How accurate should a CCW handgun be?
- Thread starter Katana8869
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Not everyone is a bruce lee about charging leaping at you, and not everything starts at 10 ft, and not everyone has that knife ready-at hand, either. I had a guy come around a corner with a big Crescent wrench in hand, from 10 ft away. I was chamber empty, openly worn, with a 1911. Before he took more than one more step (he had stopped)
Buck Snort
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Sam1911 wrote: "The question is, have you practiced with whichever one you choose to carry enough that you can make center-of-mass hits, on multiple targets, while retreating to cover, in the very few seconds that most gun fights really span?"
I'll start working on that right after I get this "leaping over a tall building with a single bound" business down pat.
I'll start working on that right after I get this "leaping over a tall building with a single bound" business down pat.
David E
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Again, the OP essentially asked two different questions: How accurate should the GUN be and how accurate should the shooter be with the gun?
I agree that most SD situations are close up affairs, but not all of them. Hence, it's good to be able to hit a basketball at 25 yds on demand, as well as being able to hit up close.
But more importantly, it's critical to be able to hit fast. As I've said before, I'd rather take a good shot now than a perfect shot 1 second later.
Being able to handle multiple targets quickly is another dynamic often not addressed, even tho 40% of the time there are multiple assailants, many do not practice it. How to "properly" engage them is another thread topic.
Starting chamber empty is another can of worms, but it's generally not a good idea for a carry gun.
I agree that most SD situations are close up affairs, but not all of them. Hence, it's good to be able to hit a basketball at 25 yds on demand, as well as being able to hit up close.
But more importantly, it's critical to be able to hit fast. As I've said before, I'd rather take a good shot now than a perfect shot 1 second later.
Being able to handle multiple targets quickly is another dynamic often not addressed, even tho 40% of the time there are multiple assailants, many do not practice it. How to "properly" engage them is another thread topic.
Starting chamber empty is another can of worms, but it's generally not a good idea for a carry gun.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
It isn't like those skills are superman stuff. It's all pretty basic defensive shooting practice. Heck, what I described is one small part of the IDPA classifier which I think represents a pretty basic level of competency.
Exactly.
If one is in fact in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and if the use of deadly force is immediately necessary...well, the words imminent and immediately say it all. One does not have the luxury of time.
Not only that, if one really thinks about it, if one cannot do these things proficiently under stress, and if one is attacked by more than one armed violent criminal actor in a situation in which deadly force is actually justified, one's remaining uninjured would be a matter of luck.
Buck Snort
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DonRon wrote: "You won't have time to get two hands on the gun friend. You will be lucky to get it out of your holster and pull the trigger with one hand."
That's a whole mouthful of truth right there. Chances are it ain't gonna happen by the book, it'll be quick and dirty.
That's a whole mouthful of truth right there. Chances are it ain't gonna happen by the book, it'll be quick and dirty.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
That's true as far as it goes. The counterpoint to that statement, though, is that you will fight like you train. Or fight like you've trained -- IF you've trained. If you believe that you'll only have time for a "speed rock" shot (gun out of holster, rotate to horizontal, fire -- using your body index to direct the shot) then you had better practice that so you know where those shots are likely to go.
According to the statistics on the liklihood of certain kinds of encounters, that really aught to be over half of your practice. Most of us though will practice that waaaaay less than 5% of the time.
But if you can "Speed rock" from concealment in 0.8 sec. (just guessing) and get good hits on a target out to 3-5 yds great. Chances are you will find that you can finish the drawstroke, get your support hand on the gun and the sights aligned and fire in another 0.8 sec. and make good hits out to 7-10 yds. Etc.
With enough practice, you'll "fight as you've trained" and make the best presentation for any given situation. If it isn't "by the book" then you're reading (practicing) the wrong book!
The guns accuracy potential, and your ability to hit something with it are two different things. A S&W Snubby may have the potential to shoot3" at 25 yards, or better.
Your ability with it, influenced by a 16 pound DA trigger pull maybe considerably different.
Your ability with it, influenced by a 16 pound DA trigger pull maybe considerably different.
Not to be a thorn in anyone's side and at the risk of being banned, there is no guessing in a gun fight and second place sucks. That being said, an officer that I worked with was able to abate a threat with 3 shots out of a S&W model 36, 2 in revolver. Two in the ground and one in the aggressors foot did the trick.
With all due respect, there is no training for a gunfight. The bad guys don't come to the training classes and behave like you think they are going to. Just Saying!
I don't think you'd be in danger of being banned when you disagree and make points based on experience or fact. An attack on an argument or point of view is always welcome, just not an attack on the poster.
I would have to disagree about not being able to train for a gunfight. You can and should search out force on force training. While Simmunitions were all the rage at one time, it's cost became prohibitive. The current choice in force on force training is airsoft. It becomes especially enlightening when you train against people of different/no training backgrounds "Differential Training" has proved just as valuable for LE has it has for the Top Gun and Red Flag fighter pilots.
