Hostage-taker is negotiated into withdrawing sans hostage: do you keep your word?

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:) Sounds like a scenario right out of the movies.

Of course in the movies the good guy, be he a cop or a citizen, when confronted, always drops his weapon. Stupid, stupid, STUPID! Never give up your weapon.

The movie scenario I'd write would go something like this:

There'd be no negotiation, no talking, not a single word. A head shot with a rifle at stair case distance, even from bottom to top is pretty darn easy. The BG would just grow a third eye and drop like a rock with a single shot to the head.

This being a movie and all, I suppose some dialogue would be necessary so it'd go something like this:

Goodguy: Drop the knife fool or yur dead...
Badguy: No way man. No way. You drop the gun or I'll cut 'er man. I mean it man. I'll cut 'er.
Girl: [calmly] Just shoot this moron and get this over with. I've had a long day and I'm starting to get annoyed.
Badguy: Shut up BITCH!
Goodguy: Look fool it's like this. I can just shoot you in the head and you die. You cut her and you die. Or we can wait for the cops in which case you probably will die or you can just drop the knife, let her go and you live. So what we've got here is a situation where the odds of you dieing are about 3 and a half outta 4. Your choice dude... Live or Die? Up to you.
Badguy: I'll cut 'er man I mean it.
Goodguy: Some people are just too stupid to live. BANG!

Badguy grows a third eye. Lights out for BG. Girl sighs and straightens blouse. goodguy dashes up the stairs...

Goodguy to Girl: He shud'a paid better attention in school.
Girl: What do you mean?
Goodguy: 3 and a half to 4 odds of dying and it was his choice. Obviously he paid no attention at all in math class.
Girl: Probably went to a government run public school. [shrugs] He never had a chance. [giggles] Let's go to bed. [wiggles off in the direction of the bed room]

That's the movies.
This is real life.

Badguy: Drop the gun -
Goodguy: BANG!
Badguy grows third eye. End of problem - mostly anyway - still gotta deal with the cops and DA. Minor issues really when one considers the altenative.
 
Something just occured to me: I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise. My Glocks or revolvers? No problem. The BG takes one in the brainpan, but I always shoot my Bushie at 25 yards plus! Hmmmm....
Biker
 
I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise.
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About 1 inch below your aim point if your sights are accurate at 200yds.

There is a good reason rule #1 in hostage negotiations is "don't make any promise, you cannot keep." For negotiation to work. the hostage needs to believe you will keep your word.

I would have reminded the BG that if he hurts the hostage I have no other reason not to kill him. Priority #1 is convincing him it is in his best interests not to hurt the hostage. Step #2 is convincing him that your cooperation is necessary for him to get out of this mess. Step #3 is to convince him that you will decide what will happen next. That puts him in a mind to listen to you.

Assuming your house is of average size, the BG will be within 10 - 15 feet of you. You will never draw and shoot before he reaches you with that knife.
 
My point? Despite what Hollywood has implanted in our collective consciousness, cutting a person's throat isn't a guaranteed kill. So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary.
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getting shot in the head isnt a guaranteed kill either FYI...
 
Biker said;
Something just occured to me: I've never shot my Bushmaster at 5 yards! I don't even know where it would hit, elevation wise.
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You need to practice in close, and you need to learn about offset and hold over.

Offset is the distance from the top of the front sight to the centerline of the bore. Standard iron sights on an AR type weapon are approximately 2.5 inches over the bore.

Holdover is the difference between point of aim and point of impact by compensating for the offset. Factors affecting holdover are the offset built into your weapon, (different sighting systems have different offsets, some red dot systems mounted on top of the carry handle can make height over the bore as high as 4 inches) the trajectory of the round you use and the zero of the weapon.

It's hard to give a definte holdover because everyone's rifle will be slightly different. If you are shooting standard iron sights and you don't have a zero set for say 500 meters, you can pretty much go with a 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch holdover at ranges closer then 25 yards. You need to go to the range and verify this. The 2 1/4 to 2 1/2 inch rule of thumb is also good for most red dot type sights mounted to co-witness with the irons. but once again, go to the range and find out, then train at close range, because if you don't train yourself to use a different sight picture up close, you will default to your standard sight picture and in a situation such as the one in this thread, that could have tragic results.

