Lowest SD charge N135 @ best seating depth
.1 and .2 above and .1 and .2 below (5 rounds each) w/fire-formed, neck-sized brass

25 rounds refine powder charge test.
Same as above with lowest SD Varget charge as baseline.


Evaluation - 50 rounds
5 groups of 5 with best load with each powder in neck-sized brass
Looking for:
• Smallest group (old habits and pride die hard)
• Average group size. (NRA standard test?)
• Average point on x and y axis (more precise measurement?)
• Aggregate group size (worst case scenario?)
• Center of aggregate group (best way to sight in?)
• Largest deviation from center on x and y axis (furthest possible miss?)
• Standard deviation from center on x and y axis (average miss from POA?)

Goal:
• Furthest deviation from center < 1”
• Aggregate 25 round group size < 1”

To me, that would be a true < 1 MOA load. Maybe it’s a fantasy. I know it happens in benchrest competitions. Maybe I can get close.

Any constructive suggestions I should consider would be appreciated.
 
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[QUOTE from jmr40 “True, but guys don't post photos of every game animal they kill or fish they catch either, only the ones worthy of bragging about. It's the same with shooting targets, when we do well we show it off. I don't expect every one to believe I do it every time......I occasionally get some of those 1/2" MOA or even smaller groups and when I do I take a photo of it.

@jmr40 - I guess I did sound critical with my statement about pics of small groups. My phone is full of pics of tight groups (and big fish).I also am aware of the old saying about finger-pointing. “When I point a finger at someone there’s three more pointing back at me.” I’m way too guilty to criticize someone else. That was kind of my whole point. I’ve been bragging about having success with my hand loads by showing off my best groups.

Thanks for that graphic. It was a hugely instructive visual aid.
 
According to the article I posted the link to, the aggregate group size is the most accurate indication of the load's accuracy.

Agreed. It is at least an expression of the range of possible point of impacts resulting from the range of conditions and influences in that shooting session, including the shooter.

I’m starting to think of “accuracy” more as an expression of probabilities - almost like shooting free throws in basketball. It’s not a perfect correlation but it makes sense to me. The rim is a circle of a known size. What % of my shots will go in that circle? If the answer is > 90%, I’m doing pretty well. The analogy breaks down because a free-throw is a pass/fail shot. An airball miss doesn’t cost anything more than a close miss except maybe style points.

For me, shooting is a hobby that has no purpose beyond striving for smaller groups. It’s kinda all about style points. I forget sometimes that guns are a tool for hunting and/or self-defense, The goal is to stop the animal or threat before it runs away, I get hurt, or I run out of ammo. If I’m a 90% shooter, that one in ten miss might cost me. It won’t matter how close of a miss it was. What constitutes a miss in a hunting or SD situation though is usually a little bigger mistake than the 1/2” or so that I obsess over. It’s all relative to the application I guess.
 
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I took me quite a while to accept that consistency was more contingent upon my ability to shoot that just a matter of finding the perfect load. Of course, some loads were ~consistently~ better than others, but I seem to have reached a 'plateau' of sort's on my journey to 100% repeatability.

I'm getting closer, but I'm not there yet.

Oh Darn, more practice! LOL!!!
 
Some days I just shoot better than on other days with ammo from the same batch from the same rifle. I've had days when everything went well, other days when I just stopped shooting. And I think 1/2" five shot groups consistently is unrealistic, even unnecessary. My goal is 1 MOA consistently. Maybe not every single time, but the majority of the time and if not MOA close. I'd be perfectly content with the loads you have.



True, but guys don't post photos of every game animal they kill or fish they catch either, only the ones worthy of bragging about. It's the same with shooting targets, when we do well we show it off. I don't expect every one to believe I do it every time.

