How accurate should a CCW handgun be?

[DonRon]

Here is another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c06mH6x2Ntc&feature=related

 

[WardenWolf]

Short answer: as accurate as you can get it. One thing I like about my surplus P-64 that I carry: it's incredibly accurate. The sights may be small, but I painted them, and that little gun shoots true to point of aim and can hit exactly where I want it to hit.

 

[David E]

I don't see how citing cases where the badguy is within arms reach makes your point.

Clearly, not all situations require the same techniques. It's good to know the arms reach stuff, as well as longer distance techniques.

Some may disagree and think that since point shooting works at 3 feet, it'll also work when shooting at a badguys head at 25 yds.....

 

[DonRon]

I don't see how citing cases where the badguy is within arms reach makes your point.

Clearly, not all situations require the same techniques. It's good to know the arms reach stuff, as well as longer distance techniques.

Some may disagree and think that since point shooting works at 3 feet, it'll also work when shooting at a badguys head at 25 yds.....

A gun fight is not going to happen at 25 yards in a self defense situation. I was taught to be blind folded standing right in front of the target. When the whistle blew, I had 2 seconds to get 3 to 4 rounds off and hit mass some where. I can tell you this much, I was damn sure glad I was taught that technique. It was the only time I fired my weapon also. Franky, if I have to shoot at 25 yards, I would run instead and seek cover.

 

[David E]

Our dept had a situation where a badguy rifle shooter was 83 yds from the officer. Said shooter was busy engaging other officers, so this deputy took the shot. Hit him, too, and ended the situation.

Was this officer supposed to NOT shoot? Allowing the badguy more time to hit his brother officers?

Here, the local dept had a sitution of a guy wandering through the neighborhood with an M1 Garand, shooting folks who were minding their own business, like mowing the lawn. The cop who spotted him made a 76 yd shot and hit him, again ending the situation.

Rare? Sure, but it does happen. Ignoring that fact doesn't make it go away, regardless of your pronouncements. And point shooting just ain't gonna cut it.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Your examples in post #s 23, 24, 25 and most of 26 are examples of shooting from retention.

You'll note in #26, that when the range was beyond arms reach, the gun was brought up high enough to use the sights. Even if he did not take a fine sight picture, it is a skill learned from sighted fire.

I would think that being in LE, you would know that there are time when we need to engage a BG rather than run and hide. That many times means engaging at longer ranges than arms reach. When that occurs, especially when there are bystanders about, point shooting is more a liability than an asset.

Practicing point shooting to the exclusion of sighted fire isn't a new thing, that is where USPSA started...it comes from the world of Fast Draw Competition. The Modern Technique was the beginning of the evolution away from that to a more efficient way of defensive shooting...lead by shooters like Jack Weaver, who was a working cop. Sighted fire was proven on the streets by people like Jim Cirillo of NYPD's Stake Out Squad, who won more real gun battles than any other officer.

Point shooting is a valuable skill in your defensive handgun toolbox, but it is a specialized tool with limited applications. The finest point shooter I've ever seen, Thell Reed, could hit targets when shooting from the hip that defy belief...but when practicing for real life defense he uses sighted fire.

To advocate shooting without the use of sights to the exclusion of practicing sighted fire is doing a great, possibly fatal, disservice to readers with less real street experience

BTW: You didn't mention where you learned the technique...or when

 

[Prosser]

HMMM.
Interesting question.

My first priority is the gun light enough, and small enough to carry all the time, and, if so, what can I do with it at 7 yards?
Second: what is it's effect going to be on the target? What load am I able to place reliably on target, and how hot can I load it without it being unshootable?

Third: How big is the bad guy going to be, and, how many are there likely to be?
fourth: Is there anyway to avoid putting myself in that situation?
fifth: What other resources can I employ short of a firearm?
sixth: what other characteristics, BESIDES the bullet, does the gun have, and ammunition, that might effect the situation?
seventh: Do I shoot the gun well instinctively, using primarily the front site, and quickly?
eighth: How quickly can I reload the gun, and how many rounds does it carry?
ninth: what method of carry can I use with the gun, without having LEO problems, since in our fair state you have to be Nancy Pelosi or Fienstien to get a CCW permit.

I have a variety of solutions to these questions, and problems. ALL are compromises. Accuracy is part of, but not the entire equation.