Jeff
 
benEzra said:
In your hypothetical situation, unless that wall is masonry, you can shoot through the wall, or move to a position where you have a clear shot.
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Nope. Bad guess.

Even in a house with sheetrock walls, they use 3 2x4 studs to frame the corners. If his head is behind a corner, to shoot through the wall you'll be shooting through at least two of those three 2x4s.

Ain't gonna happen. Yes, a .223 or an AK round will probably make it through, but forget accuracy, and it may loose enough punch that when (if) it hits him, all it's going to do is make him mad.
 
Of course you're right, Jeff. I just always considered the Bushmaster my 25 yard plus gun. Thus, that's where I work it. The first gun I would grab in the situation above would be my 870 with rifle sights that I keep loaded with slugs. But it suddenly came to me that if the Bushy was closer and ended up in my hand, I wouldn't know where my front sight should be up close. Bad situation. Thanks for the info.
Biker
 
new negotiations

I'd make sure the family member gets into another room with a locked door so she/he's safe, and announce to the BG that new negotiations are underway. I've already pulled the pistol and said two options are available to him: 1. put the knife down and sit on the steps to wait for the police, or 2. don't put the knife down and go out feet first.

I would thank him for not harming my family member and as a courtesy, I won't blow his brains out in return if he cooperates.
 
So, shoot the bad guy in the head if you can, then call the squad and perform first aid as necessary.
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CAS700850, are you saying that you would give first aid to the badguy?

If so, you are a better man than I. Well, maybe I'd do a... version... of the heimlich manuever, but then again, I'm no expert in first aid. You grab around the neck for that right?
 
He probably meant for the hostage. lacerations from exploding wall and bone fragments and all that.
 
The BG would be on his back. no words, no warnings, no discussion. Just a wink to my lady and lights out.

I don't negotiate when I'm the one with the rifle. At 15 feet, I can write my name on a 3x5 index card. :D

In all seriousness, STK.
 
That's 5 yards.
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yeah, but it's a FLUID 5 yards. The second it seemed to me that you were trying to draw a bead on me, I'd pull your loved one into the shot. If you and I danced that dance a couple of times, you'd probably get frustrated enough to stop trying to pin me in your sights.


Then I'd push your loved one toward you (maybe a little to the side) and try to grab your rifle in my left hand while stabbing you with the knife in my right.

Sounds too "movie-ish" doesn't it? Never work...right?

I would have thought so too before I saw an exhibition at a local police station. They had some ex-Special Forces knife expert come in and show how quickly you can kill someone with a knife.

It's only 15 feet. Get a young kid sometime to leap at you across 15 feet as fast as he can. You don't have much time to think about it. He's on you fast. If he's got enough sense to push your rifle barrel away from himself, he can start carving on you while you stand there.

I guess what I'm saying is...just cause you've got a gun doesn't mean you'd win in that situation.
 
Even in a house with sheetrock walls, they use 3 2x4 studs to frame the corners. If his head is behind a corner, to shoot through the wall you'll be shooting through at least two of those three 2x4s.
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I was assuming 7.62x39mm as the caliber in question, but I'd think even 9mm JHP's would go through three 2x4's (just a guess). That'd be an interesting experiment at the range...see if it shifts POI any also...
 
Borachon said;

yeah, but it's a FLUID 5 yards. The second it seemed to me that you were trying to draw a bead on me, I'd pull your loved one into the shot. If you and I danced that dance a couple of times, you'd probably get frustrated enough to stop trying to pin me in your sights.
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Ever seen and trained with Louis Awerbuck's simulator for just this situation? You learn to shoot when you have a the shot, not dance the dance. As I said earlier, this is something that you can train for.