I stopped chasing 1/2 MOA after reading the article that goes with this graphic. I occasionally get some of those 1/2" MOA or even smaller groups and when I do I take a photo of it. But realistically the probability of making hits at longer ranges with a 1/2 MOA rifle just isn't that much better than with a 1 MOA rifle. Or even a 1.15 MOA rifle. Instead of burning powder and wasting bullets developing loads I've started shooting more at targets at longer ranges with the loads I have.

View attachment 899209
If it shoots around 3” at 300 yds., load em up and go shoot! If you are like me with limited time to apply, Your time on the trigger in various conditions will yield you more real time results than chasing tiny groups. The gun can shoot 1 hole groups, but if you can’t tell if the wind out there is 4 or 8 mph, you could miss by 15”!
 
Some shooting days are better than others. The only real way to know of a load’s consistency is to put the rifle into a vice and take out the human factor.

Going back to the drawing board on a load because it was shooting one way one day and then another is the last thing I do.

I don’t know about the VV powder but have had lots of experience with Varget in both .223 and .308 and have found it to be pretty darned consistent.

Have you looked for other possible causes? If I experienced something similar, I’d first run some copper solvent down the bore and make sure that it isn’t fouled.

You’re shooting a couple of bone stock rifles. Did you lap the barrels after you got them? Copper fouling is one of the reasons that I don’t buy rifles off of the shelf anymore. Getting a barrel With a bore that is glass smooth is not very common.

.223 and .308 are a couple of rounds that shouldn’t have you tearing your hair out trying to find a sub moa load for them.

I never did anything extravagant. Federal BR primers. Varget or Reloader 15 powder. Winchester brass. I was always comfortable with the loads and when things were off, I always assumed it was me.

I know that things can get pretty technical in the benchrest world, but you’re trying to have fun at 200 yards. I think you’re over thinking it. Put together more of that perfect load you came up with and go back out. You were probably just having a bad day. Let someone else shoot your rifle too.
 
Quote from TonyAngel - “You’re shooting a couple of bone stock rifles. Did you lap the barrels after you got them? Copper fouling is one of the reasons that I don’t buy rifles off of the shelf anymore. Getting a barrel With a bore that is glass smooth is not very common.”END QUOTE

The actions and barrels are stock with about 850 rounds through each. They are both in unbedded Boyd’s thumbhole varmit stocks. I have a 26” Shilen Select Match grade .223 barrel with a Wylde chamber and a 1:8 twist on the way. If all goes well with it I’ll change the .308 barrel next.

I cleaned after each round for first 10 rounds.
Then after each of first ten 3 round groups.
Then after each of first 10 five shot groups.
Then after each 30-50 rounds. I use copper solvent about every 100 rounds. Is that considered lapping?

Quote from Tony Angel - “.223 and .308 are a couple of rounds that shouldn’t have you tearing your hair out trying to find a sub moa load for them.END QUOTE

Yeah, I’m not necessarily tearing my hair out, just facing mathematical/statistical reality regarding how reliable a sample size of a single five shot group really is.

So, you’ve taken your .223 and .308 loads and shot five or ten 5 round groups with them at 100 yards and found the average of all ten groups was less than an inch? If not, what do you do to determine the accuracy of your loads or evaluate your marksmanship?

I’ve shot many 5 round groups at 100 yards where 4 of them were practically in the same 1/4” hole and one was off by almost an inch. Is that a 1/4” group with a “flyer” or a 1” group in your estimation?

I only ask because the whole point of this thread was to examine what we mean by accuracy and to get at the truth behind some of my own accuracy claims based on a relatively small sample size.

Golfers often record a lower score than they earned because of a shot or two that “didn’t count” for whatever reason. I’m learning that the accuracy claims found in gun reviews and in internet forums may not be based on statistically valid sample sizes. Such claims almost always involve a desire to make a product or a person look good. Sometimes, they can be plain dishonest. For example, the pic in my original post was of the first 10 rounds from my .308, each with a cold, clean barrel during break in. Those ten shots were made at my indoor range at 25 yards making that group practically meaningless. The pic sure is impressive though.

