Honolulu Police Chief says that approving a concealed carry permit......

RetiredUSNChief said:
Meh.

That's 59 out of 41 people who submitted applications so far, with 600 applications submitted.

That's MILES above places like New York. Through August 28 of last year, 3,058 new handgun permits were submitted according to NYPD statistics, not ONE of which was approved. Any bets as to how many have been approved since?

59 doesn't sound like much. But Hawaii has a culture that's far different than mainland United States and they simply don't have that many guns there, either. Their gun laws have been very restrictive for a long time and that, too, has become part of their culture. So 59 is a HUGE deal...more so when you look at their statistics on the matter, small though those numbers may be, and compare them to the statistics of other places which have historically had very strick gun laws. New York, Chicago, etc. If we assume that this 59 is out of 600 (so far), that's nearly 10% approved so far. The remaining just haven't been completed and ready for his review yet.

Let's see how those statistics fair over the coming months.
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"they simply don't have that many guns there".
Well, at least while I was there, many families came to the public range with wagons, like the red flyer, full of rifles, shotguns and handguns. Some days, I had to wait for somebody to burn all of their ammo to get a spot. I had to write my name on a "wait list" book until technology came along and their schedule was on-line, and I had to go there to sign up for a specific range time. No more waiting!
As for how difficult it is to bring weapons into the island: too easy! Go to the HPD, wait in line with weapons in an approved case, go through their forms, then wait (at least for a week) for the forms to be signed by the authorities. That's all.
Buying weapons is kind of the same. Go to the dealer with HPD pre-approved permit, purchase the item, and go to HPD to register your purchase, or something like that. I went through both processes while on island.
 
rust collector said:
People forget that the Sandwich Islands, as they were known long ago, was a kingdom that had been in the hands of the royal family for many years until it was added to the stars on the flag courtesy of missionaries, corporations, issues in the royal family and probably a choice of the lesser of a variety of unfortunate circumstances. The history is fascinating and helps to understand that their story is quite different than that of the early crown colonies. https://www.gohawaii.com/hawaiian-culture/history
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The sugar cane plantation owners treated the workers like crap, there were several labor revolts, each time they would bring in workers from a different country.

I think the prevention of carry weapons to the general populace may have had a start with this.
 
Aim1 said:
Shouldn't even have to be have a certification from a doctor.
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Well, I didn't want to get sticky about it since it irritates people, but my reading of the highest law of the land, which has become "incorporated to the States," does not indicate any such requirement at all and seems to actively discourage such. Come to think of it.....

Terry, 230RN
 
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Although I truly resented the painful experience of having to register my firearms with the HPD when I moved to Oahu, I have many fond memories of living on the island (a daughter was born in Tripler AMC), all the good people I met, shooting at the range at Diamondhead and on the military bases, making friends, the food, the luaus, the climate, etc. (oh, and my spouse was employed by HPD, BTW). Having lived there, I'm not gonna be so judgmental about the current HPD COP. He doesn't know any better. Like one of our esteemed members has noted, it's a totally different culture.
 
Tinker-S said:
"they simply don't have that many guns there".
Well, at least while I was there, many families came to the public range with wagons, like the red flyer, full of rifles, shotguns and handguns. Some days, I had to wait for somebody to burn all of their ammo to get a spot. I had to write my name on a "wait list" book until technology came along and their schedule was on-line, and I had to go there to sign up for a specific range time. No more waiting!
As for how difficult it is to bring weapons into the island: too easy! Go to the HPD, wait in line with weapons in an approved case, go through their forms, then wait (at least for a week) for the forms to be signed by the authorities. That's all.
Buying weapons is kind of the same. Go to the dealer with HPD pre-approved permit, purchase the item, and go to HPD to register your purchase, or something like that. I went through both processes while on island.
Click to expand...

They don't have that many guns there...outside haole. This is where the differences in customs come in between Hawaii and the mainland states. It's not that native Hawaiians DON'T have firearms, because they do...it's that their percentages are lower.

As for the waiting at the range...in Oahu, there is ONE public range for the entire island, which has a population of a smidge over one million. So it's understandable that it would be busy. There are other ranges, but they are all private ranges.

Bringing firearms to the island isn't "difficult", per se. Maybe I should have used better words to express my opinion. What it is is annoying as bejeebers to transport a firearm to and from Hawaii for whatever use I might get out of having it. Hawaii has no reciprocity, so I couldn't carry it like normal. If I were to be in Hawaii on vacation, there would be no point in having any of my firearms with me since I couldn't carry them, as I wouldn't be spending my precious vacation time there at a range shooting. Outside of pigs, they have nothing there I want to hunt with a firearm...and after hiking a ton of miles all over Oahu and never once seeing the first sign of a pig, that would be a waste of my time.

