Hostage-taker is negotiated into withdrawing sans hostage: do you keep your word?

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Krenn

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Note: I KNOW that there are a LOT of decisions to be made throughout this process, and that the decisions (and results) I've selected are by no means always, or even ever, the correct ones. Bear with me here, and focus on the final, POSED, question.

So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.

You KNOW that your training isn't good enough to guarentee that you can take him out in this situation... you figure a 10% chance you can make the rifle shot without hurting the hostage, and an additional 30% chance that you can can kill the man while only head-wounding the woman. Since that's not acceptable unless and until the situation gets worse, you negotiate instead.

Very slowly, you talk him into lowering the knife while you lower the rifle. you negotiate that he gets your (convenietly full of cash) wallet, and that he gets to go, but will leave the hostage behind. The police will be in here in a few more minutes, and he knows how much more trouble that will put him in, so he wants this over and done with as soon as possible so he can still get away.

The handout goes down nice and slowly. you put the wallet on the banister. You unload the rifle and toss it aside. he leaves the hostage at the top of the stairs, and starts coming down, still with the knife. He doesn't know about the concealed handgun, and you can draw it fairly quickly. He gets halfway down, and you have a choice:

1. you can draw the handgun and demand that he surrender.

2. you can keep your word, step aside, let him leave with the wallet, and give his description to the police when they arrive soon after.

3. you can draw and fire.

which do you choose? and yes, I KNOW that it's a contrived situation.
 
Draw and fire.

With him still holding the knife he is a lethal threat. If he closes the distance and kills you he can then do whatever he wants with the hostage, gets to keep your conveniently full of cash wallet, and as a bonus he can also grab up your rifle and use it against the cops when they show up. Bad situation all around.


I also do not believe that giving your word under duress (the bad having a knife to the throat of the hostage qualifies for me) has any valid meaning. In my mind any deal I make is not giving my word it is a part of a combat strategy designed to protect the hostage, myself, and to what ever degree possible the badguy.
 
Krenn said:
So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.

You KNOW that your training isn't good enough to guarentee that you can take him out in this situation... you figure a 10% chance you can make the rifle shot without hurting the hostage, and an additional 30% chance that you can can kill the man while only head-wounding the woman.
Click to expand...

Just how long are these stairs?

I'm thinking that even though I'm not some kind of Camp Perry winning expert marksman I could still pull a headshot with a rifle at that short of distance.
 
I'm afraid that I'd have to grease him, assuming that the hostage was a member of my family. No apologies, no regrets. Sometimes you have to lie to liars, cheat cheaters and deal violently with violent people. Sometimes all three simultaneously.
Biker
 
I'd have to balance the PITA of legal defense vs the PITA of replacing/canceling license, credit cards, etc. in wallet.
 
If he still has the knife, he is still a threat. Therefore he dies. ESPECIALLY if he had the pi$$-poor judgment to hold a knife to MY WIFE'S THROAT.
 
I don't understand why you're negotiating. You have the suspect contained, the police are on the way. He either puts the knife down and moves away or dies....Seems like a pretty cut and dried situation to me.

Jeff
 
Jeff-
Because the idea is to get him to put the knife down and move away so you have a clean shot without having to get it by him slitting her throat. If yo uhave a good shot its one thing but if not you need to get him to let her go before you can take that shot.
 
Krenn said:
he leaves the hostage at the top of the stairs, and starts coming down, still with the knife.
Click to expand...
Okay... he's too stupid to live, but he's released my loved one, and assuming she's clear, SHE will probably shoot him in the back of the head, and I'll have all those brains to clean up.

"Get the swiffer, honey"
 
So, you're standing at the foot of the stairs, and the top is the burglar turned hostage taker, behind a hostage, with most but not all of his head hidden behind the corner of a wall, his body behind the hostage, and a knife at her throat. you have a rifle aimed at him, and a concealed handgun.
Click to expand...

I see no reason to negotiate. We're looking at a 15 foot or less shot in most houses. I've trained to make that shot with my patrol rifle for work. The only negotiation is for him to drop the knife and move away so he can be taken into custody or he dies. His choice. He cuts the hostage and he dies, again his choice. There is no situation that would make me give up a weapon. That is the kind of stuff you see in poorly written TV shows and movies.

Jeff
 
Ain't no way I'm unloading and 'tossing aside' a weapon while he's still armed. He's still a threat within 21 feet.
 
You watch too many movies. No way is he gonna reflex-kill someone with a knife. And if he's so hidden behind the hostage you can't hit them, then use the fact that he can't see you well to move to a place you can hit him.

Despite the original posting, I still deny the premise. Never negotiate here. Shoot him. Well, you could take a moment to say one thing, then ignore what he says (distracting himself) while taking a moment to aim, make sure you have accounted offset right, etc.


Lucky for me the wife will be ready for the shot. She also yells at the TV when some dumbass gives up his gun at the wildly insane serial killer armed with a pointed stick.
 
The only fair fight is the one you walk away from. When it comes to my loved ones there is only one rule.....Win.

I will fight ruthlessly, and in a manner that some will perceive as unfair, but unless I utterly fail, I will win...The only objective is the safety of my family and myself.

Charles
 
Somebody breaks into my house, his life is in severe danger.

He has a weapon, his life is over unless he disarms.

He threatens my loved ones, he does not leave alive for any reason.
 
Well you made a bum deal, you have a better position than he does. No way should he be allowed to keep his weapon. The only real deal to make in that situation is that he put down the knife and you dont kill him.

The real trouble If you plan on lying in that situation is that he will see through it. i would practice a *lot*. Most people make piss-poor liers when under duress and if you freak the guy out your looking to have a real mess on your hands.
 
My wife has told me in no uncertain terms that if I am EVER confronted by that kind of situation, to shoot the attacker without hesitation. She would a lot rather risk being injured by some sort of reflex action than to give an attacker carte blanche to do what he wants to with us. The consequences are just worse.

In your hypothetical situation, unless that wall is masonry, you can shoot through the wall, or move to a position where you have a clear shot.
 
I recently prosecuted an Attempted Murder case where the defendnat raped a girl (16), then cut her throat with a serrated bread knife (the blade was 9 inches long, decently sharp). It was attempted murder because she survived, called 911 on her own, and is doing very well.

My point? Despite what Hollywood has implanted in our collective consciousness, cutting a person's throat isn't a guaranteed kill. So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary. A reflex-action cut on an adult will very ikely not be deep enough to present a serious risk of death, and you'll be there to get the squad ASAP.
 
Jeff White said:
I see no reason to negotiate. We're looking at a 15 foot or less shot in most houses. I've trained to make that shot with my patrol rifle for work. The only negotiation is for him to drop the knife and move away so he can be taken into custody or he dies. His choice. He cuts the hostage and he dies, again his choice. There is no situation that would make me give up a weapon. That is the kind of stuff you see in poorly written TV shows and movies.

Jeff
Click to expand...

+1 (that's twice in one day, Jeff :p )

I live in a 2500 sqft two story. I just broke out the tape measure. Top of the stairs to bottom is 16'. That's 5 yards. I think you could dot the Eye and cross the Tee with a freaking snubbie at that range. Rifle? You oughta be able to put it into a really small space at that range. I'm not a fan of headshots, but at 5 freaking yards you oughta be able to put it in the guy's eye.
I ain't dropping it, I'm dropping the BG.
Worst case scenerio in my house is from one end of the upstairs hallway to the kitchen sink. 16 yards. :rolleyes:
 
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