Even before getting into shooting and hand-loading I realized my own human tendency to want to present information in a way that makes me look good. It’s easy to find ways to justify a little dishonesty in ourselves. It’s even easier to criticize others for stretching the truth to make themselves look good in the exact same way we do. The internet only enables and intensifies some of our less desirable tendencies.

I’m just trying to do the hard thing and look at my shooting honestly and objectively. It’s easy enough to break out a bunch of pics of one hole groups like the one in my original post and brag about my loads or marksmanship while looking down on others who admit when they struggle. It’s quite another thing to admit that my shooting and my loads just ain’t as good as I thought they were.

The alcoholics say that the first step to solving a problem is admitting there is one.
 
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Hand lapping a barrel is NOT the same as cleaning it. Your using a cleaning agent to clean the barrel. Lapping a barrel is using a polishing compound to polish/smooth out all of the highs to very fine finish.

If you have a crony use it all the time your practicing. It will tell you if you had a round that was not equivalent to the others. Could be several things that caused it to be different. Some shooter error, others brass/bullet/load/run out/neck tension....... the list goes on. The main thing is if there consistent velocity they should have the same velocity/drop. Where if you missed the wind it has a normal tendency to move the bullets side to side which will open your group but your elevation should be very close.
 
6BAF134C-8429-41CD-9375-C539C0BE6850.jpeg Thanks for the article on practical handgun accuracy paxman. (I ain’t calling you lord. Lol)

For handguns, I usually use a homemade target with five 6” circles. I usually practice at 10 yards. I load five rounds and put one in each circle. I do this 10 or 20 times. I have about a 95% success rate with my carry gun (Sig P227 .45) if I wait to have a good sight picture. When I practice double-taps or really speed up, only about 80% of them are in the circles. The misses are almost always close though. I am by no stretch of the imagination precise with it. I don’t put a lot of effort into loading for it either. I am confident that I have enough practical accuracy with it that I would get at least a few hits with the 10+1 it holds. I am capable of more precise shooting with a couple of my revolvers that I do put some effort into loading for.

As far as practical rifle accuracy goes, I imagine that I could make a head or torso shot on a person or a boiler room shot on a deer every time within about 200 yards. I can’t remember missing bad enough to not accomplish that level of practical accuracy in a very long time. Of course, it’s difficult to account for the effects of stress or adrenaline in a critical shooting situation. Who knows? Maybe buck fever or fear would paralyze me. I doubt it though. Repetition is a formidable teacher. Practice and muscle memory have proven to be reliable preparation for me in both sports and in playing a musical instrument in situations where I was super nervous. I bet shooting is pretty similar.
 
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Hand lapping a barrel is NOT the same as cleaning it. Your using a cleaning agent to clean the barrel. Lapping a barrel is using a polishing compound to polish/smooth out all of the highs to very fine finish.

If you have a crony use it all the time your practicing. It will tell you if you had a round that was not equivalent to the others. Could be several things that caused it to be different. Some shooter error, others brass/bullet/load/run out/neck tension....... the list goes on. The main thing is if there consistent velocity they should have the same velocity/drop. Where if you missed the wind it has a normal tendency to move the bullets side to side which will open your group but your elevation should be very close.

Thanks for answering my question. I got that barrel “break-in” procedure from a combination of several sources including different barrel and gun manufacturers. They all seem to recommend a similar method. Here’s Shilen’s:

How should I break-in my new Shilen barrel?
Break-in procedures are as diverse as cleaning techniques. Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal. All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Here is our standard recommendation: Clean after each shot for the first 5 shots. The remainder of the break-in is to clean every 5 shots for the next 50 shots. During this time, don't just shoot bullets down the barrel during this 50 shot procedure. This is a great time to begin load development. Zero the scope over the first 5 shots, and start shooting for accuracy with 5-shot groups for the next 50 shots. Same thing applies to fire forming cases for improved or wildcat cartridges. Just firing rounds down a barrel to form brass without any regard to their accuracy is a mistake. It is a waste of time and barrel life. END QUOTE.