Then I'd push your loved one toward you (maybe a little to the side) and try to grab your rifle in my left hand while stabbing you with the knife in my right.
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From the top of the steps? :rolleyes: Been watching The Matrix again? ;) If the staircase is enclosed the best you can hope for is that the three of you wind up in a pile at the bottom of the steps and you don't injure yourself too badly in the fall.

If the staircase is open and has a bannister on one side, there is a good chance you're going to go over or break through the bannister and land on the floor below and you're probably not going to be prepared for that landing, greatly increasing the odds you'll seriously injure yourself.

If you look back at the original scenario, the good guy with the rifle is at the bottom of the stairs. So you pull your Hollywood move and push the hostage down the stairs in front of you you have to get past her to get to the guy with the rifle. As soon as she's down, the NSR goes into your chest. I guarantee you that a trained person could put 5 or 6 into your chest in the 1-2 seconds (maybe more considering you put an obstacle in front of you) it would take you to cover that distance. Remember he's got his weapon raised looking to shoot anyway. It's not like he has to draw from concealment.

I would have thought so too before I saw an exhibition at a local police station. They had some ex-Special Forces knife expert come in and show how quickly you can kill someone with a knife.
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The guy must have been a martial artist who had been in SF at one time. Trust me, there isn't a lot of knife training in the military, not even in SOF. In fact I know a guy who is in the unit the Army says doesn't even exist who doesn't even carry a fixed blade on operations, just a multitool. I'm not sure of the demographics, but I rather doubt that you'll find anyone possessing the skill that you saw in the demonstration doing home invasions except in John Woo movies.

I guess what I'm saying is...just cause you've got a gun doesn't mean you'd win in that situation.
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There are no guarantees, but a firearm and the training and mindset to properly employ it give you one heck of an advantage.

Jeff
 
Shoot The Hostage!

Sorry, I couldn't help it. If I have a line on the BG, I take the shot. But the offset on the sights does make me think that I have some new type of practice to do.

Jubei
 
25,000 a year ..

to incarcerate a felon.

shoot him. my taxes are high enough now. in ADVANCE, I forgive you for lying.
 
a bad choice

If I had surrendered my rifle and BG has the knife, (I don't see that happening, I'd back away and give my wallet as an escape option for BG), I should know the cc gun draw will generally not beat an edged weapon response at close quarter range. I've put my life in BG's hands and I'd have to say that after making the poor choice of giving up my first gun, I'd draw down on BG w/o a second thought. The problem here is there is a second thought. I won't have time to draw and give BG the command of dropping the knife should BG decide to throw it at me or attack. I'd pretty much want to draw and shoot. I'd hope that since I'm not LE , I won't be held to as high of a standard in the lethal confrontation. The reality is I'd probably give the command after my draw and hope the worst of it is me dodging an airborn knife.. assuming I had a 9 foot gap and further assuming I'd shoot if he came at me. "Drop the knife or I"ll shoot" might be the last words BG hears. I really don't see an instance when I'd put my life over the hostage and disarm myself. (If it were my own family.. okay.. you got me) The knife is a lethal confrontation and going to the cc gun draw is not a good enough back up plan in my opinion.
 
Why, for a minute, do you think you owe 'honor' to some terd that is extorting 'your word' under duress? Blow his friggin' head off. If he's still twiching, staple his head to the ground with 3 or 4 more. Any questions?
 
Mike,
Anchoring shots may be emotionally pleasing, they are liable to get one in trouble in a non-military situation. Selling the Grand Jury on your story that you were worried the badguy would rise up and attack you from behind as you vacated the area, might be a tad difficult. ;)

Jeff
 
If you think a BG who just let your wife go in exchange for your wallet is a threat, wait till you see the DA who will try to make you rot in jail for shooting a person who "AT THE TIME' was not an emediate threat to your life. Because as you said, he was coming down the stairs to get your wallet, not davancing on YOU with the deadly weapon.

You would have to explain how you thought he was an emediate deadly threat while he was complying with your request to do a swap. It all depends on what you tell the Police when they arrive .

(Officer I shot because I felt my Life was in danger. I would like to talk to my Lawyer .) End of all communications with the Police.
 
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