I will accept that at 7 yards I'm likely to only be able to body shoot a bad guy with a scandium 360PD if I use 148 grain, 1131 fps .357 Mag ammo, which is all I can shoot out of the gun, recoil wise.
My train of thought goes something like this:
The gun is very light, I can pocket or thunderwear, or a variety of other kinds of carry. It is NOT as accurate as some heavier, more compact solutions. A Kahr PM9 is MUCH more accurate, with 147 grain HST at around 900-950 fps, giving me head shot capability. Still, the 360 has booming sound, huge flash, and resembles a flash bang grenade coupled with a flame thrower. If I miss, bad guy is likely to be stunned, more so then with the 9mm HST.
Detonics CombatMaster, or a full sized 1911 will shoot 230 grain 45 Super at 1100 fps, or, 200 grains at 1200 fps, with recoil I'm comfortable with and excellent accuracy. Trade off is they are heavy, and more difficult to conceal.
Favorite? Shoulder rig with .500JRH FA 83, with about a 5" barrel.
Incredibly accurate, I'm fairly fast with a single action, and very comfortable carrying one. Reloads suck, but, chances of a one shot stop with a 275 grain Hollow point that opens up to 2 bore rifle/shotgun size, at 1600 fps are excellent.

Finally, all of this is dependent on the situation you are likely to face. A rural trip to the woods, the FA 83 is great, provided it's not hot. My weekly trip to beautiful downtown Oakland and Richmond? Detonics or Kimber would get the call with .45 Super, because gangs are a major issue, not bears or hogs.

So try and match your choices to the situation you are going into, and the challenges you are likely to face, and, be prepared for the unexpected.

 

[DonRon]

Our dept had a situation where a badguy rifle shooter was 83 yds from the officer. Said shooter was busy engaging other officers, so this deputy took the shot. Hit him, too, and ended the situation.

Was this officer supposed to NOT shoot? Allowing the badguy more time to hit his brother officers?

Here, the local dept had a sitution of a guy wandering through the neighborhood with an M1 Garand, shooting folks who were minding their own business, like mowing the lawn. The cop who spotted him made a 76 yd shot and hit him, again ending the situation.

Rare? Sure, but it does happen. Ignoring that fact doesn't make it go away, regardless of your pronouncements. And point shooting just ain't gonna cut it.

With all due respect. I really don't think a CCW holder is going to be running down a suspect with an MI like a LEO would have too.

 

[DonRon]

Your examples in post #s 23, 24, 25 and most of 26 are examples of shooting from retention.

You'll note in #26, that when the range was beyond arms reach, the gun was brought up high enough to use the sights. Even if he did not take a fine sight picture, it is a skill learned from sighted fire.

I would think that being in LE, you would know that there are time when we need to engage a BG rather than run and hide. That many times means engaging at longer ranges than arms reach. When that occurs, especially when there are bystanders about, point shooting is more a liability than an asset.

Practicing point shooting to the exclusion of sighted fire isn't a new thing, that is where USPSA started...it comes from the world of Fast Draw Competition. The Modern Technique was the beginning of the evolution away from that to a more efficient way of defensive shooting...lead by shooters like Jack Weaver, who was a working cop. Sighted fire was proven on the streets by people like Jim Cirillo of NYPD's Stake Out Squad, who won more real gun battles than any other officer.

Point shooting is a valuable skill in your defensive handgun toolbox, but it is a specialized tool with limited applications. The finest point shooter I've ever seen, Thell Reed, could hit targets when shooting from the hip that defy belief...but when practicing for real life defense he uses sighted fire.

To advocate shooting without the use of sights to the exclusion of practicing sighted fire is doing a great, possibly fatal, disservice to readers with less real street experience

BTW: You didn't mention where you learned the technique...or when

New Jersey State Police Academy, Seagirt New Jersey 1967. I also never stated that it was my only method of training, You seem to assume too much. What I did say is that, it will most likely be the method that a CCW Holder will be involved in though.

 

[Kleanbore]

Coupla thoughts:

1. While some LEO shooting situations may be similar to civilian SD shootings in terms of distance, etc., the sworn officer has the duty to pursue, engage, and apprehend or stop violent criminal actors to save the lives of citizens or fellow officers, possibly at long range and in situations from which the civilian would be far wiser to withdraw. No reason to not have the skills, but the civilian's requirements differ from those of the sworn officer.
2. What the civilian needs to be able to do is to hit one or more assailants who are probably moving and at close range more than once each before he himself is killed or injured, without putting innocent bystanders at undue risk. Yeah, the LEO has to be able to do that, too, but he or she has to be able to do more.