Most claim that the projectiles lap the barrel and cleaning in between the first shot or groups removes the powder and copper fouling to allow the bullets to smooth out the inconsistencies. They use the terms break-in and lapping interchangeably.I never saw a polishing compound recommended. They only mentioned a bore cleaner like Hoppes, a brush, and patches. I know my new Shilen Select Match grade barrel is supposed to come “hand lapped” and that break in is supposed to be lessened or unnecessary.

What compound do you recommend?
 
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This is what I use https://www.brownells.com/gun-clean...-cleaning-paste/j-b-bore-bright-prod1161.aspx

If your new barrel has already been lapped you should be good to go. I've had new barrels that copper fouled so bad you could see the copper color at the end of the barrel. I want buy those barrels ever again. They did shoot good but required a lot of extra work.

You clean the barrel first then make sure all your optics have covers protecting the lens. You don't want to take the chance of an abrasive getting on the lens.
I thin the paste with some oil before putting the patch on a push/pull Jag. This allows you to go both directions. Then clean the barrel good afterwards with your normal gun solvents. I believe Brownell has a short video on this.
 
View attachment 899142 There have been volumes written on this subject. I don’t pretend to have anything new to add except my recent experience testing a couple of my pet loads. Sometimes anecdotal evidence is a valuable aid in understanding things. I hope my findings and thoughts on the subject will at least provoke some discussion that ends up helping someone.

We all want our load development to answer the same basic questions:
• Is my load accurate?
• Will it perform adequately for its intended application?

I’ve been thinking about those two questions a lot lately regarding some loads I’ve worked up. They inspired another important question:
• How do I define accuracy?

How one answers that question has implications for almost every other part of their handloading and testing routine. Different applications have different accuracy requirements. Each shooter determines for himself what “accuracy” means for his or her intended use. “Good enough” for hunting is usually going to be considered horrible by a benchrest shooter. A guy with a $6000 custom rig will have different expectations than the guy with an entry level scoped combo. Accuracy is defined relative to the purpose and sometimes the budget of the shooter.

My personal goal was to be able to find a load for each of my stock Savage barrels (.308 and .223) that would be capable of .5” five-shot groups @ 100 yards. They must always print less than 1” for 5 rounds in calm conditions.

I have worked up a load in each caliber that I thought would meet those requirements. Both printed half MOA 5-shot groups during load development. Both showed more than adequate muzzle velocities and boast single-digit standard deviations. I was proud of them and had confidence that my goal was successfully realized.....Until I shot multiple 5 round groups with them.

Suddenly, my sub MOA awesome creations (with target pics to prove it) were averaging 1.14” and 1.15” respectively over 8-10 five round groups. Each load had a group that measured 1.5”!

What happened to my loads? Did I just get lucky during load development? Was it shooter error? Did I get sloppy during brass prep or while assembling the rounds? All of these things are possible I guess but not likely. I was shooting pretty much the same as I always do. My reloading process didn’t change. What happened then?

Math happened. Probability happened. Reality happened.

When I chose the best powder charge for each of these loads, I picked the smallest 5 shot group. I checked the standard deviation. I eliminated charges with high SDs or excessive vertical stringing. The subsequent assembled rounds with the winning charge and COL from my ladder tests still have small SDs. The groups just got bigger. Sometimes. At least it happened often enough to change what I had thought of as a .5” inch load into a 1.15” inch load.

In reality, I don’t believe anything changed but the sample size. I believe I got excited about a couple of tight groups and declared them sub moa. I now believe I need to reevaluate what “sub moa” means.

Are my loads CAPABLE of printing tight groups? Absolutely. Will they do it every time? Apparently not.