I once met and trained with the chief instructor firearms of a Nuclear Power facility...very serious folks indeed...who had just spent several thousand dollars on airsoft guns to make their training more effective
That was my first thought too. That is a pretty standard defensive drill, we now call that a Failure Drill...shortened from Failure to Stop Drill...since the political map has changed so much
Could you enlighten us on your rationale?
MikeNice
Member
This is something I have been thinking about a lot since I picked up my CCH permit on wednesday. Before I got it I was thinking that six shots between the nipples in six seconds at six yards was good enough.
Then I started thinking about a possible scenario. What if somebody was trying to abduct my child, and the child was between me and the BG? All of a sudden six shots between the nipples isn't exactly enough. I'm thinking three inch groups at 11 yards might be more or less what I'm going to be looking for from myself.
Then I started thinking about a possible scenario. What if somebody was trying to abduct my child, and the child was between me and the BG? All of a sudden six shots between the nipples isn't exactly enough. I'm thinking three inch groups at 11 yards might be more or less what I'm going to be looking for from myself.
mustang_steve
Member
accurate enough to be able to critique my technique at long distance, but easy enough to point and deploy to put a nice pattern into the target at defense distances.
You seem to have been in law enforcement. You tell me what IA and the ADA are going to think and/say about the round in the eye. I got all the Force on Force training I need in a rice paddy with live ammunition, if you get my drift. I got my Phd during the riots in Newark NJ. I am only trying to share real life experiences. You just can't prepare for everything, that's the interesting part about life. The older you get the better you will understand that!
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Just wait until you shoot a man 3 times and he just keeps coming. Now that will churn your milk for you! Just me and the wife really know how scared I really was that night, she does the laundry.
What would you do if you saw a thug mug an old lady and run off with her purse? Would you draw your gun and chase him?
MikeNice
Member
I've gotten a lot more up tight about possible danger scenarios since I had a kid. So, I've actually woke up at night with a nightmare about a similar situation (multiple shots and the guy keep coming). I can only hope that my practice can save my hide in such a situation.
My hat is off to you for holding on and surviving.
No, I would not chase the mugger. In NC that is against the law for two reasons. You are not allowed to use lethal force to detain a criminal after the fact. You are not allowed to use lethal force to prevent theft of property. If he is beating on the old lady, I would use the amount of force required to end the situation.
My hat is off to you for holding on and surviving.
No, I would not chase the mugger. In NC that is against the law for two reasons. You are not allowed to use lethal force to detain a criminal after the fact. You are not allowed to use lethal force to prevent theft of property. If he is beating on the old lady, I would use the amount of force required to end the situation.
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Good thinking. Go render aid to the poor old lady.
Now just wait until you put that kid on a bus to go to Iraq for the third time.
Life itself is a teacher and you will learn a lot if you just listen. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason.
They'd usually say, "Good Shooting"...especially with a lack of contrarian case patterns and GSR. When given an opportunity, I always target the CNS
Did your East Coast IA or ADA encourage or expect poor marksmanship?
To be very frank and blunt, we were taught to just achieve minimum qualifying scores. This way that shot in the eye would be a "Lucky Shot" I was a BM Leo. (Before Miranda).
I was on the committee that established the Marksmanship medal program in the department...I wouldn't let someone in my car, I was a Training Officer, who couldn't shoot Expert. The officers were very proud of their ability to shoot. As an adjunct, we also trained in shooting on the move and in low light.
The Failure Drill is common due to the use of body armor...just like it's origins on the battlefield
The Failure Drill is common due to the use of body armor...just like it's origins on the battlefield
I didn't have the luxury of body armor in Nam or on the job. By the time it was issued, I was behind a desk pulling short time. I did compete with revolvers, mostly a K 38 S&W, and we shot one handed extended arm. It was just an inter agency thing for bragging rights and beers.
We did not have air conditioning or seat belts in the cars either at first.
Do you remember those Sam Brown belts with the trigger guard internal clip and that swivel holster. Try to run in that garb. Better yet try to deal with a case of the runs in that garb. It still is worn on the outside of the jacket in Jersey. We never had badges either except on the cover. You took a 3 day rip for being see with out it in public.
I did compete with revolvers, mostly a K 38 S&W, and we shot one handed extended arm. It was just an inter agency thing for bragging rights and beers.We did not have air conditioning or seat belts in the cars either at first.
Do you remember those Sam Brown belts with the trigger guard internal clip and that swivel holster. Try to run in that garb. Better yet try to deal with a case of the runs in that garb. It still is worn on the outside of the jacket in Jersey. We never had badges either except on the cover. You took a 3 day rip for being see with out it in public.
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