While the basic skills can be practiced at a range, there is little similarity between the objective of SD shooting and those of shooting at targets and trying to minimize group size.

The LEO can use a shotgun, rifle, or carbine if he or she has one, but if the pistol must suffice, he or she will usually have available a full size semi-auto with a large magazine capacity, a full size grip, good sights and a long sight radius. The detective or the civilian carrying concealed will have to compromise on some of those attributes.

Thus, what a uniformed officer needs to do and what the civilian carrying concealed needs are not the same.

I started out carrying a .38 Special Centennial Airweight. I could conceal it rather easily, but the short sighting radius was a problem, the heavy DA pull decreased accuracy and increased my concern about stray shots, the recoil slowed follow up shots considerably, and the five shot capacity made the prospect of facing more than one assailant more worrisome than it already was.

I ended up getting a couple of semi automatics with more capacity, better triggers, larger grips, and better sights. I was surprised at how well one can conceal such weapons, and it's a fact that I can shoot them better.

Inherent accuracy wasn't the issue. It was a matter of getting two or more shots on target very quickly, having an adequate magazine capacity, and minimizing the number of misses and/or the angular "spread" of same.

And by the way, I do intend to use the sights whenever possible.

 

[9mmepiphany]

New Jersey State Police Academy, Seagirt New Jersey 1967. I also never stated that it was my only method of training, You seem to assume too much. What I did say is that, it will most likely be the method that a CCW Holder will be involved in though.

Thank you, your academy does pre-date mine by a bit over 10 years and explains your differing perspective...I went through a Calif. POST academy in 1979

I did take your advice to forget about the sights at face value and am glad you have clarified what you meant to say.

I must agree with Kleanbore that the ultimate accuracy goal, in defensive training, is the ability to get two hits on a target in a dynamic situation with your chosen handgun. I advocate sighted fire as the most cost effective way to learn this, with the ability to hit without a refined sight picture a byproduct of that practice. Shooting from retention is a more advanced skill, which is better learned after the shooter has a good understanding of correct trigger control

 

[DonRon]

Agreed, however when you are confronted with an armed aggressor, you learn in a hurry. When you are forced to take a life to keep yours is also a lesson you never forget. Once again, when the adrenaline is running wild you wont remember a thing for quite a while. Like you say " Fear is a Mind-killer ".

Regards,
Ron

 

[David E]

I really don't think a CCW holder is going to be running down a suspect with an M-1 like a LEO would have to.

Not by choice, that's for sure. But I happened to be in that area 5 minutes before it all started. It was only a few blocks from my house......what if he had lived closer?

It's not too hard to have a situation that's greater than arm's length that would require a sighted shot to end it.

Jim Cirillo DID remember seeing his front sight for each shot, one of which was a headshot, as that was the only target he had available.

I agree that point shooting is a valuable skill, but it shouldn't be the only skill, which you seem to agree with, also.

 

[Onward Allusion]

I don't think civilians are suppose take someone out at 83 yards in many cases in a SD situation. Maybe if a loved one was harmed/killed by the BG running away and even then, there's going to be hell to pay.

David E
Our dept had a situation where a badguy rifle shooter was 83 yds from the officer. Said shooter was busy engaging other officers, so this deputy took the shot. Hit him, too, and ended the situation.<SNIP>

 

[DonRon]

Knowing when to stop shooting is just as important knowing when to start. Failure to see this can turn self defense into homicide real quick. Those decisions you make in a split second are going to be analyzed and dissected by a jury for months or even years.

This is the consternation a peace officer must deal with and now it falls on the Civilian CCW holder as well. My position is, get out of shooting anyway you can even if it means running away. They did not pay me enough to be a dead hero and I can live with being a live coward.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by DonRon: Knowing when to stop shooting is just as important knowing when to start. Failure to see this can turn self defense into homicide real quick. Those decisions you make in a split second are going to be analyzed and dissected by a jury for months or even years.

Excellent point.