My OCD kicked in hard enough to order a new Select Match barrel for one of these guns. My accuracy standards haven’t changed. How I define and evaluate accuracy has changed.

So, the next time you see a picture of someone’s “one ragged hole” 3 or 5 round group, congratulate them. Then ask ‘em if they can repeat that group 10 times in a row. If they can, they have something. I bet that 98% of those pics represent the smallest group that combo was capable of. I know I am guilty of doing the same thing. I bet that if enough rounds were fired to let math really happen to that load test the resulting targets would tell a different, more honest story.

Just my two cents. Does anyone want to tell me where I’m wrong?
I’ve had loads shoot differently from day to day mostly due to wind/conditions or shooter ability some 300 yard load actually tripled at longer range (550 yards) So rather then jumping off the Tallahassee bridge I suggest reviewing your methods to ensure your satisfied, verification of scales and neck tension etc.
Always Always Always use wind flags even when there is the preverbial (no wind today ) there’s always wind and if ya don’t believe me light a camp fire...
Now get yourself a fresh battle cry, put yer helmet on and get back into the game .
Shoot Small y’all
J
 
I'm a hack shooter at best, I'm no expert, not by a country mile.

3 years ago I wanted to build a sub MOA, 100yd AR using what I considered to be "budget" parts. No use listing my build, but after the build and some tweeking, I found that my 18", 223 wylde 1:8 twist Odin works barrel really loved 69g SMK the best. The factory ammo that provided me with the most repeatable results was Outback Ammo.

Last year I began reloading and want to try my hand at my own sub MOA ammo. Using LaPua brass, 69g SMK projectiles, CCI BR4 primers...and Varget According to Sierra's own reloading guide, they states using 25.3g of Varget as their "accuracy load". I got wind that Outback Ammo uses Varget as well so I pulled one and if it isn't Varget, it sure as heck looks just like it. They use a 23.5g charge. Sierra lists the varget min as 23.3.

Anyway, after some tinkering and some work, I got the gun to shoot sub MOA...

...sometimes.

This is where the "I"m a hack" part comes in. My shooting is day to day. If I told you I can go out and shoot "sub MOA all day", I'd be a liar. Sometimes, it just isn't in the cards.My rifle can and will shoot sub MOA, a gun that I assembled and ammo I made. I'm happy with that. Attempting anything more and I'd feel like I'm chasing the dragon...
 

This is something I've long felt. I've been shooting for over 30 years now, including in the military. I've shot all kinds of rifles and handguns (I don't like shotguns) and I can say that my accuracy has always been day-to-day. I consider accuracy to be purpose driven and I often see so many chasing down ghosts that they may never catch. I've lost count a the times I've trained a new shooter and when I do that, I intentionally use a generic, white paper plate. After they shoot he plate a good 10 times, most will say "Man...I didn't shoot that very well, did I?" I'll go over, tear the plate from the backer, walk back to them and hold it over their chest and tell them "looks good to me".

I tried my hand at "match" 9mm ammo last year and my results? Yup...just like that article states, the more I shoot, the larger the group. I started with 10 round groups then opened that to 25 and I saw the same exact results. Things do settle down after 10 though and a pattern will eventually form.
 
Thanks for answering my question. I got that barrel “break-in” procedure from a combination of several sources including different barrel and gun manufacturers. They all seem to recommend a similar method. Here’s Shilen’s:

How should I break-in my new Shilen barrel?
Break-in procedures are as diverse as cleaning techniques. Shilen, Inc. introduced a break-in procedure mostly because customers seemed to think that we should have one. By and large, we don't think breaking-in a new barrel is a big deal. All our stainless steel barrels have been hand lapped as part of their production, as well as any chrome moly barrel we install. Hand lapping a barrel polishes the interior of the barrel and eliminates sharp edges or burrs that could cause jacket deformity. This, in fact, is what you are doing when you break-in a new barrel through firing and cleaning.
Here is our standard recommendation: Clean after each shot for the first 5 shots. The remainder of the break-in is to clean every 5 shots for the next 50 shots. During this time, don't just shoot bullets down the barrel during this 50 shot procedure. This is a great time to begin load development. Zero the scope over the first 5 shots, and start shooting for accuracy with 5-shot groups for the next 50 shots. Same thing applies to fire forming cases for improved or wildcat cartridges. Just firing rounds down a barrel to form brass without any regard to their accuracy is a mistake. It is a waste of time and barrel life. END QUOTE.