If I were there for work, like I was for three months in 2020, I still wouldn't want a firearm I couldn't carry with me because I'd be far more interested in spending my off-work time hiking and exploring the island(s) and other activities.

As for transporting the firearms...I know it's relatively easy to make arrangements through the airlines, but quite frankly I'm not a very trusting individual with respect to handing off a firearm to the airlines. And registering it with the police once I arrive? Bugger that! I don't agree with a federal registry (which we don't officially have by federal law) and I most certainly am not going to willingly register at any other level of government.

To be sure, there are mainland states where I can't carry as well. But the difference there is as simple as securing my unloaded firearm(s) in the trunk per federal law while I'm transiting them or until I get to my final destination.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
They don't have that many guns there...outside haole. This is where the differences in customs come in between Hawaii and the mainland states. It's not that native Hawaiians DON'T have firearms, because they do...it's that their percentages are lower.

As for the waiting at the range...in Oahu, there is ONE public range for the entire island, which has a population of a smidge over one million. So it's understandable that it would be busy. There are other ranges, but they are all private ranges.

Bringing firearms to the island isn't "difficult", per se. Maybe I should have used better words to express my opinion. What it is is annoying as bejeebers to transport a firearm to and from Hawaii for whatever use I might get out of having it. Hawaii has no reciprocity, so I couldn't carry it like normal. If I were to be in Hawaii on vacation, there would be no point in having any of my firearms with me since I couldn't carry them, as I wouldn't be spending my precious vacation time there at a range shooting. Outside of pigs, they have nothing there I want to hunt with a firearm...and after hiking a ton of miles all over Oahu and never once seeing the first sign of a pig, that would be a waste of my time.

If I were there for work, like I was for three months in 2020, I still wouldn't want a firearm I couldn't carry with me because I'd be far more interested in spending my off-work time hiking and exploring the island(s) and other activities.

As for transporting the firearms...I know it's relatively easy to make arrangements through the airlines, but quite frankly I'm not a very trusting individual with respect to handing off a firearm to the airlines. And registering it with the police once I arrive? Bugger that! I don't agree with a federal registry (which we don't officially have by federal law) and I most certainly am not going to willingly register at any other level of government.

To be sure, there are mainland states where I can't carry as well. But the difference there is as simple as securing my unloaded firearm(s) in the trunk per federal law while I'm transiting them or until I get to my final destination.
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Understood.
 
Speedo66 said:
From what I read the Koko Head range is now closed due to a personnel shortage. The current range personnel had somewhat elevated lead levels, though not over gov't standards, and they have not been replaced.

Now local legislators are saying the range must be a hazard to the community, I don't doubt they will at least try to shut it down permanently.

Hoping for the best for the Oah'u gun community.
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I have used that range quite a few times when I lived there. It's the only outdoor range they have on Ohau. I hope they can resolve the situation. There aren't many indoor ranges either on the island.
 
That range is closed now?

While I was active on the 2ahawaii dot com board a couple of years ago there was a lot of community pressure to close that range. As I recall, a hiking trail went up the side of a mountain the range used as a backstop which had signs warning the people about being in an impact area. There were also the usual fake claims about "bullets whizzing by my head" and "I coulda been killed," and even unmarked, unrifled bullets being presented as having "hit my house, I coulda been kilt."

I guess the propaganda finally conquered reality.

As usual.

Terry, 230RN
 
Honolulu county, via the recreation dep't., is bringing in consultants to evaluate the claims of lead contamination to the adjacent community and claims of contamination to a nearby portion of the ocean.

The consultant will also consider changes to the range itself to improve conditions.

I've seen "expert witnesses" before, who's paying them often determines the requested outcome of their evaluation. Let's hope the county wants to keep the range open.
 
Speedo66 said:
Honolulu county, via the recreation dep't., is bringing in consultants to evaluate the claims of lead contamination to the adjacent community and claims of contamination to a nearby portion of the ocean.

The consultant will also consider changes to the range itself to improve conditions.

I've seen "expert witnesses" before, who's paying them often determines the requested outcome of their evaluation. Let's hope the county wants to keep the range open.
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Ocean Contamination??? lol

Has anybody been to certain sides of the Islands, it’s literally covered in plastic; decomposed plastic that’s been floating in the ocean for decades. I was at beach in Kauai and the beach was like 1/2 plastic & 1/2 sand
 
230RN said:
That range is closed now?

While I was active on the 2ahawaii dot com board a couple of years ago there was a lot of community pressure to close that range. As I recall, a hiking trail went up the side of a mountain the range used as a backstop which had signs warning the people about being in an impact area. There were also the usual fake claims about "bullets whizzing by my head" and "I coulda been killed," and even unmarked, unrifled bullets being presented as having "hit my house, I coulda been kilt."