That's also a good reason to be adequately trained, and if it comes to that, to make sure that your defense team includes expert witnesses who can describe the dynamics of a justified shoot-out to those twelve people who do not have any understanding of the subject.

This is the consternation a peace officer must deal with and now it falls on the Civilian CCW holder as well. My position is, get out of shooting anyway you can even if it means running away. They did not pay me enough to be a dead hero and I can live with being a live coward.

I couldn't agree more.

Some states have enacted "no duty to retreat" provisions that apply outside the home. That's good, but believe me, if something comes up when I am in one of those jurisdictions, if I can retreat safely, that's exactly what I am going to do.

 

[W.E.G.]

This accurate.

 

[Buck Snort]

Kleanbore wrote: "Sounds reasonable to me at first blush---but there's the little matter of speed, and the question of what kind of accuracy and speed performance is necessary at shorter distances."

More specifically, its the speed at which you clear leather and make that first COM shot against a perp coming in fast with a razer sharp eight inch bowie knife. If you do it right you go home safely, otherwise you become an organ donor.

 

[coloradokevin]

There are a lot of complicated opinions on this subject. If you want to boil the whole subject down to a clean and easy answer, you could probably go with something like this:

Accurate enough that you can keep your shots on an 8.5"x11" sheet of paper, or a paper plate, at a distance of 5-10 yards. That will probably cover you for 99.8% of all possible defensive shoots.

Sure, more accuracy and practice is always better. But, statistically speaking, you'll be well "insured" if you can do what I described above.

 

[M2 Carbine]

How accurate should a CCW handgun be?

For me to consider a gun as a defense/carry gun, except for a few small pocket guns, the gun must be able to do at least this, night or day.

Or more to the point how accurately should a CCW holder be able to shoot their choosen firearms? I'd be interested to see what opinions are on this subject.

My requirements are that I be able to do at least the above, standing, two hands, as fast as possible.

I figure the BG will be as good (or bad ) as I am, so I continually practice with different guns, night and day, to get faster and more accurate.


Which brings up another point.
It's said that about 70% of defense shootings take place in low light. I'd guess that most shooters have never done any live fire in low light.

 

[DonRon]

You will never know until you have been there. I hope it works out as well for you as it did for me. Remember this, you will live it for the rest of your life and someone else won't live anymore. There is one thing you will never do again and that is to let your guard down ever again. There is a to be said for that saying that "fools rush in where wise men fear to tread". Caliber, Gun type Bullet type are all irrelevant.

You won't have time to get two hands on the gun friend. You will be lucky to get it out of your holster and pull the trigger with one hand.

 

[gunzee]

Since nearly all justifiable civilian self defense is at less than 5 yds, and since a man can charge 5 yds and stab/club you in 1.5 seconds, from a standing start, I suggest that you be MUCH faster with your "rapidfire" and "controlability" standards!. Anyone can shoot, stab, slash you .25 second per try (using a .22auto), with either hand, and multiple attackers are a commonplace occurance. I insist on sub .20 second repeat hits, one hand firing, at 6 ft, in a 10" circle, or 10 ft and the same, using both hands. You must get an electronic shooting timer, or at least, have access to one, or you don't have a clue what real skill is with a handgun.

 

[gunzee]

I've drawn on men 4 times, and I had time to go Weaver on all 4. Ditto the animal attacks (half a dozen, all dogs). I can go to Weaver a lot faster than most can even clear leather, especially from concealment. In fact, I can start chamber empty and do so. Most people need right at 2.0 seconds to react to the timer's "beep", make a concealed draw and reliably (5 try average) hit a 10" disk at 10 ft. I can do so in less than a second, going weaver, using a cocked and locked SA auto, from an IWB rig, at the navel, starting hands at sides, and covering the rig with a hung-out t shirt.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Buck Snort: More specifically, its the speed at which you clear leather and make that first COM shot against a perp coming in fast with a razer sharp eight inch bowie knife. If you do it right you go home safely, otherwise you become an organ donor.

Almost--but it may take two shots, or maybe three, to stop the assailant, and it is probably as likely that there will be two attackers as one.

...all of which seems to substantiate gunzee's opinion.

 

[gunzee]

Ayoob claims that it's 40% likely that there will be more than 1. However, having them there, and having them CONTINUE to attack, after they see you "burn down" their buddy is a different ball game!. (deleted -- <Sam>)