Most claim that the projectiles lap the barrel and cleaning in between the first shot or groups removes the powder and copper fouling to allow the bullets to smooth out the inconsistencies. They use the terms break-in and lapping interchangeably.I never saw a polishing compound recommended. They only mentioned a bore cleaner like Hoppes, a brush, and patches. I know my new Shilen Select Match grade barrel is supposed to come “hand lapped” and that break in is supposed to be lessened or unnecessary.

What compound do you recommend?

couple points to keep in mind...
1. barrel mfg do hand lap the bore THEN a gunsmith chambers it, which is another way of saying, they cut a bunch of metal out. so in the critical juncture between chamber and bore (aka leade or throat), all the hand lapped part is now in chips on the floor. so the bullet is now traversing a freshly cut surface.

2. please read this thread https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/barrel-break-in-pictoral-log.797080/

3. the barrel changes a lot over its life. the first change is documented in the thread above and is what i usually call "break in" which is kinda the same as lapping. however, the second is the change in velocity, and generally you'll find velocity starts low, and climbs fairly sharply over the first 100-200 rounds, then slowly tapers off over the next several thousand, til it gets near end of life, where it often starts dropping sharply. this is why some people wouldn't go shoot a match or something with a barrel with less than 100-200 rounds on it. you could call that "break in" if you want. but it's just a round count. no amount of cleaning or not cleaning seems to change that.
 
Quote from TonyAngel - “You’re shooting a couple of bone stock rifles. Did you lap the barrels after you got them? Copper fouling is one of the reasons that I don’t buy rifles off of the shelf anymore. Getting a barrel With a bore that is glass smooth is not very common.”END QUOTE

The actions and barrels are stock with about 850 rounds through each. They are both in unbedded Boyd’s thumbhole varmit stocks. I have a 26” Shilen Select Match grade .223 barrel with a Wylde chamber and a 1:8 twist on the way. If all goes well with it I’ll change the .308 barrel next.

I cleaned after each round for first 10 rounds.
Then after each of first ten 3 round groups.
Then after each of first 10 five shot groups.
Then after each 30-50 rounds. I use copper solvent about every 100 rounds. Is that considered lapping?

Quote from Tony Angel - “.223 and .308 are a couple of rounds that shouldn’t have you tearing your hair out trying to find a sub moa load for them.END QUOTE

Yeah, I’m not necessarily tearing my hair out, just facing mathematical/statistical reality regarding how reliable a sample size of a single five shot group really is.

So, you’ve taken your .223 and .308 loads and shot five or ten 5 round groups with them at 100 yards and found the average of all ten groups was less than an inch? If not, what do you do to determine the accuracy of your loads or evaluate your marksmanship?

I’ve shot many 5 round groups at 100 yards where 4 of them were practically in the same 1/4” hole and one was off by almost an inch. Is that a 1/4” group with a “flyer” or a 1” group in your estimation?

I only ask because the whole point of this thread was to examine what we mean by accuracy and to get at the truth behind some of my own accuracy claims based on a relatively small sample size.

Golfers often record a lower score than they earned because of a shot or two that “didn’t count” for whatever reason. I’m learning that the accuracy claims found in gun reviews and in internet forums may not be based on statistically valid sample sizes. Such claims almost always involve a desire to make a product or a person look good. Sometimes, they can be plain dishonest. For example, the pic in my original post was of the first 10 rounds from my .308, each with a cold, clean barrel during break in. Those ten shots were made at my indoor range at 25 yards making that group practically meaningless. The pic sure is impressive though.