I guess the propaganda finally conquered reality.

As usual.

Terry, 230RN
Click to expand...

That's the Koko Head Railway Trailhead and, quite frankly, there are parts of that trail that are more dangerous than the rifle range. Direct line of sight to that rifle range isn't possible, from my memory of having looked for it from the trail. I checked the map views, took which show a ground view up the trail to the top. However, you CAN walk the ridge of Koko Head Crater to points where the range is in sight.

A couple Google Map screen shots. The first shows the rifle range at the bottom and the trailhead path is clearly seen between the two green hiker symbols labeled "Koko Crater Railway Trailhead" and "Stairs (Summit). The second is a ground view from Koko Head Rifle Road facing Koko Crater. The trail and summit is juuuuuuuuust over the left ridge, almost (but not quite) riding the ridge high enough to see the rifle range from the trail itself.

Once you reach the summit of Koko Crater, however, if you walk the crater rim counterclockwise (looking down on the crater) you will come within line of sight of the rifle range. Using a ruler, the top of the ridge where the rifle range is visible would be just shy of 3,000 feet.

Koko Head 1.jpg

Koko Head 2.jpg


EDIT:

Here's a picture from my hike showing just one shot where the trail is unsafe:

20201031_120916.jpg


Same spot, looking back down. Can't see the range from that spot.

20201031_120930.jpg


Here's Christina, my coworker, taking a breather just off the trail on the rifle range side. Note the ridge rock behind her.

20201031_125634.jpg


And here's the summit looking in the rifle range direction. The range is not visible.

20201031_142714.jpg


To be fair, looking back through my pictures, there are some places as you approach the top where the range is, in fact, visible. I think this one is about 2100 feet up the trail. The range is visible on the left.

20201031_132536.jpg
 
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Tony50ae said:
I have used that range quite a few times when I lived there. It's the only outdoor range they have on Ohau. I hope they can resolve the situation. There aren't many indoor ranges either on the island.
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There are a few more outdoor ranges on island, but some if not most are for members only, and there is always a waiting list.
I remember using the USMC range, and we were firing towards the ocean. Talking about contamination!
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
Just edited it!
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Well, you're looking at line of sight "events," but there's the possibiloty of ricochets and high angle accidental discharges coming down to almost any point, almost anywhere. Falling small arms bullets from high angles at their terminal velocities aren't too dangerous. I guess a 700+ grain .50 bullet could actually cause a serious injury, though.

Speedo66 remarked,

"Honolulu county, via the recreation dep't., is bringing in consultants to evaluate the claims of lead contamination to the adjacent community and claims of contamination to a nearby portion of the ocean.

The consultant will also consider changes to the range itself to improve conditions.

I've seen "expert witnesses" before, who's paying them often determines the requested outcome of their evaluation. Let's hope the county wants to keep the range open."

Yes, I call that commercial science. Nowadays whenever I hear "studies show," "research indicates," "evidence points to" or the like, my first question is "who paid for that study, research, or evidence?"

Off topic specifically, but relevant to Speedo66's remarks about the range's future.

Frankly, I don't care that much about Hawaii's cultural problems with firearms any more. I feel the same way here, now, as when I decided to get off the 2ahawaii dot com board.

Frustrated.

Terry, 230RN
 
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Sure, I'm looking at line of sight. Everything else you mentioned could apply to nearly every outdoor range anywhere. The maximum range of many firearms, even handguns, is measured in thousands of feet. A 9mm from a handgun fired at a 45 degree angle can travel as far as 2,300 meters, about a mile and a half. That puts Croft State Park, for example, within range of the SCDNR James O. Thomason Firing Range.

You are correct..."expert witnesses" quite often seem to be "expertly aligned with those who hire them" in many cases, it seems. Certainly this is the case in the courtroom, but I suspect that's a rather extreme example. But I often suspect at least some amount of bias on many panels who are apparently already predispositioned towards one view already.
 
Lead contamination is being used to attack gun use here too. "No safe level of exposure", we are hearing. Not just shotguns, and not just wetlands.
 
There's "no safe exposure" to life itself, as it turns out. All roads lead to death, without exception.

The question of safety, then, is ALWAYS a matter of relativity. The best we can say isn't "it's safe", but "it's safer than _____". There's ALWAYS some level of risk.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
There's "no safe exposure" to life itself, as it turns out. All roads lead to death, without exception.

The question of safety, then, is ALWAYS a matter of relativity. The best we can say isn't "it's safe", but "it's safer than _____". There's ALWAYS some level of risk.
Click to expand...
to much oxygen will kill you!
to much cookies will kill you!
to much electric cars will kill African children!

my point is: they could give 2 donkeys butt about safety or life

CONTROL = TYRANT PLAY BOOK
 
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