Even before getting into shooting and hand-loading I realized my own human tendency to want to present information in a way that makes me look good. It’s easy to find ways to justify a little dishonesty in ourselves. It’s even easier to criticize others for stretching the truth to make themselves look good in the exact same way we do. The internet only enables and intensifies some of our less desirable tendencies.

I’m just trying to do the hard thing and look at my shooting honestly and objectively. It’s easy enough to break out a bunch of pics of one hole groups like the one in my original post and brag about my loads or marksmanship while looking down on others who admit when they struggle. It’s quite another thing to admit that my shooting and my loads just ain’t as good as I thought they were.

The alcoholics say that the first step to solving a problem is admitting there is one.

Ok, I’m really not trying to sound like a snob and I’m really not trying to knock anyone else’s equipment. I just happened to have the sheer dumb luck of meeting and getting to know a guy who turned out to be a renowned rifle builder and a helluva guy. For him, “throwing” a barrel on a 700 action was, to him, no big deal. The first rifle he put together for me ruined me for stock rifles. Worrying about things like copper fouling was something that I just didn’t need to do until accuracy started to fall off. Krieger barrels are truly worth the wait and the price.

As for shooting groups. I’m not a group shooter. I’ll do it during testing. I develop a load in lots of five rounds. Usually five different loads of five each. I’ll test those. Usually after I’ve verified that I’m having a good shooting day. I often do this with a rim fire at 50 yards. Those that shoot rim fire will under stand what I’m saying.

Of those test rounds, I’ll pick the load that shows the most promise. Then, I’ll load up 50 of that load for my next range session and see if that one good group was truly representative of what the load is capable of.

When I’m testing, I do shoot for groups, but once in a while there’s a called flyer. There are always going to be some due to the human factor. If it’s a called flyer, I don’t include it in the measurement of the group. If it isn’t a called flyer, then I do include it.

In answer to your question of whether my ammo always shoots sub moa groups, the answer is yes. Well, I think it does anyway. As I said, I’m not a groups shooter. I only do that for testing using a front and rear rest. A setup not unlike those used by bench rest shooters.

My preferred method of shooting is prone using a bipod and I shoot to hit my target, not for groups. When I’m limited to 100 or 200 yards, I shoot at either 1/2” or 1” pasties and do not care about the groups. Only that I hit my target.

As long as my load allows me to hit my target, I don’t mess with it.

Shooting groups can have you second guessing everything. When looking through the scope you’ll have two rounds going through the same hole and then one not touching and then you’re wondering why. Maybe even trying to compensate.

Try this. Get an ARA target. The bullseyes on those are pretty small. Or make up your own targets. 1/2” pasties on graph paper. 25 per sheet. 4 sheets. Take those out and shoot them. Each dot is a new target and you can get a composite of all 100 targets if you want.

100 rounds of shooting is a good test of consistency. If you can hit 95 of those dots in a session, you’re doing well shooting with good accuracy and showing stamina. On a good day, I’ll hit all 100 and it happens quite often.

Using this method will test your skill, your load and the way your barrel acts when it heats up.

Bottomline is that I have enough faith in my load and my rifle that when things go wrong, I assume it’s me.
 
to the OP:

there are lots of different ways to measure groups. what we typically do on the internet and benchrest matches could be called "extreme spread". basically, we measure the two farthest holes in the group. then we assume that all future rounds will be somewhere in between those two. this leads to issues around sample size as you describe.

an alternative way of measuring it is what the military uses, which is called AGR or Average Group Radius. they take all the shots, and add up the distance from center and divide by the number of shots. this is good because it takes into account information from all the shots in the group, as opposed to just the two worst ones. however, what it doesn't do a good job of telling you how far out your worst shot could be.
 
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